The hype surrounding SUPER BEETLES

can someone who has more vw beetle love and experience tell me why the hype regarding buying pre superbeetle rather then superbeetle.....some say super beetles harder to find parts...harder to lower as they use macpherson system rather then drop spindle.......is it the body differnce...please someone give me your thoughts

Ummm personally i dont like the look of supers, they just look all bulbous and odd to me. thats just me though, everybody has there own thing.

personally i like the pre super models becaise tje rear lid has nicer contours and i like the horn
grills and the head and tail lights.......might sound lame but they are different than the super beetles but not taking nothing away from supers as i own one and love it

72superbug wrote:can someone who has more vw beetle love and experience tell me why the hype regarding buying pre superbeetle rather then superbeetle.....some say super beetles harder to find parts...harder to lower as they use macpherson system rather then drop spindle.......is it the body difference...please someone give me your thoughts

Sorry,
I don't like the look of Superbugs [flat screen] and hate the 1303 L beetles..
but I did own a superbug in the 70s.. was a good car..
the 1303s with their panoramic windscreen was just too different to a real beetle with a flat dash...

the superbug had a large bulging bonnet compared to the flatish non supers bonnets.. supers had about double the boot space with their flat spare wheel and redesigned fuel tank--

Many of Us prefer the torsion bar front end even though Our turning circle is larger than a superbug..
Remembering that My first beetle was a used 1959 model in the 60s.. I really like the 68-69-70 non supers..
which had the vertical headlamps disc brakes 12 volts and proper two speed wipers... these were called the New beetle in Germany in 1968...

as far as parts go... I don';t think there is any difference in the parts - Most Superbugs were sold in the USA so parts are no problem.. Supers are virtually identical to Non supers from the door hinges back... so bonnet front guards front valance etc are all different to non supers..
Windscreen is the same as a 1968-69-70 models..

Supers are now being accepted by most VW enthusiasts as they are still Beetles and all beetles are OK... and none are getting any younger...

Superbugs have the more modern Mcpherson strut front suspension which is common to most modern cars and they have the IRS [independant rear suspension] with constant velocity joint rear axles.
for track use they are popular with the IRS and struts..

So, You will be pleased to know... there isn't anything bad about them... lol

I just prefer the torsion bar front end... they are very tough..

cheers

LEE

72superbug wrote:personally i like the pre super models becaise tje rear lid has nicer contours and i like the horn
grills and the head and tail lights.......might sound lame but they are different than the super beetles but not taking nothing away from supers as i own one and love it

I have seen a few pics lately where late beetles [after 1967]
have the horn grills.. and early tail lamps..


also the front of superbugs really needs lowering about 50mm minimum for looks...

LEE

those are some nice supers.... they look ok when you put some nice wheels, a decent paint job and lower them....

as a Super owner I find it has more to do that it doesnt have a beam front end. You cant take the body off per se. You dont have pedigree.

It is definitely more a CLF (Cal Look Forum) and DKP (Der Kleiner Panzers) thing. Google them.
The Europeans lover the Supperbeetles (1302 & 1303). Supers are moe adaptable to the Porsce, Remmele & kevlar look

10-15 years ago when SBO forum started it grew HUGE. That then joined with Shop Talk
That is where i found the almost apartheid attitude.

My first beetle was a 1964 - but that was back in 1979.
I have only driven 1303's since then

Most of the general public don't even pick the visual difference between supers or standards till it's pointed out let alone know there were actually 2 different models.

Superbugs are one of the easiest to get parts for in Aus as they were so common.
Nearly all the bugs sold in the 70s were superbugs as they got disc brakes, 1600 engine, IRS, bigger boot etc when the cheaper standard bugs only had 1300, swing axle and 4 wheel drums, less trim and boot space for a toothbrush, so there's alot more of Supers around but rust in the floor pans and back pillars from the death foam was the big killer.

Agree with Mick, it takes the right stance and rims to get a super looking right, a bog stock one is very plain, but so are all standard 68 on bugs when left standard.

I was an early beetle snob originally for the visual appeal, but once I got bitten by the performance bug so to speak I realised the handling of Mcpherson strut front end still used in todays new cars can be developed so much further than the old 30s designed torsion bar layout.
There's a good reason nearly all the Germanlookers are based on strut bugs.

The beam front end has it's limitations and the curved screen of Lbugs has big aerodynamic advantages as well as the safety aspects.

Being a more complex front end means more to go wrong and the old timers that are more familiar with the torsion bar front end generally don't know where to start when things like the 50mph shimmy starts so they get a bad rap for that especially when the basic beam front end thrives on neglect.

Supers were made for upcoming USA safety laws... especially the 1303... but most of the safety laws didn't eventuate so the 1976 beetle was a NON Super although Karmann kept making the Karmann cabriolet beetles using 1303S parts... until they stopped making them.

Its just a personal thing really... I couldn't tell the difference between a superbug [1302] and normal beetle for many many years.. lol..

I suppose You could say that non supers are old school..???
whereas the supers are more modern especially the 1303..
interesting that only approx 1600 1303s were ever sold in the UK..
and hundreds of thousands in North America..
Performance wise road holding the Supers have it all...

if You are just using as an a daily or weekly driver then any will do... lol..

A done up 1303 really looks modern ...

just My thoughts

LEE

I'm not a fan of fat chicks 🤪 😂

We have one of each 😂😂
as long as the cars are well maintain they are all good to drive.

I have loved the look of supers from when they first came out - I reckon they look more 'muscly' and touigher.

The older beetles look more 'feminine', if that is the right word? IMHO

h wrote:I'm not a fan of fat chicks 🤪 😂

That one always sparks interesting debate from the people who thought fat chick only meant Super Beetles.

Just for those who don't know fat chick refers too all late model VWs be it 68 on bugs, bay window kombis, late type 3, KGs etc, not just Super beetles.

^nono no debate required 😂

Well you're no bloody fun then.

I spent most of my formative years in a super that my mum had, great car and with a stance adjustment they look the "shizzle".

i prefer the lines of the older models tho IMHO, and as much of a pig as mines been to get back on the road i wouldn't swap it for anything. i sold my WRX just to buy it, you can say that i have bugs in the brain (or whats left of it)😂

Lee they sold plenty of strut bugs in the UK. However for the UK market from 1971 the choice was only the basic 1200 torsion bar Beetle, or the basic 1300cc strut Beetle with front drums and low-back seats (called the 1302 or 1303, dependng on the year). The 1600cc disk brake strut Beetle (called the 1302S or 1303S) was only available by special order and was rather more expensive. It's THIS version that didn't sell many, and probably what you're thinking of. Find a copy of 'Safer Motoring', January 1974. Peter Noad tests a new UK-spec 1300c drum brake 1303.

The US market got the deluxe strut Beetle with 1600cc engine, but it wasn't a 1302S or 1303S as the US cars had front drums. Volkswagen of America sold them as the 'Super Beetle.'

Australia also never saw the basic 1300cc strut Beetle (1302 or 1303). Here our basic 1300cc Beetle was torsion bar with drums and swing axles. Ours were a bit like like the Euro 1302S and 1303S, but they were made in Melbourne and painted in Datsun paint colours. Ours were sold as the Superbug S, and the Superbug L. Volkswagen called their rear the 'double joint' rear end, NOT 'IRS'. Swing axle is also 'IRS.'

The 1975 Superbug L was just the second VW on our market to have self-stabilising steering geometry, called Negative Steering Roll Radius. Only the Passat had it earlier.

If I had to have a bug it would be a 1303 done up as a german looker.

Nothing good in early bugs imho.

oh and super have Mc pherson strut which is pure F**king EPIC WIN! 🤓

vlad01 wrote:oh and super have Mc pherson strut which is pure F**king EPIC WIN! 🤓

Only on road they are....


Smiley 🙂

Yes your point?

I was going to say a standard bug front end looks like something off a massey furguson 😵‍💫

Just saying that there are horses for courses. There's no way that a Superbug could keep up with my tractor front end Baja on a rough track without destroying itself.

So they may be pure epic win in one respect, and absolute epic fail in another.

just goes to show that there's not a be all and end all.



Smiley 🙂

vlad01 wrote:If I...
....Nothing good in early bugs imho.
....🤓

eye test is in order so you can see the slender figures 😂
book it in quick n you can see the light!!
(it can be bulk billed) 😵‍💫

Smiley wrote:Just saying that there are horses for courses. There's no way that a Superbug could keep up with my tractor front end Baja on a rough track without destroying itself.

So they may be pure epic win in one respect, and absolute epic fail in another.

just goes to show that there's not a be all and end all.



Smiley 🙂

bugs were built as road cars, thats just how I see it anyways.

Kinda stupid compairing the 3 suspention setups on different surfaces to eachother and surfaces the car was never intended for when it left the factory.

Its like saying "well my 4x4 is better at handling than that model of 4x4, well its better on road than yours though"

the argument is invalid 😂

h wrote:

vlad01 wrote:If I...
....Nothing good in early bugs imho.
....🤓

eye test is in order so you can see the slender figures 😂
book it in quick n you can see the light!!
(it can be bulk billed) 😵‍💫

Nup, sorry mate. Super is way cooler 😉 for a bug anyway.

I have a Super and a 69, Super is registered, 69 in pieces, therefore Super ftw

Smiley wrote:Just saying that there are horses for courses. There's no way that a Superbug could keep up with my tractor front end Baja on a rough track without destroying itself.



Smiley 🙂

No but surely it would be fun trying 😂

Phil74Camper wrote:Lee they sold plenty of strut bugs in the UK. However for the UK market from 1971 the choice was only the basic 1200 torsion bar Beetle, or the basic 1300cc strut Beetle with front drums and low-back seats (called the 1302 or 1303, dependng on the year). The 1600cc disk brake strut Beetle (called the 1302S or 1303S) was only available by special order and was rather more expensive. It's THIS version that didn't sell many, and probably what you're thinking of. Find a copy of 'Safer Motoring', January 1974. Peter Noad tests a new UK-spec 1300c drum brake 1303.

The US market got the deluxe strut Beetle with 1600cc engine, but it wasn't a 1302S or 1303S as the US cars had front drums. Volkswagen of America sold them as the 'Super Beetle.'

Australia also never saw the basic 1300cc strut Beetle (1302 or 1303). Here our basic 1300cc Beetle was torsion bar with drums and swing axles. Ours were a bit like like the Euro 1302S and 1303S, but they were made in Melbourne and painted in Datsun paint colours. Ours were sold as the Superbug S, and the Superbug L. Volkswagen called their rear the 'double joint' rear end, NOT 'IRS'. Swing axle is also 'IRS.'

The 1975 Superbug L was just the second VW on our market to have self-stabilising steering geometry, called Negative Steering Roll Radius. Only the Passat had it earlier.

Yes, I've just been reading a book from the UK beetles from 1968> very interesting... I threw all My safer motor mags out a few years ago... still have one from 1974..
That may have been the case with the 1303 in the UK..
they may have mentioned the cost [1600 engines]
the book calls engine horsepower something like 34PS or 40PS which means nothing to Me... but the 1200 and 1300 were the biggest sellers... probably because of the cost of the cars plus the high cost of fuel over there.

the late 1303s with the negative steering radius was that because of the rack & pinion steering??
Yes, I've seen pics of Datsuns beetles type 3s and Volvos all the same colors on the production line... local ex VW mechanic said they made trucks there too... I think Mercedes or MAN.. can't remember.. He did tell Me that only VWs were dipped into the paint ... the others weren;'t ... lol

cheers

LEE


PS: couldn't sleep... 2.13am.. lol

I'm a fan of both!

vlad01 wrote:bugs were built as road cars, thats just how I see it anyways.

Kinda stupid compairing the 3 suspention setups on different surfaces to eachother and surfaces the car was never intended for when it left the factory.

Its like saying "well my 4x4 is better at handling than that model of 4x4, well its better on road than yours though"

the argument is invalid 😂

It's not invalid. I'm just saying that it's not a useless form of suspension. I'm well aware that Macpherson strut is superior in most ways, but tractor front ends have been going strong for a good +75 years now. And as far as the not intended for offroad use goes, for a car that was designed for the autobahns, Porsche did a remarkable job of producing a suspension design that was destined to win the Baja 1000 offroad race 😀

Arpspasm wrote:No but surely it would be fun trying 😂

You can come up my way for a play anytime you want 😀

tar76 wrote:I'm a fan of both!

So am I. They're all VWs at the end of the day, and that's why we're all all here. If they were all the same there's no variety, how boring a place would this be??


Smiley 🙂

Yes Lee, the UK vw market had some strange things going on in the early 1970s, and it's interesting to read period VW magazines to see what was going on.

The UK had a bigger VW range to choose from than us. Apart from the torsion bar standard 1200 Beetle and strut 1300 Beetle, they also had the VW 412 range and the VW 'Caravan' - what they called the Kombi in those days. They also had the VW K70, and the new Passat range, and the Scirocco TS, with the Golf just around the corner, the Type 3 having just been phased out. Most of the letters to Safer Motoring were complaining about VW's switch to front-engine front-drive. It was a very tough decision at the time, but in hindsight there is no doubt VW made the right choice. Their air-cooled sales were in permanent decline and they were hundreds of millions in the red. VW would have gone bankrupt if not for the Golf/Passat; by 1976 VW AG was back in the black and today are the second-biggest car company in the world.

'PS' is the German word for horsepower, which stands for 'PferdeStarke'. It's DIN horsepower, which includes all the ancilliaries on the motor. SAE horsepower, which was used in the US and Australia, is 'raw' horsepower without the ancilliaries. So SAE gives a higher figure. The famous '40 horse' 1200, for example, is 40-bhp SAE but only 34-hp (or 34 PS) DIN. Likewise the 1600 was 60 bhp SAE but 50-hp DIN. Nowadays the DIN values are the standard in all metric countries and the figures are in kW - like the 155 kW Golf GTI. You multiply the DIN HP figure by 0.746 to convert to kilowatts, or divide kW by 0.746 to get DIN HP. There's no conversion for SAE because it's a different measurement.

Yes the Clayton factory also assembled Mercedes trucks, but not MAN. Nowadays Volkswagen AG owns MAN (and Scania too).

Smiley wrote:It's not invalid. I'm just saying that it's not a useless form of suspension. I'm well aware that Macpherson strut is superior in most ways, but tractor front ends have been going strong for a good +75 years now. And as far as the not intended for offroad use goes, for a car that was designed for the autobahns, Porsche did a remarkable job of producing a suspension design that was destined to win the Baja 1000 offroad race 😀

Smiley 🙂

Possibly part of his design brief was to produce a car that was more of a part of a war machine than "the peoples car"?

Arpspasm wrote:Possibly part of his design brief was to produce a car that was more of a part of a war machine than "the peoples car"?

Actually it was more like 'a robust cheap and reliable vehicle, able to cruise at a sustained 100km/h' 👍

I used to be a pre-68 lover myself, but when I got my 1303S (L bug) I was converted.
The curved front screen, I don't know how I would live without it.

MacPhersun strut front end is also good. When wheel aligned and everything.
Occasionally I get the "super bug shimmy" at 60km/h or even 50km/h, but that's probably because I tend to fly around corners at 3am and I've probably got no more tred on my front tires...

I wouldn't change Zelda for anything now. I've considered selling her but I think that'd be wrong. She'll be my first bug and I won't sell her ever.

hmm, the robust-ness of the torsion bar motion compared to strut when it comes to 'offroad' is excellent 🙂

I can drive up square gutters on the road at 20kmh with my torsion bar front and rear with no worries, crazy massive whacks or smashes because the torsion bar retracts and dampens in both an up and down motion and a backward motion. Damping both vertical and horizontal displacement.

I can't see my mates strut bug being capable of doing that 😀 👍. Mind you his strut bug handled the road/highway and corners fantastically. I was envious of that!

That's where the old torsion bar front end really shines.
Being so simple and robust makes it perfect for offroad.

The problem with them on the road is you can't get a progressive spring rate from Torsion leaves like you can a coil springs which is why the strut front end has the better ride quality over bumps, they're just not as strongly built so suck at harsh offroading.

A good comparison.

bajachris88 wrote:I can drive up square gutters on the road at 20kmh with my torsion bar front and rear with no worries, crazy massive whacks or smashes

Perfect for driving home pissed 😂


PS
AVD encourages responsible consumption of alchol and only doing burnouts on a day ending in a "Y" 🙅

news IS THEY AINT SUPER

Bizarre wrote:PS
AVD encourages responsible consumption of alchol and only doing burnouts on a day ending in a "Y" 🙅

Ahahaha that is gold!

vw54 wrote:news IS THEY AINT SUPER

Well according to my rego papers mine is SUPERB 😉

VOLKSW SUPERB to be precise.

Awesomeness!
🙂

That's a great video you posted Joel. Really shows the difference in suspension.

Now which car would handle it better if the bumps were twice or 3 times the size? 🤘



Smiley 🙂

A jeep

haha, my mates Hilux surf has Torsion bar at the fronts. but in an A arm geometry. i was amazed 🙂

Most Forbys are like that, my Navara is the same

Did they make Beetles after 1967??

Yes, but you probably haven't heard about them, they are reserved for a small bunch of elite drivers and important people.

"""" Well according to my rego papers mine is SUPERB

VOLKSW SUPERB to be precise. """

You wouldnt expect anything different from the NSW RTA

PHAT BUG wrote:Did they make Beetles after 1967??

hahaha

I'm not a fan of anything built after 67. The lines and curves just don't look right, and I love the simplicity of the early models.
The big square bumpers look awful too. Even on Kombis, I prefer Lowlight models as to the later bay

Hi

Not wanting to get all hippy, but why hate a particular model car.

If you don't like a super don't buy one. I don't like some aspects of other VW models but I don't get myself all worked up about it and post hateful things about them apart from mentioning how agricultural a beam front end is in response to jibes about supers and anybody that pays mega bucks for a split Kombi must have not driven the car before purchase.

Having owned an Oval and few 60s bugs, a Type 3, a 1302 and now a 1303 I've found that they all have things I'm not happy with. The behind dash wiring on a 1303 is a joke for example.

I reckon my old 1302 looked great with its aero kit and my sons 1303 is a nice looking car.

Steve

Bizarre wrote:PS
AVD encourages responsible consumption of alchol and only doing burnouts on a day ending in a "Y" 🙅

😂

FATTYS need to go on a diet 😂