I am going to have a go at an ej22 into a 71 lowlight. First of all I am no mechanic , sometimes even that kombi sliding door puzzles me! So this will be a challenge for me
So just starting to plan everything
I have got my ej22 with ecu and loom. I will soon go see John Sherman for an adaptor. Still researching on cooling.
Question I have.
Can I leave the throttle body as it is or do I have to do some modification ?
I was thinking I can just use a right angle hose adaptor, however I do not know if this does get obstructed by the fuel tank firewall.
I have heard of people reversing the manifold but I don't want to do that because I want to keep the aircon compressor in place for future.
I really appreciate hearing from someone how has done this
thx paul
pete wood ·
Custom Vee Dub in Brisbane sell a 180deg adaptor for turning the throttle body around. Trust me and get one of those. Makes life a lot easier.
Klaus ·
and run a 2ltr box as youll rev too much with a 1600 box at freeway speeds
Sunnyjim ·
hi klaus
thx for the advice , every little bit helps
currently with the stock 1600cc and 3 rib I think 100kmh = 3100rpms
what do u think it would be with a ej22?
pete wood ·
Yeah, that's wishful thinking. I reckon it's more like 4100rpm.
Sunnyjim ·
pete , you might be right, my wife alway says I am wrong
it is my sons kombi i will ask him to jot it down next time he crusies at 100kmh
Klaus ·
revs at 100kmh will be the same no matter what engine is fitted, a rotary would suit a stock 1600 box 🙂
Sunnyjim ·
question to those in the know
as I have not bought an engine adaptor , flywheel or clutch do I go the adaptor or smallcar or rjes bellhousing
I want to get going with the stock 3 rib , take it gentle but maybe later get a 2 litre gear box , so I was thinking of making sure the clutch and flywheel would suit
whats the pros and cons?
Joel ·
Adapters work fine but the bellhousing is a much more elegant and better thought out solution.
You're retaining all the stock subaru clutch and flywheel parts and AFAIK the bellhousing is interchangable with the different kombi boxes but someone else will chime in and yay or nay that one.
11CAB ·
I've got an RJES Bellhousing, using the stock Subaru flywheel and pressure plate, and enables you to use the kombi 228mm clutch plate. The bellhousing will bolt up to any kombi gearbox from 1968-1992. Also let's you use the standard Subaru starter motor.
And Richard from RJES is very helpful and easy to deal with
Subarugears ·
Of course none of those solutions gets you the nice 5 speed and correct revs that the Subarugears reversed 5 speed does - perfectly matched to your motor.
Sunnyjim ·
11cab
thanks for the reply , it all helps me learn as I go a long.
as I have not yet got a flywheel or clutch, I have the ej22 and a stock 3 rib 71 bus gearbox , I want to get a set up that I could re-use down the track if I did replace my stock 3 rib with a 2 litre gearbox or win the lottery and get a subie 5 spd special
am I right if I get a rjes bellhousing I can use a subie clutch and subie flywheel or a stock vw 1600cc one? In this way I am really keeping my options open? However if I dont change the bellhousing I am limited and have to buy a smaller VW clutch and vw fywheel which may be redundant later on?
The other way was a sherman adaptor , but find a a 2 litre bellhousing now and put it on the 3 rib gearbox, I think this then means I could use the bigger 2 litre clutch and flywheel.
is there anything wrong with this approach ?
Other than putting ej22 power through a stock 1600cc box?
Todd , I like the idea of your subie 5 speed, I am saving that idea for my bucket list ultimate find EZ30/s 5 speed subie into a 62 bus project.
Subarugears ·
Sunnyjim don't worry about saving up for the ultimate gearbox and an EZ30 - do this first EJ22 conversion right.
Price up the cost of an RJES bellhousing landed, shortened sump, shortened exhaust headers, new flywheel and clutch and let's see what it comes out to.
You don't need any of these things with a Subarugears conversion - and I bet I can do you a combo for that price.
CHALLENGE!!
Sunnyjim ·
todd
i am still learning
I won't lower this 71 bus , so why do i need to spend extra on shortened headers and a shortened sump? I currently was able to scavenge the exhaust headers from the donor car so was just going to get a muffler added on and the ej22 already has a standard sump on it .
Thanks for your interest am I am very happy to hear to pros and cons , I want to make sure I explore all avenues before spending the $
Subarugears ·
Sunnyjim - happy to go through the exercise - no dramas whatsoever.
I'm sure you know the pros and cons - new 5 speed with correct gearing for your engine's torque curve vs old 4 speed with incorrect gearing for your torque curve and lots of revs in top gear- it's just about price now isn't it?
If you fit an EJ22 to the VW box you will/should/might need to shorten the sump and the exhaust headers as they hang pretty low.
The entry and exit angles are a challenge on buses. You might get away with the std exhaust headers...
Like I said - add up the total costs of everything landed and let's see. Don't forget the different input shaft from RJES as well.
Do you need to buy a different thermostat housing and radiator hose as they hang down pretty low as well when an ej22 is on a VW box?
11CAB ·
You only need the different input shaft for the RJES bellhousing if you want to use the Subaru 225mm clutch plate. If you use the kombi input shaft you can use a kombi 228mm clutch plate
Bone ·
Like 11CAB I also am in the process of fitting a EJ22 to a 1800cc kombi box (baja) and also am using the RJES bellhousing kit. I have used the subaru pressure plate and flywheel but have the 228mm kombi clutch plate as I have retained the standard vw input shaft. I can certainly see the practicality of the subi 5 speed ! (maybe next baja if I had the coin)
Subarugears ·
Coin schmoin. I am going to put out a range of super entry level 5 speeds for all you EJ22 converters. You shouldn't have to put up with poorly geared 4 speeds for your nice engines.
Sunnyjim ·
Todd you might be on a winner if you can do that!
Sunnyjim ·
continuing my hunt for bits and pieces , got myself a subaru clutch and pressure plate today.
I now need to get a flywheel, Does anyone know if a non turbo ej20 flywheel is the same as an 1989 liberty EJ22 one?
seems I could easily go and buy the wrong one.
pete wood ·
Bone wrote:Like 11CAB I also am in the process of fitting a EJ22 to a 1800cc kombi box (baja) and also am using the RJES bellhousing kit. I have used the subaru pressure plate and flywheel but have the 228mm kombi clutch plate as I have retained the standard vw input shaft. I can certainly see the practicality of the subi 5 speed ! (maybe next baja if I had the coin)
Take it from me. Don't waste time and money with an 1800 box. I blew my up being nice to it. Save up the money get one of Todd's boxes from the outset... wish I had... 🥲
p.s. course it's his fault for hurrying the heck up 😬
11CAB ·
Sunnyjim wrote:got myself a subaru clutch and pressure plate today.
You need a kombi 228mm clutch plate not Subaru
Subarugears ·
11CAB wrote:
Sunnyjim wrote:got myself a subaru clutch and pressure plate today.
You need a kombi 228mm clutch plate not Subaru
Whoops, guess you'll have to go with the Subi box now muahahahahaha 😎
nils ·
Psst...... hate to hijack just a little, how are those 4.44 gearsets coming along todd? 😏
Subarugears ·
nils wrote:Psst...... hate to hijack just a little, how are those 4.44 gearsets coming along todd? 😏
Yep they are done and here. I only got an initial batch of 5 done so that we could fit them to some cars and test them out, make sure everything is OK and see how they drive. All 5 sets already accounted for and being built into transmissions as we speak. If they come up good I will do a production run so should have them in stock by December.
Also doing 5 sets of 4.86:1 at the moment for the same process. They should be here in a month.
Let's get this thread back on track.....
nils ·
OK like we said back to the throttle body, trying to remember the firewall/tank cover in my lowlight. Is it as close to the engine as the beetle firewall? I think so, the bell housing pretty much makes a nice straight line with the firewall, yeah?
I really can't see anyone getting away with leaving the throttle body where it is without modifing the cover, (always an option i suppose?) I'm not quite sure what you mean by the 180 degree fouling your aircon, guess i will find out in the next few months if that is the case 😠
The 90 degree you are suggesting , going up? or to the side?
The green line represents when the fire wall would be, so that all the creative minds can visualis better
Joel ·
nils wrote:I'm not quite sure what you mean by the 180 degree fouling your aircon, guess i will find out in the next few months if that is the case 😠
The 90 degree you are suggesting , going up? or to the side?
You cant flip the manifold if you want A/C as the compressor and Idle Control valve clash with it reversed.
That was the main reason I didn't flip mine.
I first made a 90 degree elbow for my throttle body.
No good in a bug as the decklid spring doesnt clear.
The 180 degree bend works well in a bus though, thats what Elusive and Helbus are running and I'm sure plenty of others.
Sunnyjim ·
Nils and Joel
thanks for the replies guys, the pictures really help
Joel - What I mean about "the 180 degree fouling your aircon " was i heard the ej22 throttle body will hit the fuel tank firewall in a lowlight . I had heard someone did remove the entire manifold assembly spin it 180degrees , the throttle body then points out to the back of the kombi not the front. this solves that problem. However then I think the aircon compressor position is a problem. This works if u dont want aircon, I eventually want aircon.
Most of ths is still theory for me as I have not removed the aircooled donk from the kombi yet. I am making sure i have all the bits lines up.
As CVD is out of the subie conversion business I am still looking for that throttle body adaptor.
Does anyone know where I can get one from ?
Sunnyjim ·
Joel does it have to be a metal adaptor? Not sure I could fabricate
Could I use one of those blue air inlet adaptors I see in repco/autobarn/supadumb?
I was thinking as long as the seal is good that is the main thing, then it woudl not matter if it did even squish a little against the fuel tank firewall
i tried to send a pm to lovebuggy, not really sure if it worked as I cannot see any SENT ITEMS folder.
If anyone know the lovebuggy pls let him know
i also sent an e-mailto the manx site
thx
BlueV2 ·
You can also get this done and it will solve your problems.
nils ·
^^^^^^^^^
Oh cool! wish I had bought a ac/dc tig now 😂
BlueV2 ·
I had it done. There is a fair bit of work in it.
Sunnyjim ·
Hey blue
That looks serious hardware.
How much? And where from?
BlueV2 ·
It cost $500. Paul from Manx Australia did it. If you need his contact details, let me know.
Sunnyjim ·
thanks mate
I've got in touch with manx
paul
Sunnyjim ·
Guys - thanks for the help , I got a reply from manx on the throttle body reverser.
Now I need to decide which I go on the engine adaptor.
Currently the 1600c cc donk drives nicely through the stock 3 rib box. It just leaks oil and has no power. The gearbox shift is smooth. The reason for the change is the think the engine needs a rebuild and I don't see the value spending in 3k or more on 50hp of aircooled. I now have a good ej22 with new loom and ECU, I have a subie clutch, pressure plate and subie flywheel
My 3 options
1. Subagears 5 speed box, this sounds the ultimate approach but I don't have and can’t justify 4k upwards.
2. Volksconversion - I think for a little over $1,000 I get the adaptor plate , new flywheel and new clutch. I think I can do this myself. Disadvantage, I cannot re-use either the stock vw clutch or the subie EJ22 clutch. I also cannot resuse either of my vw or subie flywheels. Advantage, I Think I can reuse my new hi torque vw starter motor and this adaptor kit is locally sourced and John seems real helpful.
3. RJES Bellhousing adaptor – Richard Jones has also been helpful explaining to me the options.
I have 2 options
a) Stay with subie clutch/pressure plate/ flywheel and buy new Subaru splined gearbox input shaft I still need to buy a subie starter motor.
for bellhousing, clutch release shaft, Subaru splined gearbox input shaft shipping to Brisbane £650 or A $1,010 plus a new subie starter motor $250= $1,260
b)Keep vw gearbox spline shaft as it is and just buy a new vw 228mm clutch for bellhousing , clutch release shaft, shipping to Brisbane £500 or A $776 plus a new subie starter motor $250 and new VW 228 mm clutch $300 = $1,326
Experts please tell me the best approach?
I hope to hear from someone who has been through this already?
I have heard a few people say a new bellhousing is better technically than an adaptor but I don’t know why? Also I am not sure of the technical merits of putting in a new Subie splined gearbox input shaft into a VW gearbox. Is this is a good idea or not? As I want to do this myself how hard is this do do? If I ever wanted to sell the 3 rib and get a 2 litre I assume it is best the keep that VW 3 rib stock?
nils ·
There is a second hand subi conversion set on offroadracing.com for $500 at the moment 😉
Sunnyjim ·
thanks Nils
I had a look , I think that is without a clutch ? so it is inly 200$ less than brand new. I don't think I will chase it
Do you have any opinions on RJES verssu Volksconversions?
nils ·
I really like the idea of the RJES bellhousing for the neatness of it, it uses the subi starter then?
Probably ask Graham (cab11) I'm pretty sure he is using one, For the pro's and cons of the different styles
Depending on how mechanically minded you are, If you do the reverse ring and pinion yourself it works out pretty much the same dollars again
Bone ·
Go RJES bellhousing. I'm 3/4 through my ej conversion and am very happy with the bellhousing kit for neatness ect ect.
Using the subi starter (manual) subi flywheel, subi p/plate and subi throwout bearing. Clutch plate is the 228mm kombi.
Worked out better $$$ wise going this way rather than the adaptor kit + cranky starter kit ect. I had a manual 92 liberty as a donor car for the all the bits.
Sunnyjim ·
Hi Bone
What vehicle are you putting the Ej22 into?
I understand what u say about the Rjes looking neater, but so far I can't see any way it is technically better than the adaptor, please let me know?
If I go with an adaptor I can re-use my new Hi- torque VW starter and not have to buy a subie starter. (unless I find that the new hi-torque VW starter is then not suitable) I also avoid replacing a throw out bearing.
I guess it would be easier if I can see both configurations right in front of me, a bit simpler for me to then understand.
11CAB ·
The RJES bellhousing is better for a conversion in the fact that it uses more standard Subaru components. Flywheel, pressure plate, Throwout bearing, starter motor. This may not be for you since you don't have these bits, but the donor Liberty I got was a manual, so I have all those bits.
The bellhousing also let's you use a 228mm clutch plate which is bigger than the standard Subaru 225mm plate, and as far as I'm aware, all the adaptor plates only let you use a 200mm plate with the hybrid flywheel.
The bellhousing also uses the standard Subaru dowel pins to align the engine to the box. I've seen some adaptor plates incorrectly machined or not having the locating ring and they've been out of alignment.
Bone ·
Sunnyjim wrote:Hi Bone
What vehicle are you putting the Ej22 into?
I understand what u say about the Rjes looking neater, but so far I can't see any way it is technically better than the adaptor, please let me know?
If I go with an adaptor I can re-use my new Hi- torque VW starter and not have to buy a subie starter. (unless I find that the new hi-torque VW starter is then not suitable) I also avoid replacing a throw out bearing.
I guess it would be easier if I can see both configurations right in front of me, a bit simpler for me to then understand.
Sunnyjim maybe the adaptor is a better solution for you as you dont need to buy the subi parts . I had a sherman adaptor with a EA81 subi in my baja until recently and didn't have a issue with it and found the EA81 engine super reliable with the electric ignition. My ej22 is going into the same baja.
BlueV2 ·
Hi Sunnyjim. I sent you a PM the other day, did you get it ?
Joel ·
11CAB wrote:as far as I'm aware, all the adaptor plates only let you use a 200mm plate with the hybrid flywheel.
The bellhousing also uses the standard Subaru dowel pins to align the engine to the box. I've seen some adaptor plates incorrectly machined or not having the locating ring and they've been out of alignment.
Sherman can do the 215mm Kombi clutch instead of the 200mm and also his adapters have the Subaru dowel pins as well as the bellhousing locating ring.
vlad01 ·
BlueV2 wrote:You can also get this done and it will solve your problems.
this this effect the way it ran?
BlueV2 ·
Hi Vlad, I dont know yet. My plan is to put this motor in next week, however I know of another buggy that has had this done and it didn't seem to make any difference to performance.
Joel ·
If theres no leaks it will work fine, its only drawing in air and the AFM is still measuring how much or MAP sensor working manifold pressure out which ever it may be, it doesnt care where the throttle body is.
Roach did similar on his bug and it works sweet.
Sunnyjim ·
joel
thanks for the piccy
Am i right that is more than just a new throttle body adaptor? looks like a special manifold?
Joel ·
It's just a stock manifold but its had all the unnecessary mounts removed to clean it up and a plate tigged on top to mount the throttle body to, and obviously the old throttle body hole plated over.
vlad01 ·
BlueV2 wrote:Hi Vlad, I dont know yet. My plan is to put this motor in next week, however I know of another buggy that has had this done and it didn't seem to make any difference to performance.
I recon that would cause air distribution problems.
its a killer resemblance to the (band aided, pulled from FWD model & stuffed into RWD car) manifold design in my daily bomb which causes rough idle and up to 1500rpm roughness. it was fixed in the next generation engine which had a 100% manifold redesign so it didn't include an side ways elbow like pictured on your engine.
I could be wrong, it may have little effect but it may cause some roughness.
keep me posted as I would like to see the results. 🙂
Sunnyjim ·
So I have moved ahead
I now have a new reversed throttle body kit , a sherman engine adaptor new flywheel and clutch kit.
I am now committed ( or they say I should be )
BlueV2 ·
vlad01 wrote:
BlueV2 wrote:Hi Vlad, I dont know yet. My plan is to put this motor in next week, however I know of another buggy that has had this done and it didn't seem to make any difference to performance.
I recon that would cause air distribution problems.
its a killer resemblance to the (band aided, pulled from FWD model & stuffed into RWD car) manifold design in my daily bomb which causes rough idle and up to 1500rpm roughness. it was fixed in the next generation engine which had a 100% manifold redesign so it didn't include an side ways elbow like pictured on your engine.
I could be wrong, it may have little effect but it may cause some roughness.
keep me posted as I would like to see the results. 🙂
Hi Vlad, I now have this setup working (slight delay with replacing the engine, but that is another story), but this setup works really well I certainly can't feel any difference between this and what I had before. Car idles correctly (maybe a bit low) but it is smooth enough, so I don't feel that the modified manifold has caused any performance or smoothness issues.
vlad01 ·
interesting that. guess it depends on other factors too.
Sunnyjim ·
hi all
This thread is about us putting an ej22 into a 71 lowlight kombi
I am still collecting bits.
I was thinking of an engine mount bracket. Does anyone know someone who makes these and can supply me one?
I can have ago at making my own but is this case i reckon the welds need to be very good , better than my welding ability
thanks
paul
ian.mezz ·
most jobs vary, so best to get all in and together hoseses, exhaust etc and make mounts etc in situ as you go.
Sunnyjim wrote:hi all
This thread is about us putting an ej22 into a 71 lowlight kombi
I am still collecting bits.
I was thinking of an engine mount bracket. Does anyone know someone who makes these and can supply me one?
I can have ago at making my own but is this case i reckon the welds need to be very good , better than my welding ability
thanks
paul
Sunnyjim ·
Ian – thx for the advice
Another problem- I have a 76 bay with and subie ej25 installed running dual fuel. Had it for about 3 years . It recently has developed a hot start problem, starts when cold, drive for a while the wont restart when the engine is hot. I can leave it for about 30mins to 1 hour and it will restart.
Google tells me this is not uncommon with ej25/22/20s.The culprits have been sensors such as , crank, camshaft, water temp, speed . To complicate things, it now won’t run at all on petrol only lpg.
Advice welcome on how to diagnose? Someone said use some cold spray and try it on the sensors when the engine is hot and won’t start.
I am willing to give it a go but in case, Can anyone recommend a real good mechanic in the brisbane area that’s knows subie ej25 ECU system?
pete wood ·
Crank angle sensor. Did it in my Ej25 buggy for a while. Then one day it wouldn't start at all. ECU gave me the code and I replaced it. All the codes are on the forum here in the resources sticky.
Sunnyjim ·
Pete
Thanks for the reply.
I will look.at that
can u tell me the best way to look up the error codes on this ej25
Can i use one of those obd scanners or do i wire up a Led to the check light?
Sunnyjim ·
some progress
I got the adaptor plate on nicely
flywheel went on. do I need washers? the Sherman kit did not come with them?
no bolts came with the clutch pressure plate, does anyone know what type I need?
vlad01 ·
pete wood wrote:Crank angle sensor. Did it in my Ej25 buggy for a while. Then one day it wouldn't start at all. ECU gave me the code and I replaced it. All the codes are on the forum here in the resources sticky.
those symptoms are also characteristic of leaking injectors. I would look at them also.
Sunnyjim ·
hey vlad
yeah I am open to suggestions. not sure the best way to check injectors
I just replaced the crank sensor , that did not fix it . I also checked the impedance , the old one is the same as the new one
paul
Sunnyjim ·
| guess the wise thing to do is to wire up a check light and learn morse code to read it.
Sunnyjim ·
I have started cleaning up the wiring loomand wrapping the black corrigated hoes around the loom.
I had to replace some black hoses as well.
I have 1 loose end and don't know where it goes.
have a look, it is the connector down near the flywheel.
it is a water hose and either end goes to the cylinder head
Sunnyjim ·
Joel ·
They aren;t coolant hoses, they are oil breathers, for the rocker covers and the case breather, that T needs to feed into your intake between the air flow meter and the throttle body.
Sunnyjim ·
Hi JOEL,
Thanks for the quick reply.
That makes a lot more sense now.
Sunnyjim ·
JOEL,
Let Me pick your brains again..
I am a fair way from installing the engine in the lowight engine bay
Can you tell me where exactly I connect my Kombi brake booster hose to the ej22
Manifold?
mackaymanx ·
You can see it hear to the left of the idle control valve.
Sunnyjim wrote:JOEL,
Let Me pick your brains again..
I am a fair way from installing the engine in the lowight engine bay
Can you tell me where exactly I connect my Kombi brake booster hose to the ej22
Manifold?
You cam just use the stock subaru brake booster fitting if it's the right size for the Kombi hose.
It is the one circled on the right
vlad01 ·
Sunnyjim wrote:hey vlad
yeah I am open to suggestions. not sure the best way to check injectors
I just replaced the crank sensor , that did not fix it . I also checked the impedance , the old one is the same as the new one
paul
pull the injectors with rails and all, and all lines and wiring still connected. prime the pump to build pressure or if you can run the pump continuously. see if they are weeping or leaking fuel from the pintels (ends of the injectors).
what happens is when the car is left warm they leak fuel into the ports, which vaporizes and floods the engine and manifold with rich fuel vapor. when left long enough to cool, like few hours or overnight the fuel vapor condenses back to liquid and settles which in turn the engine starts easy or relatively easy.
had this experience few times before so i know it when I see it first hand. Sounds like what you are getting and its a good possibility with today's fuel.
Sunnyjim ·
Thanks Joel and Vlad for your help.
Sunnyjim ·
flywheel, clutch pressure plate all bolted down to the right torque
i picked up a liberty crossmemeber which will help as the engine mount
Engine now connected via adaptor plate to the gearbox.
Hanging on the ground as I am yet to organise an engine mount. I also snapped the engine lift. It is not rated to lift a kombi!
Sunnyjim ·
I have just got the engine mount made.I did a trial fit in the engine bay and realised I can gain another 2 to 3 inches in ground clearance by raising the engine mount. As expected this puts the engine on a slant.
Do my question is - is this an absolute no no, engine must be 100% horizontal? Our can I have it on an angle?
Sunnyjim ·
Engine mounts now done and engine in nicely
got the original liberty exhaust front half on
Sunnyjim ·
I am this far , cansoeme one help me?
1. I can gain 2 or so more inches in clearance if i push the engine mount up higher, however ths puts the engine on a slant forward. Is this an absolute NO NO? i have it currently mounted flat.
2. I have to get my head aroud the fuel system. How do I provide a fuel return to the petrol tank?
where exactly? can some one provide a piccy?
thanks
paul
nils ·
many of the off road boys run there scooby motors at an angle without and problems
you can also shorten the sump 2'' pretty easily aswell as the headers, I think it was custom offroad that did like a 90mm shorter sump?
easiest way to do the tank would be to get a later injected model tank or use a fuel tank bulkhead fitting into the top.
here are a few photos of my sump and headers
good luck with it 👍
Sunnyjim ·
Nils thanks for posting the pics. I like that shortened sump, but as I have used the original liberty crossmember I wonder if it would fit?
Also I heard it common enough for kombi ej22 conversions to still use the original fuel tank, so I am looking find how they did it.
I assume I need a separate return back to the petrol tank not just connect back to thetank outlet..
What I like about this self imposed project I have had many questions and it has forced me to learn
Subarugears ·
Sunnyjim, I have a couple of suggestions for you to make your engine mount setup much stronger and engineer-worthy.
Firstly, you need to weld a couple of crush tubes into your Kombi chassis rails so that when you tighten up those four bolts you don't simply crush your chassis rails together.
Secondly, it would be a great improvement to have a plate/L bracket hanging down on both the inside and outside of the chassis rails instead of just the inside - then weld those two brackets together so they form a channel.
At the moment you're putting a lot of upwards & downwards stress onto those bolts from just one side and are likely to snap them.
Sunnyjim ·
todd
thx for the advice, much appreciated
i had wondered about that,
i wil certainly look at it
john1960 ·
Sunnyjim I have a 74 kombi with a ej22 you could have a look at.I am on the gold coast are you close by.
Sunnyjim ·
John
Am in carindale, i go to goldie abit. Lets tee it up
Paul
nils ·
Oh yeah, that's why I decided against the OG cross member, Don't mind me 😂
Sunnyjim wrote:Nils thanks for posting the pics. I like that shortened sump, but as I have used the original liberty crossmember I wonder if it would fit?
Also I heard it common enough for kombi ej22 conversions to still use the original fuel tank, so I am looking find how they did it.
I assume I need a separate return back to the petrol tank not just connect back to thetank outlet..
What I like about this self imposed project I have had many questions and it has forced me to learn
Sunnyjim ·
Nils yes I can see that!
Sunnyjim ·
Here is a picture of the radiator and fan. I bought 2 of each they look good
however an issue I need to work through, I just assumed if they work in a late Bay then Ok in an early.But seems too high.
If i turn them on their side it will fit however then radiator cap will be on its side and prone to leaking. I would have to seal it off. This sounds Ok to me as i still have to install a separate overflowtank
advice welcome
Sunnyjim ·
hi all
got the ej22 in wired and running nicely. Not done the radiators yet.
meantime the issue is the vdo tacho won't work on the ej22 but does work on my ej25.
I was told I need a signal booster.
Anyone experienced this.?
Sunnyjim ·
ok so no replies on the tacho- i know we are all busy
I think I need some sime amplifier circuit ,I will go see the nerds at Jaycar, the upside is they may be filming beauty and the geeks
Sunnyjim ·
Hi all
This has been epic project but I am seeing the finish line. The ej22 starts nicely all the time now that I sorted all the breather hoses and the cranky kit turns it nicely.
When I bought the reverse manifold kit I got a bracket, seems it can be mounted in 4 positions. Front above, front below , behind above and behind below.
From the pic it is front below, but the cable is at the wrong angle.
Seems best spot is behind top. But it needs some guide to make the cable come in at the right angle
I have seen a pic somewhere where someone used some copper pipe that made a nice curve for the sheath to sit in.
Can someone tell me it goes? A pic would be great.
Also I bought an accelerator cable with sheath. So as the cable is on 1.5m long I assume I join it? Not sure where exactly is the best place. if I join it , It could snag inside the sheath.
The other idea I had was just to extend my existing kombi cable by a couple of inches up at the pedal end. Then I would have no join to get snagged inside the sheath.
Can someone offer some advice , thanks
Joel ·
Hi Paul, is your tach totally dead or being jumpy?
If its not working at all have you definetly got the right signal wire to it?
If its jumpy a rectifier diode usually cleans up signal up but it should be good and stable coming out of the ECU.
With your accel cable bracket it looks like they have bent it the wrong way?
Sunnyjim ·
joel really appreciate your help
the tacho doesn't move at all. I got the loom from AM Auto noosa, but i will do as you say and call them and check that I have the right the wire . they did already mention i might need a signal booster. Nothing wrong with trying a signal booster as u just mentioned . what comes out of the ECU ? Is it 5 or 12V? Because i used to use this same tacho on the 12v negative side of my old aircooled 1600cc vw donk and it worked well. I coudl try a diode first, I will see if i can loan a CRO from work and see the real shape of the signal.
funny thing , i took the tacho and connected it to my ej25 in my 76 bus and it works, so I am wondering is the tacho signal out from an ej22 different to an ej25?
sheath bracket- yes i know i don't have in the right position , but i was wondering if it should go up top but at the back? I currently have it front down below.
do you think i need some curved copper pipe to act as a guide for the sheath? or is the sheath ok on its own just as long as is anchored to the bracket?
Joel ·
The Tach signal would be the same between the EJ22 and EJ25 so it shouldn't need a boosted if it works on the other one.
If its one of Als looms does it still have all the Letter lables on each wire?
I'll see if I can find my original sheet as he usually does them out all the same as it could just be the wrong wire, there are a lot of ununsed wires that it could be mistaken for like the A/C control wires etc
I would have thought that was the correct position for the cable bracket, just looks like the twist faces the wrong way.
I'll have to dig out my Subi conversion folder and see if there are any customveedub throttle body inverter pics in that.
It shouldn't need a curve as long as its fitted to the bracket to stop it moving.
BlueV2 ·
I just used the original Subaru flexible throttle cable outer sheath which will bolt up to your throttle cable bracket (that is currently twisted the wrong way) and then you can feed that to wherever it needs to go.
Sunnyjim ·
joel
i will check the wires this weekend, i think on the ej25 it was a blue black one , but i am pretty sure it is a different colour on the ej22. always a chance i mixed it up
bluev2 - i dont have a subie sheath but have a generic, i can try that this weekend
regards to the twisted bracket- does it look twisted because i have it in the wrong position? it is currently front below but i think i need to move it to top and behind the throttle body. then the angle will be different.
Sunnyjim ·
Some good progress. I borrowed an oscilloscope and put it on the tacho signal wire.
Progress, I could see a 12 volt square wave coming out of the ecu. Then i followed it up to the tacho itself. The signal is still there.
So I switched with a vdo tacho and it worked. At least I now know the wiring is good.
I still want to use my old school tacho, so I will look into some booster options.
Joel ·
You could try running the tach signal through a rectifyer diode.
IN4004 were only a few cents each from Dick Smith last time I bought some
I still have some pics of Brads bug which uses the same throttle body and linakge setup you have.
His was mounted from the top side facing up so must be a whole new throttle cable run instead of the stock VW one.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
Thanks for the pic it helps. I will give it a go this weekend
I also need to get a vss, I heard vdo is common but I cant see anything on ebay.
Do u know where I can get one from?
webwalker ·
Sunnyjim wrote:Hi all
This has been epic project but I am seeing the finish line. The ej22 starts nicely all the time now that I sorted all the breather hoses and the cranky kit turns it nicely.
When I bought the reverse manifold kit I got a bracket, seems it can be mounted in 4 positions. Front above, front below , behind above and behind below.
I like the throttle valve reverser; looks like it is meant to be there. Who fabbed it for you?
For the DIY fan, does anyone know the correct dimensions for the fab if one were to crack out their own plasma cutter and welder?
Marshall
The VolksarU Project
helbus ·
I bought my VDO brand VSS from a Vehicle Instument repairer. I cant remember the price, but it was definitley more than $150. I unscrewed the speedo cable from the speedo at the back. Screwed the VSS inbetween the two. Then wired the signal back to the ECU and it worked fine. I know someone who ran their EJ20 without a VSS and it stalled when stopping at traffic lights until the VSS was fitted.
Joel ·
Sunnyjim wrote:Joel
Thanks for the pic it helps. I will give it a go this weekend
I also need to get a vss, I heard vdo is common but I cant see anything on ebay.
Do u know where I can get one from?
I looked into those but decided against them as they only work as well as the VW speedo cable allows which we all know isnt brilliant.
I ended up just mounting a proximity sensor on the back axle which reads the CV joint spinning.
The sensor was only $25 off ebay and 4 years and 75,000kms later still working a treat.
It also operates my digital head up display speedo and has read accurately upto 180km/h so far.
Sunnyjim ·
hi Joel
what is a proximity Sensor and where do I get one?
Joel ·
They are just metal detectors and can be picked up on ebay.
If you are not too worried about accuracy you just set it up to sense the CV joint bolts as they spin passed it.
CV joints have 6 bolts where as Subaru VSS typical are 5 pulses per wheel revolution.
Do you know what year EJ22 it is?
THe OBD1 like mine just have a square wave ground signal and the ECU only needs to know if the car is moving or stopped so accuracy doesnt matter too much, a wrong pulse count is only an issue if you using it for a speedo as well like I am.
where as the later stuff has a 5volt square wave pattern and they also use vehicle speed to dictate radiator fan speed so if it not accurate your fans may come on too late/early.
Heres one a mate copied from mine in his bus on the inner CV joint
Gday Brent that vss looks the goods. I went to the small car website and it is all about vanagons not early bays.
Will it work on my 71 bus?
mackaymanx ·
The wheel will bolt to the CV fine as it's the same CV. The arm with the sensor bolts to a boss on the gearbox which I don't think the earlier boxes have but you should be able to find somewhere.
vlad01 ·
Joel wrote:They are just metal detectors and can be picked up on ebay.
If you are not too worried about accuracy you just set it up to sense the CV joint bolts as they spin passed it.
CV joints have 6 bolts where as Subaru VSS typical are 5 pulses per wheel revolution.
Do you know what year EJ22 it is?
THe OBD1 like mine just have a square wave ground signal and the ECU only needs to know if the car is moving or stopped so accuracy doesnt matter too much, a wrong pulse count is only an issue if you using it for a speedo as well like I am.
where as the later stuff has a 5volt square wave pattern and they also use vehicle speed to dictate radiator fan speed so if it not accurate your fans may come on too late/early.
Heres one a mate copied from mine in his bus on the inner CV joint
does the suby ECU use spark control for gear change, low speed cruise and oscillation smoothing? dead accurate VSS is needed if thats the case so the ECU can calculate instantaneous gear position.
Hi all
I ordered a vss hall sensor kit from smallcar.com
Will update when I have a go at the the install
Sunnyjim ·
Sunnyjim ·
Started getting serious on the weekend about fitting the twin radiators into the engine bay
here they are with fans assembled onto them, I wont be usung shrouds
I am not sure if i have installed the fans right. no instructions
but the fans have a small gap with the radiator , which I think is right . But I was not happy that I think I push the black cord through the radiator fins (seems I could damage and spring a leak) and secure on the other side , spring keep tension on it
Anyone let me know if u see a mistake
nils ·
Hi sunnyjim. The mounting of those fans sure looks a little haphazard, The little metal springs on the rearside look like they sure could do some damage. I would be taking those off and having the plastic washer against the fins, or better yet make some bigger rubber washers to fit under those again.
I hope not to offend, but those radiators don't fit for S#*^! you have a lot of shrouding to do in your future. Also it looks that your lower coolant hose will interfere with engine lid spring. There was a fellow discussing radiators for busses a few weeks ago, mentioned he has 2 911 radiators in his. I looked up these and did some measurements, by all accounts they should slip in like butter. plus they are designed to run side flow.
As far as the radiator caps go, I would think that they should be fine lying down although idealy you should cut them off and have them welded shut. two less things that can leak.
Your cooling system should have an expansion tank and an over flow bottle, you can get away with out the overflow just means you are dumping on the ground. Depending on the size of the hoses on you expansion, you may concider a remote fill point cut into one of your hoses. ( aeroflow make these, about $50) at this point your set up would have 4 radiator caps. Have a look on some of the 4WD forums and read up on cooling system design, these boys take there cooling very seriously.
Lastly here is a useful diagram I saved, based on a subi into a T3 bus.
Sunnyjim ·
Nils
No offence taken at all mate, I was hoping for this type of advice. I will read through all this and most likely come back and ask questions
Sunnyjim ·
Question?
I need to buy a radiator overflow tank. I have seen from 500ml up b to 2.5 litres.
is a 500ml one enough volume?
nils ·
I have a alloy 500ml expansion that i decided not to use, if you decide to go that way.
I decided not to use it because I wanted to see how much was in it
Sunnyjim ·
Thanks nils, i just bought a 750ml one. I hope that will be enough, as I have no idea how much fluid is lost and recovered due to normal expansion
Sunnyjim ·
This weekend could be momentus , as well as the aussies winning the RLWC I hope to get to the stage and pour green coolant thru the ej22.
I have bought a bunch of hoses and connectors , some 38mm aluminium pipe and will start on the cooling system. I also bit the bullet and took the 2 radiators to a welding shop to get them to cut toff the rad caps , as they wont be needed and they would not fit in either. I will use a combination and an expansion tank and a overflow bottle .
can you guess which one is the overflow bottle ?
I also have never really been satisfied with the accelerator linkages, I did put a Just kampers kit thru it, that did improve it
SO I found this great looking bit of gear call the " Buttybit" from Simon in the UK, looks and feels real solid. will install this weekend and update.
Sunnyjim ·
I am nearly there!
Just mounted twin rads and fans.
Install the expansion tank this weekend.
I have tapped into the lower main radiator hose (right side of engine bay )
However just thinking is that the best place? If the engine is cold and thermostat closed does the coolant full the radiators.
Any ideas?
Joel?
Joel ·
Ideally you would want a feed into the header tank from both cold and hot sides.
It has 2 ports on it, but just the cold side like you have done will work as long as you have a genuine thermostat with the bleed hole in it.
Most aftermarket ones dont have that which would make it a PITA to get the air out of.
Sunnyjim ·
Hi joel
Thanks for the quick reply as I wanted to try to have a go this weekend.it helps.
My plastic expansion tank has one large Outlet at the bottom and 2 very small ones at the top and I assume these are 2 overflows?does that sound right.
I could drill tap another outlet in the expansion tank and tap into hot radiator hose.
what is better to help bleed air if I connect into the top or bottom of the expansion tank? Does it matter?
Joel ·
Doesnt really matter, as long as you letting air trapped at the hieghest point find its way to the header tank.
I would just try running a hose down to the hot side first and see how it goes.
It will probably be slow filling though as it has to feed through that small bleed hole in the thermstat.
you only need one radiator cap to vent to over flow , you can buy caps that don't have spring or valves in them , Toyota have them .just drill and tap a small pipe fitting into the top water out let on motor and connect to header tank.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel and Ian thanks for the suggestions. I was successful yesterday made a filler into the hot side.. I was getting excited as Iran the green coolant through it.. Bugger- small drip looks to be coming from the water pump weep hole. According to Haynes I replace the water pump. It says I take off drive belt, plastic covers and timing belt + tensinoner to get to the water pump,(not looking fwd to that
If I buy a water pump are they all the same ? Or any high flow?
Joel ·
I've got a brand new genuine one here that was bought for my first engine I'll never need if you're interested
Sunnyjim ·
hi Joel
Yes I am interested the water pump Let me know what you want for it.
Can you confirm there is no easy way? I have to take the timing belt to replace the get to the water pump ?
Do I also need take off the main pulley or just loosen one of the rollers ?
I guess I will search you tube
thanks Paul
ian.mezz ·
Sunnyjim wrote:hi Joel
Yes I am interested the water pump Let me know what you want for it.
Can you confirm there is no easy way? I have to take the timing belt to replace the get to the water pump ?
Do I also need take off the main pulley or just loosen one of the rollers ?
I guess I will search you tube
thanks Paul
joel likes working on his VW , I like to drive mine .
thank Joel .😊
Joel ·
Driving is only half the fun...
Paul you have PM.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
thanks for your help much appreciated
Sunnyjim ·
Joel or anyone else
How do I just replace the water pump?
Most things I have read talk also of replacing the belt and rollers. I only need to change the waterpump.
Joel ·
Hi Paul
Ordinarily they are all replaced at once when doing a timing belt change so most will say do the lot.
As you are only doing the water pump you won't need to worry about that but you will need to remove one of the rollers to get the timing belt off.
Once the belt is off its just a matter of unbolt the old water pump, get the gasket surfaces spotless and bolt back together and refit the timing belt.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
thx for the quick reply, it helps as I want to have a go this weekend
I assume I first remove the 2 bolts on the tensioner adjuster ? then one of the rollers?( if so which one?)
or Can i get the belt off just by removing one of the rollers? and not even touch that tensioner?
A bit confusing because everything I have read implies I want to change the belt and remove the rollers but I only want to do the water pump
Joel ·
The tensioner has to come off anyway as it needs to be compressed in a bench vice.
I just remove it first and the belt comes off easy enough.
Here's my post from when I did mine,
I didn't do the water pump as you know but its very straight forward.
Do I first need to line up all the belt timing marks? Or it doesn't matter as long as i don't move anything in between?
Remove tensioner
Remove timing belt
Replace water pump
Reinstall timing belt
ian.mezz ·
Sunnyjim wrote:Joel
Ok this is starting to make sense.
Do I first need to line up all the belt timing marks? Or it doesn't matter as long as i don't move anything in between?
Remove tensioner
Remove timing belt
Replace water pump
Reinstall timing belt
line all marks up to be safe
Sunnyjim ·
Ian
Thanks good advice
Joel ·
It's a lot easier to spin the crank over with a socket and line them up while the belts still on but its not critical.
As long as they all line up properly.
Sunnyjim ·
Ok Got the new water pump in , poured some green coolant in and hey presto no leaks
Incremental progress......
coolant in no leaks, EJ 22 runs up to temp nicely. I dont leave it run for over 10 mins yet but the temp gauge warms up nicely . I will Wire in the twin fans this weekend.
Sunnyjim ·
I have put the k&N pod filter just straight on the end of the throttle body. Do I need to try to get it to suck fresh cooler air? Does it make a difference?
Joel ·
Is yours one of the really late ones with a map sensor instead of an air flow meter?
ian.mezz ·
if its one of these you mount hose so it sucks in cool air from out side the engine bay.
Sunnyjim wrote:I have put the k&N pod filter just straight on the end of the throttle body. Do I need to try to get it to suck fresh cooler air? Does it make a difference?
Hey SunnyJim-
I've been lurking on your thread for quite some time. This build and some of the contributions of other posters on this forum like karmann141 helped inspire me to pursue an EJ22 swap in my '71 bus with engine bay mounted radiators. I had a friend with a shop do the install with aftermarket MicroSquirt engine management and my bus has been back on the road since late summer. I have put 1500 miles or so on the setup with no overheating issues, but the true test will be driving to VW shows next summer in the 100+ deg. F heat here in Northern California.
To answer your question about the intake, I do think that it is ideal to route it outside the engine bay for cooler intake temps. Here is the setup on my bus:
The black piece is tig welded tubing that was powdercoated black. You could probably piece something similar together out of elbow tubing and couplers which would not require the welding skills.
I'm really stoked on your build, can't wait to see it on the road. Keep up the good work!
karmann141 ·
Nice neat looking installation Bucknasty - glad its working for you, I really think its the way to go.
We have similar high temps here in summer - went camping last summer with 4 people, full load of camping gear and trailer. No engine over heating problems over the 1200km trip, only people - looking at fitting a/c but will have to reverse manifold back to original to fit compressor.
Well done.
Sunnyjim ·
Bucknasty
Thanks for the comments
I still don't have mine on the road yet. It might be the slowest conversion ever!
Nolan karmann 141 had been helping me a lot. Joel and Ian also.
Just ironing out a wiring bug. For some reason i can't see a signal at the ecu fan signal . I think the ecu should earth a relay and turning the fans on.
I see you have the valance tinware still in. That is important for air cooled but I was wondering does it trap heat inside the engine bay?
Bucknasty ·
Thanks for the nice comments gents, I'm really happy with the setup. I did add the JK Earz to my intake vents to add more air pressure to the radiators per the recommendation of Karmann141. My radiators/shrouds/fans are OEM scirrocco. Only the left side ever runs the fan, so there is some redundancy if it fails. Fans are hooked to the thermostats in the radiators rather than the ECU. I'm running a very basic aftermarket EFI that has limited inputs and outputs so this was easier.
The rear apron has been trimmed to allow the hot air to escape. There is plenty more metal to cut if I end up needing to, but so far, so good.
The builder did a thread on shoptalkforums.com for my bus and I have my own on earlybay.com. The Subaru swap starts at the bottom of page 10 if you want to skip all the show pictures and other shenanigans in the thread:
Hey buck
Where are you? UK or usa?
I see you got the compressor. What are your plans for aircon?
Bucknasty ·
Sunnyjim wrote:Hey buck
Where are you? UK or usa?
I see you got the compressor. What are your plans for aircon?
I have a nice VWOA under dash A/C unit that I plan on plumbing to the Subaru compressor. I also plan on running a vanagon style heater under the back seat, possibly plumbed to the factory heater ducts.
I'm located in Northern California, about 90 miles east of San Francisco.
1303Steve ·
Hi Bucknasty
I had my fans on a WBX conversion I did to a Beetle years ago triggered by by a sensor in the radiator, the problem I had was that there was delay with the fans coming on.
If you could fit the fan switch to the motor you would avoid this issues.
Steve
Bucknasty ·
1303Steve wrote:Hi Bucknasty
I had my fans on a WBX conversion I did to a Beetle years ago triggered by by a sensor in the radiator, the problem I had was that there was delay with the fans coming on.
If you could fit the fan switch to the motor you would avoid this issues.
Steve
Thanks for the suggestion Steve. If I remember correctly, the builder who did my swap selected radiator thermostats that were set a bit lower than the stock Subaru set point to compensate for this problem. Additionally I have a big red warning light next to my water temp gauge that is hooked up to my ECU to turn on when the temps reach 225F before it overheats. My water temp gauge is pretty cheap and reads higher by about 10-15 degrees, so it's really just for reference. The red light has never come on so far, and I have driven it in 100 degree F weather around town. I have not driven any long distances with it yet.
Please excuse the dirt and rust- I pulled this bus out of a field where it sat for over ten years. I have a lot of work to do making it look as good as it runs now with the ej22.
Sorry SunnyJim I feel like I am crashing your thread. Hopefully my posts are helpful to you or anyone considering a swap like this...
Sunnyjim ·
Bucknasty
Dont worry about crashing Your comments are all valuable and helps us all learn.
It is good I can ask lots of questions.
what are you doing about a heater ?
I plan to run twin heater hOses up Into the cabin and install something like this unit
What you linked is pretty much what I had in mind for heat. Except that unit has both AC and a Heater core. Since I was planning on running the VWOA underdash AC unit, I think I'll only need the heater core function. This picture shows what the unit looks like but it's not my bus:
The heater setup I was looking at pretty much appears the same as what you posted, but with no evaporator for the AC. It's just a black box with fittings for the coolant and outlets for the heat. Also I heard a vanagon heater core is similar, but I honestly have not put much time into this part of the swap yet, just a little preliminary research.
I saw this website has heater valves that can be cable controlled so I was hoping to hook it up to the stock control levers and plumb the heater core outlets to the stock heater tubes. I plan on mounting it below the back seat. There will be a switch for the blower to control the output. See link below:
I probably won't get to this aspect of the bus until I do some work on my interior and exterior. I need to make the bus look a little nicer and more comfortable now that the running gear is updated. I also bought a 091 transmission to rebuild later with taller gears to match the powerband of the EJ22. Right now I don't use 1st gear at all with the stock 002 transmission.
Have you seen this video of my bus? This is what you can look forward to when your swap is done...
Sunnyjim ·
Bucknasty
Yes mine has the healer core but also the evaporator for future aircon I will just connect the heater but do cold air at some stage in the future
Sunnyjim ·
Buck nasty
I just saw the video holy crap that speedo moves
Is that through the stock 3 rib gearbox ?
what RPMS you got at 60MPH?
Bucknasty ·
Yes that is a stock 3 rib trans. I feel like it's going to break if I drive it like that so I have chilled out quite a bit once I got used to the ej22 power. I don't have a tach installed so I'm not sure of the RPMs, but if I hook up a laptop to the Microsquirt module I would be able to see all the engine details. I don't have one now but I plan to get one so I can continue optimizing the efi fuel map using the "auto-tune" function on the tuner studio software, which is free. I also plan on getting a tach that looks just like the deluxe clock someone is selling on earlybay. My bus runs smaller tires all around because my it's lowered so the speedo is off by about 9mph. The video is a little misleading in that respect though the acceleration is real.
I used a calculator to try to figure out my engine speed at 55 and 65 mph given the stock 002 gearing and the 175/70r14 tires I'm running, and it came out to 3500 rpm and 4100 rpm, respectively. I think that is for actual MPH, not what my speedo is reading. Not exactly optimized but I plan on improving it with the built up 091 six rib later on.
Here's a video of the acceleration just in 4th gear from a cruising speed:
Sunnyjim ·
Bucknasty
Before I started my conversion I was made aware that I might end up with the rpms being too high . Everything suggests eventually getting the matching subie 5 speed box is the way to go.
However being in the USA I think you have the option of getting a new box with taller 3rd and 4th cogs at a reasonable cost.
Sunnyjim ·
it is slow progress but I am moving forward.
I have got sunnyjim 71 kombi ej22 to the stage I can drive around the block
however I hear a fuel pump strain noise driving slowly 1st to 2nd 3rd when under slight load up a small hill at 20-30kmh. the engine jerks a bit like running on 2 or 3 cyllinders . being in the car at the the time feels like it could be spark or fuel. Checked spark leads. However the fuel pump sounds suggests to me i might have a blockage or dud fuel pump.
It is a new Bosch OEm VL commodore only $60 so it is possible I might have ebay tash?
I checked fuel lines to make sure no kinks- all ok , 2 new fuel filters. I also made sure the inlet was a bigger size than original. (I now use the original inlet for the fuel return)
No such sound at idle, only when I put some load on it, and not all the time
Any suggestions?
Sunnyjim ·
Correction .. I meant to say I have made a new fuel tank outlet .It feeds the fuel pump via a filter. This outlet is bigger than the original. I now use the original outlet as the fuel return.
So I think this rules out the pump starving.
Once again suggestions welcome.
Sunnyjim ·
Correction .. I meant to say I have made a new fuel tank outlet .It feeds the fuel pump via a filter. This outlet is bigger than the original. I now use the original outlet as the fuel return.
So I think this rules out the pump starving.
Once again suggestions welcome.
Sunnyjim ·
Correction .. I meant to say I have made a new fuel tank outlet .It feeds the fuel pump via a filter. This outlet is bigger than the original. I now use the original outlet as the fuel return.
So I think this rules out the pump starving.
Once again suggestions welcome.
Joel ·
Any pics of your pump setup?
Is it well below the tank with a good gravity feed?
How big is your outlet from the tank feeding the pump?
For a gravity feed you would want atleast 12mm.
A cheap Chinese pump probably isnt helping but ideally with any external pump setup they work much better with a surge tank and lift pump to keep the pressure to it.
Sunnyjim ·
hi Joel
The pump is mounted low against the chasis rail
I am away his week and will post some pics later .
I don't have a 2nd pump or a surge tank . I thought that set up was for hi performance or racers which mine is not
I can't remember the size of the new outlet , I guess I can measure it.
can I assume that straining noise is the pump or fuel pump feed ? It can't be caused by the fuel return ?
If I was to replace with a better pump what do you suggest ? Would I go a higher pressure or higher flow type ?
As it never happens at idle can I assume it is fuel and not electrical?
Just after the tank I have the clear plastic fuel filter it then goes to the pump then it goes to a EFI filter (rated for EJ 22) then to the motor
Joel ·
Just a genuine 044 Bosch pump, they are a bit more $$ but as they say buy once, cry once.
Some people like the Walbro ones, I've fitted a couple of intank ones to mainstream cars and had no complaints but no experience with external ones.
Pumps usually get noisy for a couple of reasons in my experience.
Low voltage, hot fuel, and cavitation.
I suspect with yours it is caviation as underload it just cant draw in enough fuel.
I doubt it would be hot fuel as you are not running off a surge tank,
I had that problem early on as the pump was recirculating the hot fuel returning from the regulator so it wasnt getting a chance to cool off back in the tank.
Sunnyjim ·
hi Joel
thanks for the reply. I like to Check and rule out the easy things first before I buy another fuel pump
What about the clear plastic and paper filter just after the fuel tank ? Can that be a restriction at all ? Are there such a thing as a high flow pre filter?
Another simple thing I could do is to put a second pre filter in parallel to double the flow in theory .
The wiring is new and next to the battery so should not suffer from low Voltage
Replacing the pump will be easier than pulling the gas tank out and re welding inlets and outlets .
I guess I made the mistake before not paying attention on EBay . I thought it was Bosch but it is Bosch spec!
Can you recommend where to buy an original Bosch pump?
Joel ·
Those clear filters are only rock catchers, they are not a restriction to the flow.
You have to be so careful when buying Bosch pumps especiallly off ebay as so many places sell counterfiet ones.
I got mine through an online motorsport website but unfortunately seems to be dead link now.
Expect to pay around $250 for a genuine one but weeding out all the fakes is hard on ebay, one guy even states that even though the boxes are genuine Bosch the pumps arent 🙄
Hopefully someone on here might know a good source for genuine ones but this guy seems to get a good wrap
its very hard to find a genuine one. I would say 95% are fake. The fake are getting to the point its impossible to tell unless you cut them open. Same with walbro ones.
I personally pull 2nd hand ones from cars where I know they are genuine, test them all, pick the best ones. Have not had a 2nd hand one fail yet.
Sunnyjim ·
Guys good advice thanks
I will hunt down an original 044 Bosch pump
StephenM ·
Is bolting to the chassis with anti crush tubes preferable to welding? Engineering wise I mean.
Sunnyjim ·
stephen
I am not an expert in that so will let someone else comment.
But they way I have done mine with 8 huge nuts and bolts has come in real handy.
I have needed to lower/raise the engine many times working on other things and I could not have done it if it was all welded in.
it took many times to get the engine at the right height, the ej22 has a low sump , so i pushed the engine up as high as possible and gaining some ground clearance
now after all this i think the brackets to the chassis rails could be welded but it took me a long time to get the final position right.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel you asked about my fuel pump set up, so I will post a few pics
You can see here i have the fuel pump mounted hard against the chassis rail, it gets good gravity feed, wrapped in black rubber so as not to amplify any noise
you can see below the new tank outlet, it is the one towards the edge. I got Pete at CVD to weld in a new bigger tank outlet , we used this one to feed the clear plastic paper fuel filter. we now use the original outlet as the fuel return.
once under the bus I can see that plastic filter is full of crud, a little surprising as I have had the tank out 2 years ago , cleaned it and it looked good inside.
So what is more likely? is that paper filter just doing its job? or is it likely with that amount of crud some of it has made its way into the fuel pump and is what is causing the issue?
I have a new original Bosch 044 on its way to me , so I dont want to repeat the problem
Joel ·
Wondering if that 8mm inlet hose is just a bit too small to keep it fed under load?
my Bosch 984 pump which is the next size down from the 044 has a 12mm inlet hose.
trouble with that is getting a filter that would fit in 12mm hose and the barb on the tank is 8mm too.
I would see how you go with the new pump.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel, Pete at CVD said that outlet should be ok, he thought it was bigger or same size as in a kombi with EFI.
One idea before I wreck another pump , do you see anything wrong with putting 2 clear plastic fillers series? I don't think they restrict flow and this would be a good way for me to see if crud is making it through the first plastic filter. I could do this for a while, few weeks and then pull the 2nd filter out to see if crud is making its way through
Before I install the new 044 is it possible lo clean the existing pump out? Would compressed air help?
the EFI filter Is also new is it possible to inspect? Do I replace or leave it as is. ?
Joel ·
The Subaru fuel injection has a bit higher demands than the original Kombi system but the outlet should still be adequate.
No harm in running 2 filters, they will not obstruct the flow, they are only rock catchers.
Sadly the pumps are sealed items to force you to buy new ones instead of servicing, same with the filters but if the EFI filter is only new I;d leave it (assume its a stock subi one?)
the replacement interval for them is 50,000kms.
Sunnyjim ·
joel
thanks for the reply
if those clear plastic filters are rock catchers then i assume stuff might be clogging the fuel pump right now?
Is there a better type/brand of this clear plastic/paper filter to protect the fuel pump?
Joel ·
Hi Paul,
Its only real fine sediment that gets through them and that shouldn't worry the pump too much, the EFI filter would catch it.
I haven't actually replaced my EFI filter yet but have a new one to go it it, I'm going to cut it open just for interests sake to see how much crap is in it after 5 years.
Sunnyjim ·
New. Bosch 044 pump arrived
it goes in this weekend I hope it fixes the issue.
slight Setback the new one has a screw in inlet but old one has a push on connector
need to hunt down an adaptor
Google says it might be a M 18 and 1.5 thread . Does anyone know?
Ampdub ·
Just take it into somewhere that stocks speedpro fuel fittings and check
Sunnyjim ·
bits and pieces arrived in the mail , so my plan was to install the new bosch original 044 pump, install a fuel valve to making handling petrol easier in the future and upgrade the fuel pump hose from 5/16 to 3/8.
here i compare the original bosch to the e-bay bosch spec pump. you can see the original looks bigger and it is heavier too. I hope it does a better job
just need to test drive to prove no more fuel problems then i can get back to finalsiing the cooling.
Sunnyjim ·
bits and pieces arrived in the mail , so my plan was to install the new bosch original 044 pump, install a fuel valve to making handling petrol easier in the future and upgrade the fuel pump hose from 5/16 to 3/8.
here i compare the original bosch to the e-bay bosch spec pump. you can see the original looks bigger and it is heavier too. I hope it does a better job
just need to test drive to prove no more fuel problems then i can get back to finalsiing the cooling.
Sunnyjim ·
this weekend I run 2 long heater hoses up to the cabin .
Cant see it in Haynes
Can someone tell me the Correct Size heater hose to use?
thanks Paul
Sunnyjim ·
Sunnyjim reporting for duty....
Weekend of progress. New original fuel pump in with upgraded 3/8 inch fuel hose in. No fuel starvation issues.
I have proven original expensive bosch Pumps are better than cheap Chinese ebay copies. .... Der...
I also ran $80 of 16mm heater hose up into the cabin ready for a heater/ac core.
nils ·
Mmm.......... Heater and a/c 👍
Sunnyjim ·
Nils I will soon post a few pics of heater core.
Even though seems I have fixed the fuel starvation issues the pump seems noisy.
How did people handle this?
Anyone had the same issue?
vlad01 ·
is it a genuine Bosch?
Sunnyjim ·
Gday Vlad
yes I think original
after getting caught the first time will a $60 eBay copy I was told that all original Bosch pumps are now made in the CZheck republic . I also googled and bought from a USA site that "guaranteed "originals
this one came in what looks like an Original box and had Czech stamped /engraved on the pump. from the photos you can see it Is more substantial
I am also not sure yet is it the pump noisy or the noise is the flow through the lines and back through an empty tank ? I also have cut a hole for the hatch amplifylng noise
having said all this the copy pump was quieter but could not keep up
I lhink I need someone to listen, perhaps it is normal
Joel ·
External fuel pumps are typically pretty noisy, one of the reasons the manufactures went to intank pumps to help drown the noise so to speak.
Mine is a genuine Czheck made one and has been in since day one now and has over 75,000kms on it now.
Its got a little bit quiter over the years.
If you skip to the 2 min mark you can hear it
That was when I first got the conversion up and running in mid 2009, its quietened down a bit since then.
Sunnyjim ·
joel
thx fr posting that, must say that is one great looking beetle
i am not going to worry too much now about the nosiy fuel pump because i haven't sealed anything yet. i should judge the noise at the end of the conversion. at least it moves sunnyjim smoothly now.
still got a couple of things to work through. i cant get the wiring loom temp wire to turn on the fans. relay is good but i can't see the signal changing voltage. i will keep looking at it . i rather get the engine ecu to do this. but is there some oem in line sensor i can buy? turn on at 98 degrees c and off at 90 etc?
( i am not sure of exact temps )
Joel ·
No worries Paul.
Just make sure your fan relay is wired up correctly too, the ECU sends a ground to the relay not a positive.
It should be triggering the relay on at 95c and off at 90c.
You can get inline senders if you need or some radiators have a port for a switch.
I;m sure you have probably mentioned it but what radiator are you using again?
Sunnyjim ·
joel
i am using 2 new small austin mini cooper rads with 10 inch fans on each , installed into the engine bay.
i need to just shroud them so all the air has to go through them, that seems to be the secret for engine bay installs (i am told)
Sunnyjim ·
here are the rads and fans - this is before I got the rad caps cut off and welded close
Sunnyjim ·
this project has been great for me , realling learning by trial and error , unfortuneate it costs money! However I haven't made too many stuff ups
In hindsight I should have found small rads with 38mm outlets. I reckon i spend over 200$ just on silicon adaptors going from 25 mm p to 38mm
Sunnyjim ·
i took some time off today to get under the bus .
the fuel pump is still very noisy. I cant quiet understand yet. the cheap ebay copy was very nice and quiet but it could not keep up with the demand.
I changed the return hose for a larger size to see if that made a difference . No it didn't , anyway that is a problem way down on the priorty list
I got the twin fans wired in but my concern is they kick in at 110 degrees. Ok so maybe my old kombi aircooled VDO temp gauge is wrong? I thought the kick in temp is pretty well fixed by the ecu. Perhaps this gauge is wrong?
So this is what I am going to do.
I bought this adapator ,I will insert in the radiator hose . It has a 1/8 inch temp sensor in it . I driilled and tapped it , put a brass piece in it so I can also use it to fill the coolant. I will run a second temp gauge just to see if it is different
bad62bug ·
Don't forget to ground the temp sender body
Joel ·
Paul, if you have the ECU turning the fans on it's fixed at 95c so if your gauge is reading 110c when the fans cut in its just reading a bit high.
I had the same problem when I first got mine running they were coming on at 104c but it was really 95 and my temp gauge was just reading high.
You can put the sender in a boiling jug and see how the gauge reads, thats how I found out how off mine was.
You would know if it was getting upto 110c, thats starting to get pretty hot, they usually start to boil over between 115-120.
It would be spitting out alot of coolant into the overflow.
Sunnyjim ·
Bad 62 thanks for the reminder
Joel lt is good you said that about the gauge . I never thought a gauge could be that inaccurate
Could below be part of the problem?
the VDO gauge was in a kit . The sensor is still in the sump plug of the aircooled 1600 donk. Now I have the VDO temp gauge connected to the EJ22 temp sensor. So Is this this a mismatch? .
I bought another gauge with a new sensor that I plan lo put into one of the radiator hoses and see what happens
Joel ·
Sunnyjim wrote:Now I have the VDO temp gauge connected to the EJ22 temp sensor. So Is this this a mismatch?
There's the problem.
Actually this is dejavu, I've got 2 friends in the US that have both got EJ22 conversions running in the last few weeks and thought they were running hot.
Both had connected their aftermarket temp gauges up to the stock EJ22 temp sender which makes the gauge read about 20c high.
If you run the inline sender make sure its in the top hose before it goes through the rads otherwise it will give a false low reading.
You can just fit the sender into stock spot on the coolant manifold but you may need to clearance the lip inside which is delicate work.
some aftermarket senders are too fat to fit inside it.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
I was hoping for a big break through, over the weekend it didn't happen. Not exactly sure what is going on.
I liked the idea of thinking The VDO gauge was wrong. But I then connected the coolant sensor wire to another temp gauge, this one a digital. Temps the same.
so I am thinking..".
Is it possible the EJ coolant sensor is not standard and needs to be matched to a subaru temp gauge?
OR Perhaps the coolant sensor might need checking? But it looks a nightmare to get to. So before I do that I can at least check those 2 temp gauges . I have bought a temp sensor and connect it to those temp gauges. If I put the temp sensor the boiling water and get 100 degrees it proves the gauges.
I was wondering about my thermostat, replaced it, still no change, also boiled those 2 up. Nope they are good . I love this shot. Now I know how a thermostat works.
One thing I have noticed, the 2 heater hoses I ran up to the dashboard seem to be very hot but twin rads and upper hose seems cold . The bottom hoses seem hotter but I cant feel much flow going through them . Even though I have proved the thermostat is ok it doesn't feel like much flow is going through the radiators.
Silly question. Is there a wrong way to connect the radiators?. I have connected out of the pump to the bottom of the radiator. As it is all one closed loop this shouldn't matter.
I thought of air locks but I have now got Over 5 litres in there and got a lot of air out.
I installed 2 other temp sensors, One in the upper hose and one in the lower hose will soon check these temps after proving the gauges are ok
All it seems so far is full flow seems to go though the heater hose loop but not much through the radiators.. I installed the new water pump, took the timing belt cover off and I can see the pump roller is turning nicely
what about this for an idea? If I remove the thermostat run it for all while and see it the temps are different ?
Joel ·
The stock temp gauge sender in the coolant manifold only works correctly with the stock subi dash temp gauge.
For some reason it runs a much higher value than most aftermarket gauges which is why they are all reading high when connected to it.
If you put your aftermarket temp gauges sender in that adapter and put it in the top hose you'll be good to go if you didnt want to remove and swap the stock one.
Sunnyjim wrote:One thing I have noticed, the 2 heater hoses I ran up to the dashboard seem to be very hot but twin rads and upper hose seems cold.
I might have missed it but what is your heater setup?
That is a potential problem.
The subaru cooling system uses the heater circuit to control the opening and closing of the thermostat.
That works fine in a stock Subaru setup but if you have some very long heater lines to the front of the car and also a big heater core the return line might have lost a lot of heat by the time it gets back to the water pump which would keep the thermstat closed.
Its actually a pretty common problem in Kombi and Carravelle conversions and most people put in a heater bypass so the thermostat isnt relying on the heater circuit any more.
taking the thermostat out will confirm that theory but it will take a lot longer to heat up and they stay in closed loop mode (sort of like a choke mode) till the water is above a set temp which will play havoc on your fuel consumption and overall engine life span.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
thanks for the quick reply , as i had exhausted my limited knowledge.
I currently have 2 * 16mm heater hoses run up to the dash, but they're just connected together as a big loop. to and from are both same temp
It is starting to make a little more sense to me now . Still need clarifying, As I read haynes it quotes 89-98 models so it is hard to know if they talk about ej22 or ej25 sometimes.
Does my 1989 ej22 have 1 or 2 sensors? I read 1 is connected to the ECU and the other to the dash gauge?or maybe that is on a later ej25 model? As I have an AM auto wiring loom, i assumed the coolant temp sensor wire goes to the ECU then the ECU will drive the dash gauge
Do you suggest I find the wires that go to the stock coolant sensor, disconnect them and re-connect them to the new position in the upper radiator hose. ( I just leave the original one where it is., disconnected)
see below i have already mounted the aftermarket sensor
If i change to a new sensor , does it confuse the ECU at all? As the engine management system also uses this sensor for air to fuel ratio mixtures ?
I thought of just removing the thermostat temporarily so i can get full flow through the radiators as I haven't had this yet. This would at least prove I don't have a blockage like a rag stuck in there somewhere. I should see low temp and definitely not 120 degrees?
Joel ·
No worries Paul
If the heater lines are just looped they should still be ok and shouldnt be losing too much heat even being that long.
Might be an issue once the heater is connected though.
The single temp sender was a late 90s onwards thing.
Yours being an 89 EJ22 it will have 2 sensors same as mine did:
The brown one is the ECU sender and the smaller brass one is just for the temp gauge.
THe ECU has no connection at all with the guage sender, only the bigger brown one so nothing is effected by changing the gauge one.
The stock Subi temp gauge sender is only good for Subaru dash gauges so Al and Miles would be wiring it up on the assumption people would be swapping the sender for the one that matches the gauge used if its not going back in a Subaru vehicle.
It would be a nightmare to swap in a Kombi so I would just connect the temp gauge wire to your sender in the adapter up top.
Don;t forget the ground wire for the adapter too.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
all makes sense now,I now know the next steps
Miles confirmed they leave that temp wire there On the assumption I would replace the sender with an aftermarket
I also have a oil pressure and oil temp gauge I want to install . Can you tell me the ideal locations?
oil pressure ? put a dual sender at the existing pressure sander spot?
oil temp ? Can I also use the oil pressure sender spot? or perhaps in the sump plug ?
Joel ·
There is 2 ways you can go about adding oil pressure gauge.
1st is how I've done it which just a tee piece where the stock sender is under the alternator so you can fit the guage sender as well as the light sender.
Only problem with that spot is you have to watch alternator clearance.
The other way is there is at the flywheel end of the block there is a second port with a blank plug in it.
You can get a 90 degree elbow and fit the sender there but its very tight.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel and all who are interested.. breaking news
I just could not believe it , subie stock temp sensor with an after market VDO temp gauge was out by over 50 degrees!!!!
Now I think of it of course it makes sense , they were not made to work together.
So previously when I read the gauge at 120d it really might have been only 70 and the thermostat had not fully opened hence no flow in the twin rads.
So I put in a temp sensor in the upper rad hose and now the fans come on at 100d. In fact I am not sure this is accurate because i have 3 temp sensors in and got them mixed up, but only 5 degrees out sounds a whole lot better. I will boil some water this weekend and see which one is closest to 100.
Then an even a better omen for cooling status ... once the fans kicked in , even though the kombi is stationary I immediately saw a 5 deg drop
i have not completed all the shrouding , so it should get better
I just want to get this done so soon my weekends are free!
Sunnyjim ·
I remember the sender for the VDO gauge is still stuck in the sump of my air cooled motor, so at least they were a pair. A good chance then of being reasonably accurate
I will get it out set it up and test.
I had 2 senders and using the 100d boiiling water test , one tested 14d low and the other 15d high. I got a variable resistor and inserted it n series with the one that read high and once again with boiling water with an extra 35ohms inserted I was able to get it to display 100d.
I dont know why but I now have a high idle 950-110 RPMS and then I went for a drive got it warm and it is sitting at 1100 . It wont go lower than about 950
I don't think I have a leak and it is not running rough either
Anyone know what I should check next? I think it should idle at 850rpm?
vlad01 ·
is the IAC connected? can you confirm its working?
throttle stop maybe adjusted incorrectly and the IAC can't reduce enough and hit it's limits as of result.
Air leak is possible.
Problem with the TPS. Faulty TPS will default to high idle coz the ECU can't tell if the TB is at what position so it bumps the idle high to prevent stalling.
no or fault VSS will make the idle weird but not normally constantly high, more like low idel when rolling at speed, stalling without warning when pulling up. Normally if all works correctly the idle is bumped up when driving ( while rolling in N, the idle will be high) to allow smooth transition when stopping to a normal idle.
Sunnyjim ·
Vlad
Yes I was wondering about the IAC . I dont know much about it . I will have to read up on it.
I still dont have my check light hooked up. Would his problem show up?
Sunnyjim ·
Vlad
I also don't have the VSS set up yet. But I also thought Ihu is not Contributing to the problem .
Am I right i f it was an airleak would the idle be rough? Mine is smooth
vlad01 ·
yeah the CEL should show general problems.
No VSS generally causes issue with idle going to and from standstill/driving.
Air leak won't cause rough idle, just high idle and possible hunting of the idle.
Joel ·
Gday Paul, good news on the temp gauge.
if you want a true indication of what its running at the ECU turns the fans on at 95c and back off when it drops to 90c.
that is done off the ECU temp sender so its always accurate, it will throw the code and run the fans constantly in safe mode if the sender goes bad.
Speaking of you need to get a check engine light hooked up, that will help work out any issues like your high idle.
No VSS is not helping that makes it idle silly and stall alot but safe mode for a faulty TPS like Vlad says is to bump the idle up to 1500.
vlad01 ·
I suppose one thing you can do is pull the IAC out, watch it as you switch the ignition on. Should see the valve moving inward as soon as ignition is switched on.
Joel ·
Its a PITA to remove because of the coolant lines running through it but with the ECU in diagnostic mode it cycles it open and closed.
You can hear if its operating.
vlad01 ·
Joel wrote:Gday Paul, good news on the temp gauge.
if you want a true indication of what its running at the ECU turns the fans on at 95c and back off when it drops to 90c.
that is done off the ECU temp sender so its always accurate, it will throw the code and run the fans constantly in safe mode if the sender goes bad.
Speaking of you need to get a check engine light hooked up, that will help work out any issues like your high idle.
No VSS is not helping that makes it idle silly and stall alot but safe mode for a faulty TPS like Vlad says is to bump the idle up to 1500.
The ECU temp is a good reference but not always reliable.
Had them go way out of range before without triggering CEL. Also had ECU read temps right but not switch the fan on, but did in diag mode fine. Ended up cooking the engine because of that glitch 🤪
Most reliable way is thermocouple in near where the ECU sensor is and cross checking. The thermocouple is the most accurate device for checking temps.
vlad01 ·
Joel wrote:Its a PITA to remove because of the coolant lines running through it but with the ECU in diagnostic mode it cycles it open and closed.
You can hear if its operating.
was wondering if suby did that or not. good to know they do.
but even if you can hear it, doesn't mean its moving. Stepper motors make a racket moving or physically jammed. Seen them gunked up with carbon and they buzz away trying to move.
Joel ·
Subis are notorious for carboned up IACVs, especially phase 1 engines where the PCV is directly above it.
That is one of the main reasons Subaru market the upper engine cleaner is to help keep the IACV clean.
I Youtubed the last one I did, I thought it was pretty clean to I saw how much crap came out of it.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel and Vlad
Thanks for the good ideas.
I am gonna get some of that subaru cleaner first. That seems the easiest thing.
Someone told me I can loosen the IAC valve to adjust the rpms down? Does that sound right?
vlad01 ·
nope, the idea of the IAC is the ECU controls the idle using the IAC, anything you do will only upset the ECU and it will try to compensate to get back to where it wants to.
Joel ·
The holes are slotted and twisting it alters the idle speed but it is not going to work properly whilst ever it doesnt have a VSS signal
vlad01 ·
That's kinda retarded and seems pointless , does the ECU have a desired idle speed it aims for?
The only thing I can think for having a manual adjustment is to get the IAC steps within spec @ desired normal idle. But that is always done but the throttle stop screw. That leads to the question, does suby have a stop screw?
Joel ·
vlad01 wrote:does the ECU have a desired idle speed it aims for?
No, its really strange on phase 1 engines actually, instead of a desired idle speed it just has a desired IACV position that it always returns to.
So it can be set high or low by twisting the stepper motor but without a VSS signal input it doesnt know whats going on when revs are up coasting with no throttle and shuts it too far trying to bring revs back to idle speed which is why the stalling happens.
My first ECU had some sort of fault and the idle up for A/C didnt work and it was almost stalling at idle when the A/C cut in.
I got around that by bumping the idle speed up to 900 till I got another ECU, stock idle speed is around 750
vlad01 ·
That's really retarded design actually. I thought all 80s onward ECU had the basics of a idle feedback. Aiming for a target, watching step count vs RPM.
Most ECUs I have played with that are hackable the idle is set in the tune.
Sunnyjim ·
Guys
thanks for the comments
I will soon uk he upper engine cleaner, install the vss and CEL and then take it from here
Sunnyjim ·
hey Guys
I have now rearranged the cooling hoses. I got one of those aeropro in line radiator caps . so I can fill up at a high point. I also made a T into the top hose and connected to the bottom heater hose.
Is that enough to reduce air locks ?
Sunnyjim ·
Guys I should have asked what are the ideal locations to fill into ?
Sunnyjim ·
i have the rad cap up high just under the top of the hatch
Sunnyjim ·
Hi all
whats the verdict on EJ22 replacement thermostats?
I bought a replacement on the left what I was told was subie. It clearly is different , looks less substantial in metal content and weight. I tested both ok but put the bigger original back in.
I found dayco and trident? brand thermostats always ran much colder than advertised temp. on average 10-15ºC colder.
I only buy genuine stats for any car now after going though half a dozen or so of the popular brand with same problem.
Sunnyjim ·
Brent
your picture shows it looks like an original
Vlad i will stay with my original as it still tests OK
mackaymanx ·
I've used three of these so far with no trouble, while not "genuine" they are made by the company that supplies Subaru.
Sunnyjim ·
l made a big step today . I got the check Engine light hooked up and working. I found Haynes a bit confusing in what plugs to connect but I googled and found when I connected the Black"Read" connector and green one disconnected I got some codes up.
I Got
21 - Coolant Temp sensor
22 - knock sensor
24 - Air control valve
31 Throttle position sensor
Now I dont yet have a vss connected, interesting I didnt get the code for that- 33
l dont yet know if these are new or old codes, so I need to understand how to cancel and see if they Come up again
vlad01 ·
it may be possible with TPS signal missing that the conditions for determining VSS faults is dependent on those.
I know they are with other ECUs I played with.
here is an example for delco 808
"24- VSS. No speed sensor pulses when engine between 2000-4000 rpm,
throttle closed, high vacuum, not in neutral and all for 5
seconds"
The codes are stored in the RAM, they are cleared when the ECU is completely powered off for a number of sec.
Sunnyjim ·
VLAD
thanks for the feedback it helps me with my plan for tomorrow . I was hoping someone would comment tonight.
l didnt quite know if I have new or old codes. Is it as simple as disconnecting battery for l minute or more and I can be sure the codes are new and real?
Tomorrow l try to hook up the VSS kit to eliminate another possible trouble area
I bought the smallcar kit that attaches to drive shafts
in hindsight might have been easier to buy the RJES kit that just . attaches to the dash Speedo cable.
vlad01 ·
its should clear after a min or 2 without the battery. you can recheck the codes once there is power again but without starting the engine assuming its doesn't log codes until the engine is running. Usually there is a engine runtime delay before any error codes are logs and displayed (my experience nominal 30 sec).
this is just speculation based on other ECUs I have experience with and could be totally wrong for the suby ECUs but I can't imagine them being completely different to the OBD standards as thats what it is, a standard.
Sunnyjim ·
VLAD
Ok I will reset as you suggest , install the vss see if That changes keep
I guess if I can fix all the things causing the codes I might fix my high idle speed.
vlad01 ·
well code 24 shows your IAC has a fault, thats likely cause and TPS (24) fault will cause idle problems too.
you got a lot of error codes there 😀
Joel ·
There is a procedure to clear the faults but its long and complicated they will clear with no power but how long that takes depends on how good the ECUs internal battery is.
my first ecu only took 15 mins to clear as the battery was stuffed but my current one needs over 48 hours before it forgets stored codes.
vss code very rarely appears, only if it gets an abnormal signal, but the idle control valve fault is from not running a vss.
knock sensor is pretty normal, youll find the housing is probably full of cracks, mine sometimes throws the code if the sensor gets wet.
the green check connectors plugged in and ignition on is the ecu going through everything looking for faults, black plugs is just reading stored faults.
the coolant temp may have just been unplugged while you were mucking about with temp gauges, that will do it, they dont often go bad.
vlad01 ·
battery? really? these get stranger and stranger. have you seen the battery in them? or are you referring to the capacitors in them? coz caps can store charge for quite some time.
joel, you saying these can't tell if the vss is missing based on other info?
can't see how the IAC fault can be caused by missing vss, all other ECUs i work with fault the IAC if the steps or PWM in case of EEC4 bosch unit don't yield any idle speed or vacuum changes.
to really see if these are faults the the ecu sees currently, if may have to be connected up to a laptop with suitable software and read the ECU data real time if that is even possible with suby ECUs?
Joel ·
I've still got my original donor cars ECU in storage somewhere, I had to replace it as the A/C controls didnt work, I'll crack it open and see if there is a battery visible but could be capacitors like you say too.
It with the battery disconnected for under 15 mins wouldnt erase the codes but longer than that they were gone yet this new replacement one even after 2 full days still had them stored, it took 2 and half full days before they cleared.
I've never tried the manual clear process, it;s just too involved.
With the no VSS causing the IACV fault it really is pretty simple.
It happens during coasting.
If you have no speed input the ECU thinks the car is not moving and when coasting the TPS shows the throttle is shut so as far as the ECU is concerned the car is sitting idling but if you are doing say 60km/h and in 4th gear it will be spinning over at 2000rpm.
Thats when the ECU goes shit I cant get it back to 750rpm, IACV must be faulty.
You can even see it bring the check engine light on at those times.
I know a lot of people with early EJ engines that have run without speed sensors, it's pretty common most people just live with the little idiosyncracies it causes rather than pay for or make a VSS but they all get IACV fault but not one has ever got VSS fault.
No idea what it takes for the ECU to sense a VSS fault but just no signal at all doesnt do it.
vlad01 ·
seems a bit primitive with the coding if its can't determine if the VSS isn't there and chucks a IAC fault instead. 🙁 I wonder if suby ECU can even tell which gear its in?
comparatively speaking Delco/Delphi and bosch units from mid 80s can tell easily what is going in.
if it sees the rpm high, closed TPS, no speed and trys to lower idle it will see no effect on rpm. it looks at the MAP reading and determine its in an overrun state based on RPM vs MAP ( when in the
vlad01 ·
errr? half my post disappeared after it was posted?
I can't be bothered typing that out again😬
Joel ·
The early EJs just have nice simple management, thats what makes them good for conversions, they run an AFM not a map sensor right uptil the late 90s and the manuals just have a neutral position sensor.
They do have a clutch switch too but I think that was just for the starter safety interlock on overseas models and the cruise control.
vlad01 ·
Do the newer ones run MAF or MAP?
Most people including myself prefer MAP, its easier to tune and fastest response time and not limited unlike MAF which have a frequency range( for hot wire type ) and max metered air flow they can read.
Pretty popular at least in the general sense to do MAF-less conversions. ie. convert to MAP based systems.
Sunnyjim ·
hey Joel
I watched your Boosted VW videos , well done !
If I get the SA459 Subaru upper engine cleaner and spray it through the throttle body manifold will that also clean out the IAC
Trying to avoid taking the IAC out at this stage
Sunnyjim ·
what''s better sa459 or seafoam?
does it make a difference?
vlad01 ·
For intake system, I dissemble everything, paint all metal components and synthetic resin plastic parts in paint stripper and pressure wash.
Comes up brand spanking new! will little effort, even all the carbon goes normally in the first go.
Joel ·
Hi Paul.
I've only ever used the Subaru upper engine cleaner so can't comment on seafoam but the Americans rave about it.
Does anyone actually sell it in Oz?
Which video did you see? the one where i used the SA459 or the IACV service?
best way to clean up the IACV without removing it is shown in the IACV service vid by removing the hose to it and pumping some SA459 into the valve as well as the manifold.
You can go one step further and remove the electronic controller and manually open and close the valve to make sure its rotating smoothly and really get the cleaner moving around in there.
vlad01 wrote:Do the newer ones run MAF or MAP?
Most people including myself prefer MAP, its easier to tune and fastest response time and not limited unlike MAF which have a frequency range( for hot wire type ) and max metered air flow they can read.
Pretty popular at least in the general sense to do MAF-less conversions. ie. convert to MAP based systems.
they are MAP from about 98 onwards.
You wont get any arguments that MAP is better but the stock MAF on early setups works perfectly well and changing to MAP is pretty well impossible without swapping to aftermarket management or just late model stock management.
Sunnyjim ·
Hi Joel
I saw the one where you removed the IAC on the bench and all the black squid ink came out
I was wondering if i just spray the SA459 up top through the intake will it get down below and clean out the IAC? ( i am hoping this )
as the donk is already installed into the kombi engine bay it is a bit tight in there and hard to get to the IAC.
if u think spraying up top cleans everywhere I will try that thru the intake otherwise I just have to bang my head a bit , skiin my knuckles and try to get to that IAC
As for for the CEL codes I am still a little confused . I have read different views. If i remove power for a day does it clear the codes or do I actually have to go thru some procedure?, e.g. connecting black and green connectors , going for a drive etc.
Joel ·
Hi Paul,
I would spray the cleaner in from both the purge valve port on the throttle body and down the 19mm hose that leads from the plastic intake hose to the IACV.
You get best results with that stuff doing it on a warmed engine and let it sit for atleast 15mins.
You have nothing to lose trying it anyway.
Leaving your battery disconnected will erase all the stored error codes, but you will have to experiement to see how long it needs to be disconnected, as I was saying one of mine is only 15mins, the other in the car now takes almost 3 days.
This is the manual process for resetting but I've never tried, I just leave the battery disconnected.
This may not work without a functioning VSS though.
With engine at operating temperature, turn engine off. Place gear shift lever into park (auto transmission cars only).
· Locate the two ECU check connectors, for most cars they are located under the steering column and consist of a black plastic male and female connector, and a green male female connector. The exact location of the connectors varies with the different year models, but generally they are located under the steering column on the drivers side.
NOTE: sometimes they are still taped over with some small amount of plastic tape, so look hard, they will be there!
With the ignition OFF connect black to black and green to green.
· Turn on ignition, do not start the engine, (and for auto transmission, cycle the gearshift lever from park to neutral and back to park ), depress the accelerator pedal to full throttle and hold for a few seconds, and then release. Start engine and then drive for at least one minute, keeping road speed above 10 mph.
· ECU is now re-set.
· At this point the check engine light should start to flash the all clear signal (steady 1/2 second interval flashes). If the check engine light does not flash, or indicates some other sequence, there is a fault present in the system, and should be checked for necessary repairs.
· Once done, stop the car and turn off the engine.
· Disconnect the plugs.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel lhx for the advice
I am wondering if the reason is there is no consistent time it takes to erase codes is the fact it is a 20 year old ECU and I guess it might have some lithium or energiser bunny cell in it ?
Just like in the TV ad some can go longer than others?
Joel ·
I'm going to crack my old one open on the weekend and see if I can see a battery inside.
vlad01 ·
take a pic and post it up. be interested to see the guts
vlad01 ·
Sunnyjim wrote:Joel lhx for the advice
I am wondering if the reason is there is no consistent time it takes to erase codes is the fact it is a 20 year old ECU and I guess it might have some lithium or energiser bunny cell in it ?
Just like in the TV ad some can go longer than others?
CR type lithium batteries have 10 year shelf life, some non volatile RAM chips with integrated CR button cells have lasted over 20 years, seen one on youtube that still operating 27 years!
But this said, I never ever seen an ECU with a battery unless I have replaced the EPROM with NVRAM chip, which has a battery inside the chip.
vlad01 ·
Joel wrote:Hi Paul.
I've only ever used the Subaru upper engine cleaner so can't comment on seafoam but the Americans rave about it.
Does anyone actually sell it in Oz?
Which video did you see? the one where i used the SA459 or the IACV service?
best way to clean up the IACV without removing it is shown in the IACV service vid by removing the hose to it and pumping some SA459 into the valve as well as the manifold.
You can go one step further and remove the electronic controller and manually open and close the valve to make sure its rotating smoothly and really get the cleaner moving around in there.
vlad01 wrote:Do the newer ones run MAF or MAP?
Most people including myself prefer MAP, its easier to tune and fastest response time and not limited unlike MAF which have a frequency range( for hot wire type ) and max metered air flow they can read.
Pretty popular at least in the general sense to do MAF-less conversions. ie. convert to MAP based systems.
they are MAP from about 98 onwards.
You wont get any arguments that MAP is better but the stock MAF on early setups works perfectly well and changing to MAP is pretty well impossible without swapping to aftermarket management or just late model stock management.
challenge accepted! 😎 lol who wants a MAF-less drop in EFI system for EJ to VW conversion system?
Sunnyjim ·
Dug around
PCV really clogged at first thought someone has put a blanking plug as it was siezed shut. Worked it with a hole punch and some cleaner and got it working again
l dont. know if that is good enough or not . Perhaps I will still order a new one
as you remember my issue is I have a high Idle . at 950-1100 rpm . I notice after I fixed the PCV it is more like 850-950
I bit the bullet and went down to the IAC It was gunky but not as bad as in Joel's youtube videos. Cleaned it all out.
Then had a look at the coolant temp sensor as this is one of the 4 CEL Codes I have .
Using boiling water 212 F or 100C the resistance should be 176 ohms but mine was 220-360 Ohms. I did the test a few times.
So I dont know how accurate these things should be but according to Haynes and their temp chart the sensor is telling the ECU it is only 85C but it Is really 100C
So to be safe I should order a new coolant temp sensor
Brings me to the question what is the best E bay Site for quality subaru spares?
vlad01 ·
that would make your engine run richer than it should. i maybe throwing a code due to never "reaching" operating temp, well as the ECU sees it anyway.
Sunnyjim ·
vlad where do u order your subie parts from?
I will need ot pick up a coolant temp sensor and a pcv valve and cannot take the chance on quality
vlad01 ·
I don't, I use GM EFI stuff for just about everything but I do(readily available parts, very tunable), but have good experience with most EFI systems and had some experience wiring a suby EFI for an light plane some years ago, was pretty much like anything else except the odd connectors they use.
Im actually curious to know where you can buy suby EFI stuff myself, would love to make in my spare time a hybrid system running on a delco and mafless.
All the Japanese EFI stuff seems to be hard to find and obscure, only GM(delphi/delco) and Bosch are the well documented and readily available.
I get my gear from EFIconnection.com including even color coded wire because the quality is there unlike the EFI shops in Oz which I ended binning most of the stuff except one genuine Nissan connector. 👎
Good range of genuine connectors with eficonnection.
I just get all my stuff through my local subi garage he'll get in any parts I need, let me know if you dont have any joy, but one thing I've learned is go genuine parts all the way.
They are not usually much dearer and work/fit right every time.
Anyway this better be worth voiding my 22 year extended warranty for....
Cracked it open and no battery in there.
must be capacitors, although 48+hours memory is pretty impressive on a 20 year old ECU.
The only part I can't really identify is this one marked X-tal
Any thoughts?
I dont really want to delve too much deeper, this all ECU still works fine except for the A/C controls which was the reason I had to replace it.
vlad01 ·
wow so much stuff and even a daughter board!
That thing is a quartz crystal, used for the clock generator for that processor next to it (the big chip) clock as in cyclic computation metronome like function, not clock as time you see on the wall
there is an empty socket there, which looks like an EPROM should be there. I wonder where the calibration and software is kept then?
Looks like there is no conformal coating either? hmmm.
Here is an ECU I am using atm for one of the projects with few mods. SXR board, allows higher speed serial data for logging and communication to the BCM, this ECU din't have those capabilities but now does. 😵💫
Also Dallas NVRAM which is a like an EPROM but can be written to at anytime through the ECU itself via the serial data. Which I just plug my laptop into the interface under the steering column.
There is a standard (coverless) memcal piggyback on the NVRAM board which allows use of the knock filter (white ceramic chip looking thing) and limp home mode network resistors.
Going to be setting one of these up for a mate but with USB port communications board in place of where I used the SXR so the ECU will directly connect to USB. Going to power a 5L EFI engine conversion on his SLR5000.
Joel, what does the Suby use for the crank trigger? its it a reluctor or haul effect sensor? I can't recall but seem to think it was reluctor?
roverv8bay ·
G'day Vlad this as turned into a very informative thread maybe need to build a thread separate on what to look for & how to rectify. 10 years ago when I did the mates EJ20 turbo into his syncro there was no on line help after several weeks of driving it daily it would go into limp mode finally after back tracking I found 2 green & black wires 1 was for the VSS the other cruise control changed the wires over & never looked back. for people wanting to have ago at doing their own a separate thread put together from members like yourself would be a great investment on the site. My 2 bobs worth
ernie
Joel ·
Sorry Paul I feel like I'm totally hijacking your post here.
vlad01 wrote:Joel, what does the Suby use for the crank trigger? its it a reluctor or haul effect sensor? I can't recall but seem to think it was reluctor?
I cant vouch for the later stuff with variable valve timing but earlier ones like mine the crank and cam are just hall effect.
I didn't realise how much you tooled around with ECUs, I did have a 3rd one but i chucked it out as it threw a constant purge solenoid fault I would have sent it to you to have a play with.
Are aftermarket ecu much hassle to get dialed in?
a mate messaged me last night he has a couple of motec ecus I can fiddle with, I normally just stick to stock management for the plug and play factor.
Sunnyjim ·
joel
no worries ,if threads take a little detour .I am happy to learn new stuff. I have still been getting the answers to the questions I asked and moving ahead.
made progress on weekend
- IAC really cleaned out
- PCV was clogged,think i fixed it but still got a new one
- got a new coolant temp sensor
- bought some SA459 wil give that a go
I will aim this weekend to put it all back together and see if that has fixed the high idle
vlad01 ·
Joel wrote:Sorry Paul I feel like I'm totally hijacking your post here.
vlad01 wrote:Joel, what does the Suby use for the crank trigger? its it a reluctor or haul effect sensor? I can't recall but seem to think it was reluctor?
I cant vouch for the later stuff with variable valve timing but earlier ones like mine the crank and cam are just hall effect.
I didn't realise how much you tooled around with ECUs, I did have a 3rd one but i chucked it out as it threw a constant purge solenoid fault I would have sent it to you to have a play with.
Are aftermarket ecu much hassle to get dialed in?
a mate messaged me last night he has a couple of motec ecus I can fiddle with, I normally just stick to stock management for the plug and play factor.
Yes looked into efi for long time. But couldn't get my head around the aftermarket units. Too much proprietary licensing cost and big $$ for tuning. I originally wanted to go ms3 path for running a v6 Buick but in my pursuit for hardware I stumbled across the powerful stock delco units and stock ecu hacking and tuning really got exciting.
Most stock ecus are hackable. But the important thing I learned is no aftermarket ecu even comes close to the highly developed code that is factory. Manufactures spent decades and 100s millions developing this stuff. The code is going to be better than aftermarket. The only thing is having minds capable of hacking and harnessing the capabilities of stock units
In all honestly I don't think I'll ever bother with aftermarket units just because they limited in function. Anyway going to the suby crank sensor. Hall effect sounds good. Delcos use them as standard. I think it's possible to use a Bosch ignition module from camira. Or maybe one of me homies developed universal ignition modules and run individual coils and then I can configure what ever crank trigger I like via software.
Sunnyjim ·
who knows what about the IAC resting state? open ? closed or partially open?
I think i have the cooling now sorted, I just have a high idle 950 rpms. It does not vary much although seems to go higher when it is real warm. It is a smooth idle . Not a varying one as per a vacuum leak
am I right it should be possible to get it to idle at 750rpm?
So I took IAC and hoses apart , the coolant sensor impedance was out of range although it did vary with hot water. I still replaced it.
I found the PVC valve was rusted shut , so I replaced that.
My throttle body screw looks ok , still has white paint on from the factory
accel cabel looks ok
throttle body looks clean inside. I then took the IAC out cleaned it all out. I marked the body so I can put it back together same way. I did take the top of the magnet , it moved nicely and freely.
reinstalled all now have codes
12 - starter switch
22 knock sensor
23 Airflow sensor
24 air control valve
Looks like I fixed the coolant one
I did replace the knock sensor , I will check it again
-what do u think about starter switch code?
i checked there is battery voltage at the IAC. I then whilst engine running loosened the 2 screws on the IAC and I was able to rotate the IAC , I got the engine to reduce to 850rpm nicely down 100 from 950rpm.
I don't know what is the resting state of the IAC, is it possible is out of range and the ECU cant close it? I am sure when I pulled it out the back vane was open.
I was thinking pulling it apart again rotating the shaft so the back vane is just closed.?
I was guessing when warm, the ECU closes the vane and when cold it opens for more air
I read you don't normally adjust like a carby the ECU does it but I am wondering if it is out of range.
Joel ·
Hi Paul, dont worry too much about the vane position when the engine is off, it will correct it as soon as you turn the igntion on.
They are always open a bit initially, that is why fuel injected engines rev up on their own then settle back to idle when you first start them.
as long as the screws for the iacv top motor arent all the way to one side of the slots its set right,
mine are biased more to the clockwise direction though.
one thing to consider is the ecu will bump the idle up if there is a fault detected with various parts like air flow meter, throttle position senser etc.
Also double check for vac leaks, there is a lot of unused manifold vac ports for cruise control, climate control, brake booster, purge solenoid etc in an engine conversion which may have got left open.
the starter switch is a common one in conversions as it gets forgotten about.
a wire from the ecu needs to be piggybacked to the starter wire so the ecu knows you are cranking and it alters the timing for easier starting.
the knock sensor may take some time to sort itself out.
When I replaced mine it took 10mins of driving before the computer realised and the code stopped
vlad01 ·
shouldn't the ECU immediately give the ok with knock sensor? after all they do have a shunt resistor internally so the ECU knows if its connected and functioning correctly.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
It has me a little intrigued , this IAC
Is there a better book than the haynes? is there a bentley like for VW , they are good
haynes does not explain enough, it says when the IAC is removed the vane should be closed otherwise it needs to be replaced!
So I interpret this as the back vane is normally closed without any ECU power. Engine running, The ECU would apply voltage and open and close it with some type of duty cycle
I am going to kick myself if i find it is some small vacuum leak 😬
please remind me again- I have a constant idle 950, it does not hunt or vary too much. it may change with engine
I thought a vacuum leak means they idle will hunt or swing noticably??
Sunnyjim ·
I meant to say -- I have a constant idle 950, it does not hunt or vary too much. it may change with engine temp, as it warms up
Joel ·
Admittedly I've only dealt eith gen1 IACV but none of them were spring loaded, the vane just freewheels with no resistance.
Is your check engine light constantly on?
as you are gettin AFM fault im wondering if its just the ecu bumping the idle up in safe mode.
as for manuals I dont have any paper oned, ive just got a PDF subaru workshop msnual somewhere on file.
I can email it if I can find it, ( might have got lost in a harddrive crash)
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
yes my CEL has those 4 codes still on
I think the starter switch may go away as I broke the ignition switch.
I am going to have another go this weekend, also really inspect for the faintest leak
that would be great if u did have a better Ej22 manual
Joel ·
So you got it to clear all the codes?
The manual is proper Subaru workshop manual, the entire thing is over 900 pages.
I'm sure I have the zipped PDF of it somewhere but just need to find it.
The chapter on fuel injection (2.7a) has a really good section on how to test and diagnose all the sensors.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
that great, I will use that site a lot
I found the haynes just does go into enough detail
Sunnyjim ·
I found the haynes just does not go into enough detail
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
that manual is great, craps on Haynes
They don't call it an IAC instead a Bypass Air control valve. Now it makes a lot more sense that it mentions it has a Bi-metallic strip in side. It reacts with hot coolant to close it .
Now I understand the simplistic instructions in Haynes
Once the engine coolant is warm this IAC valve when removed should appear to be closed.
Sunnyjim ·
well with all the Rain it was hard to work on sunnyjim out In the open
But I progressed.
I managed to install the oil pressure Sender. Not as easy as l first thought and in the end l took the cutting disk to the Steering pump / alternator stand
I still have 4 cel Codes. I removed the the IAC again. Dismantled and it looks to move nice and freely. I thought I could adjust the top magnet so as to close the back vane but still no luck. I then thought as it has this magical bi-metallic strip I will boil it up in a pot of wat er and watch the vane close. But still no change
So l really havent proven anything. haynes says when the engine is up to temp if you remove the IAC the back Vane should be closed. Mine was still open. Is it faulty?
according to the book it is. l wish I had another one to substitute
I loosened the 2 IAC screws and reduced the RPMS to 850 rpm but it needs to go 750
the kombi wins this round today.
I still havent proven if I have a good or bad IAC valve
Joel ·
Hi Paul,
the Subi manual says to check the ohms on the stepper motor so see if that electrical side is ok.
if you remove the plug there is 3 terminals in there, if you put one probe on the middle one then check the ohms from both sides they should both read 9ohms if its ok.
I have got the old IACV off my bug if you want to try it out.
It was from my original motor which was destroyed internally from electrolysis due to lack of coolant changes.
It has worked fine on my bug for the last 5 years but I replaced it as the coolant lines were getting a bit crusty from the electrolysis.
I wouldnt rely on it long term but its in working order if you want to try it out.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
that is a kind offer that I may take you up on soon.
I checked the resistance , as you say 9 ohms on both sides.
I also thought , could I have put the magnetic shaft back on wrong? So I tried it but putting it on wrong is almost impossible. I held the vane closed then slid the top cover with magnets back down. The magnets pull the vane back to half to 3/4 closed- a predetermined position.
Should the back vane fully close when coolant is at 100 degrees ? This would be due to the bimetallic strip. Could you check this for me? Haynes said "Run the engine up to op temp , then remove the IAC , The back vane should be closed, if not replace the IAC." if it closed without power to it then I assume it doesn't need a ECU signal to do this , it is just the coolant temp doing it . If you could boil the bottom half of that IAC up does the back vane close or not? Mine doesn' t .
The other simple l thing I have not tried yet , should have thought of it previously is to remove the large hose from the IAC and block both ends off. No air can get through that back vane, . I assume this is like having the vane closed. engine warm, if my idle comes down to 700-750 that proves it is the IAC.
vlad01 ·
Sunnyjim wrote:Joel
that manual is great, craps on Haynes
They don't call it an IAC instead a Bypass Air control valve. Now it makes a lot more sense that it mentions it has a Bi-metallic strip in side. It reacts with hot coolant to close it .
Now I understand the simplistic instructions in Haynes
Once the engine coolant is warm this IAC valve when removed should appear to be closed.
Wow! what a crazy contraption! Seems like a ridiculously long winded way going about something simple a normal IAC can more than do.
Joel ·
They are an absolutely horrid design, they only used them on early Liberties, the 96ish onwards ones are ecu controlled only no coolant.
They never close up completely, the engine wouldnt idle otherwise.
the throttle butterfly completely closes, at idle the IACV is the only source of intake air.
Paul the one on my bug is a nightmare to get at but I had a play with the spare one.
stone cold the back coolant valve was 3/4 open and kept returning to that spot when moved.
with boiling water through it after 5 mins or so it closed a little maybe half way but that was it.
strangely even after an hour cold it still hasnt moved back.
I did get some pics but they are too hard to upload here from my phone.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
Thanks for your help. If you can loan me that IAC I am happy to pay for post to and from.
The way you are describing yours it doesnt sound that different to mine but it will help me confirm
Although I got codes I am surprised that my idle is still in range according to the specs below range 700 to 900 rpms.
l have rotated the IAC anticlockwise and got the RPMS to reduce to approx 830 to 850
I think a 700 to 750 is ldeal
I have to keep checking and solving the codes ie..not to sure how a knock sensor increases idle. For instance l dont understand how the ECU thinks. Is it possible the ECU bumps up idle on various non IAC codes?
Joel ·
No dramas, I'll sort it out with you.
I keep my idle bang on 800 like the specs say, I found any lower causes it to hunt up and down.
WHen it says the valve should be shut its only talking about the outer coolant controlled one, the ECU controlled inner valve does its own thing and stays slightly open whereever the magnetic force keeps it as you found out.
Sunnyjim wrote:Is it possible the ECU bumps up idle on various non IAC codes?
Absolutely, I know from experience it bumps the idle up for airflow meter and Throttle position sensor problems, mainly so the car is still somewhat drivable without stalling.
If you can get yours to 800rpm without maxing out the controller postion in the slots I would say you dont have an issue.
When my old knock sensor gave up the ghost completly (had to do a Homer Simpsons, tape over check engine light, it was blinding at night) it didnt bump the idle up but it definetly went into safe mode with the ignition timing.
could feel it holding back.
vlad01 ·
Joel wrote:They are an absolutely horrid design, they only used them on early Liberties, the 96ish onwards ones are ecu controlled only no coolant.
They never close up completely, the engine wouldnt idle otherwise.
the throttle butterfly completely closes, at idle the IACV is the only source of intake air.
Paul the one on my bug is a nightmare to get at but I had a play with the spare one.
stone cold the back coolant valve was 3/4 open and kept returning to that spot when moved.
with boiling water through it after 5 mins or so it closed a little maybe half way but that was it.
strangely even after an hour cold it still hasnt moved back.
I did get some pics but they are too hard to upload here from my phone.
its crazy to think they would use 70s tech on 90s engine management?
IACs been full ECU controlled at least since early 80s for most cars. This is the first time I seen something like this so late in car evolution. Its like a band-aid for limitations in ECU programing? How could of it been for them to add extra tables for coolant temp vs idle etc... ?
Joel ·
I can only assume it was someones idea of a safeguard if the temp sensor stopped working it will still idle up when cold.
This was all the outer valve did when boiling water was run through it for a while
edit, its put the pics in the wrong order.
Sunnyjim ·
l will also try to reduce other sources of problems. I did the throttle position sensor and switch check, it was Ok
I will also go buy some proper stuff to clean the airflow sensor.
still wondering, although I really have cleaned the IAC well, is it still needed to run
SA459 down through the throttle body.?
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
really appreciate the quick loan of the IAC, it means I can install and test this weekend
At first sight they look just like identical twins . The back vane both seem the same gap and spring back nicely. well slight difference in gap because I have rotated mine a bit more to reduce the idle speed.
My prediction this helps me confirm the IAC is not the issue and I need to keep searching to solve those Codes.
Sunnyjim ·
the Brizzy weather was magnificent today. Resisted the temptation to drive to the GC and cleanse my skin with saltwater. Instead covered myself in kombi grease.
So l got stuck right in. Joel's loan IAC valve arrived earlier in the week. I installed it. Now at first I thought I might be on a winner, as for a minute I saw the revs sit. at 700 or so. But no, l sense the ECU bumped it up to about 850 rpm. Same as before . So I can conclude the IAC value is not the issue.
Joel- thanks, you have saved me going on a wild goose chase, as new IACS are $700 upwards.
l bought proper airflow sensor cleaner, did that. Cleaned the throttle body out and also poured the legendary SA 459 through the upper engine. I think it was doing its thang as it was coughing and spluttering. What did I get in return for all this hardwork? I got 5 codes.
12 starter
22 Knock sensor
23 Airflow sensor
24 Air control valve
31 Throttle sensor
l wish l knew how the ECU thinks.
Some codes have come and gone but the code 22 has been here all along the knock sensor.
original was cracked so I replaced it.- the book says check for short circuit. Nope it is about 880K ohms. but I am not happy, it doesn't seem to click into the electrical connector . Can it be ol' knocker sensor is causing all this trouble? So I totally disconnected it and still no difference.
Does anyone know what should happen with a knock sensor disconnected?
Due to the way knock knock sensor is located I am not 100% sure it Is connected
Need to follow that up
Something tells me I better get a life . Am I becoming Kombi obsessive compulsive?
chellejohno ·
Geez mate I feel for ya. Nothing worse than chasing issues like these, youre a more patient man than I am that's for sure.
You'll sort it, just a process of elimination, just like your doing.
If I start having the same dramas, I'll be moving my thread to the for sale section!
Sunnyjim ·
chellie thanks for the encouragement
As long as feel I am not at a dead end I feel I can keep going. I would now rather be driving it. I am a little embarrassed l may be recognized for the longest time to complete a conversion !
I suspected for a while now that the Issues from codes might not still exist, then I read below and it says removing power is not enough to clear codes. There is a process to go through. A couple of weeks ago l replaced my lghition switch and I am sure that is how I got code 12 . The car starts good, no Issue with starting so that code should have cleared.
Next step is to follow the process and see if I can dean some of these codes.
Sunnyjim wrote:the Brizzy weather was magnificent today. Resisted the temptation to drive to the GC and cleanse my skin with saltwater. Instead covered myself in kombi grease.
So l got stuck right in. Joel's loan IAC valve arrived earlier in the week. I installed it. Now at first I thought I might be on a winner, as for a minute I saw the revs sit. at 700 or so. But no, l sense the ECU bumped it up to about 850 rpm. Same as before . So I can conclude the IAC value is not the issue.
Joel- thanks, you have saved me going on a wild goose chase, as new IACS are $700 upwards.
l bought proper airflow sensor cleaner, did that. Cleaned the throttle body out and also poured the legendary SA 459 through the upper engine. I think it was doing its thang as it was coughing and spluttering. What did I get in return for all this hardwork? I got 5 codes.
12 starter
22 Knock sensor
23 Airflow sensor
24 Air control valve
31 Throttle sensor
l wish l knew how the ECU thinks.
Some codes have come and gone but the code 22 has been here all along the knock sensor.
original was cracked so I replaced it.- the book says check for short circuit. Nope it is about 880K ohms. but I am not happy, it doesn't seem to click into the electrical connector . Can it be ol' knocker sensor is causing all this trouble? So I totally disconnected it and still no difference.
Does anyone know what should happen with a knock sensor disconnected?
Due to the way knock knock sensor is located I am not 100% sure it Is connected
Need to follow that up
Something tells me I better get a life . Am I becoming Kombi obsessive compulsive?
farrrk!!!!! what a price! 🤪
Joel ·
I would disconnect the battery for a couple of days so it wipes the codes so you know you are starting with a clean slate and not reading old codes.
I had a lot of issues with my knock sensor too.
It was old and cracked as they do but still seemed to work ok, it was just every so often throwing the code for a few seconds, just enough to log it in the memory.
The ECU just takes abnormal voltage as being an error code.
When I replaced it I had permanant check engine light and knock sensor code plus I could feel it was holding the ignition timing back a bit.
It was the plug on the new one wasnt as well made and when I clicked them together the male terminal bent and totally missed so the new one wasnt even connected.
Sunnyjim ·
good news, I have cleared all codes and now just have the Knock sensor 22 code left. I have found just removing power isn't enough
there is a process to go through, very helpful http://www.weidefamily.net/vanagon/HTML/05/01/01/03.html
anyway as i suspected these were old codes. i have ordered a new knock sensor. You know I replaced this knock sensor over 1 year ago and never felt comfortable it would not click into the connector. I inspected the harness end and I don't think it was connecting. My Bad...
Sunnyjim ·
Moving ahead even with a little job...
I have the engine checkllight wired up in the engine bay but plan to move it to the dash
here you can see I bought a dash cluster and mounted the check light in here , interesting the PO has already spray painted the back white. I assume to get better gauge illumination
Sunnyjim ·
Over the moon with Joy
During the week the new knock sensor arrived. l plugged it in
what did I see ? the beautiful sight of a CEL "not turned on
No codes now!
Also this sensor does click into the connector. .
Now the idle sits at 700 rpm . I am not 100% happy. I have a lot of smoke almost black and rich .
Not sure if I have a hole in my exhaust or this is just the aftermath of using a can of SA 459
But this makes me happy today.
Joel ·
That was the problem I had with my new knock sensor, I ended up making a new connection.
When the ECU cant detect the knock sensor the safe mode retards the timing by 5 degrees so they run a bit doughy.
Have you driven it since running the cleaner?
it takes a while to burn off, mine left a nice smoke screen about half a KM down the road.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
No not drivable (again) I got the steering wheel off and replacing the ignition switch
Ah that's not too bad, I've done it before- just follow the procedure you posted. It's a really good write up. You're so close!
I thought I'd give you an update on my build, I checked my water temp gauge bias vs. the engine management temp sensor. I found that the gauge reads about 8-14 degrees higher than the ECU, and the bias increases as temperatures increase.
On the highway at about 70 mph my gauge reads 210 degrees but my actual engine temp is 196 degrees. This is on a 95 degree day, and my engine speed was 4500 rpm (I am still running the stock 002 transmission and small tires). At 190 degrees on my gauge, where the needle typically hangs out when driving around town, the ECU was reading 182.
Just an FYI on what to expect. I think re-gearing the transmission to lower the rpms at highway speeds are going to help get the temps down too, 4500 rpm is pretty high for a cruising speed.
It will be interesting to see how different our buses run since we are running different engine management.
Sunnyjim ·
Bucknasty
yes I am so close, I just keep finding little jobs that need to be done. I need a special tool "brazing rod " to unpick the lock.
Interested in hearing about your engine temps , are u using some software tool to read the ECU? Do u have OBD2 or 1?
I also found out a subie engine coolant temp sender is not made to drive a VDO gauge . It was something like 40 degrees out
then I found that even a VDO sender to a VDO gauge is 10% out , that is not real comforting is it ? if the real temp is 100 , the gauge can read anywhere from 90 to 110!!
I was thinking to get the B10scan tool going , interrogate the ECU , see the engine coolant temp and then try to set up a sender and gauge to match this .
regards to 4500 revs at 70 mph , yes that sounds high to me but I am not there yet
what is you plan?
a) suck it and see
b) 2 litre late bay box
c) Subagears 5 speed subie!
d) bigger wheels
e) rebuild with higher 4th gear
Joel ·
Bucknasty wrote:I think re-gearing the transmission to lower the rpms at highway speeds are going to help get the temps down too, 4500 rpm is pretty high for a cruising speed.
You'll notice a improvement in fuel economy and a big drop in oil temps.
Sustained revs that high is what really brings oil temps up with no oil cooler.
I noticed in my bug before I had my trans re-geared and ran undersized back tyres when cruising at 70mph @3700rpm my oil temp crept right up to 110c (230f) but now with my trans regeared and bigger back tyres when I cruise at 70mph its only turning 3200 and the oil temp stays at 95c (203f)
Amazing the difference 500rpm made.
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
yes good point about the revs
this same thing occured to me today as I was driving a mitsu pajero diesel
I think I had 100kmh at 2000 revs, no stress there !
Bucknasty ·
Sunnyjim wrote:Bucknasty
yes I am so close, I just keep finding little jobs that need to be done. I need a special tool "brazing rod " to unpick the lock.
Interested in hearing about your engine temps , are u using some software tool to read the ECU? Do u have OBD2 or 1?
I also found out a subie engine coolant temp sender is not made to drive a VDO gauge . It was something like 40 degrees out
then I found that even a VDO sender to a VDO gauge is 10% out , that is not real comforting is it ? if the real temp is 100 , the gauge can read anywhere from 90 to 110!!
I was thinking to get the B10scan tool going , interrogate the ECU , see the engine coolant temp and then try to set up a sender and gauge to match this .
regards to 4500 revs at 70 mph , yes that sounds high to me but I am not there yet
"Brazing rod" is not necessary, it's just the right size diameter and easy to bend into shape. I think I used a piece of a wire clothes hanger or something like that to do that job. You just need a piece of rod that is stiff enough to release the lock but flexible enough to bend into shape. I hope that helps.
My engine is using a MicroSquirt EFI module instead of the stock Subaru ECU. It is a simplified version of MegaSquirt EFI. You can tune the EFI by using free software called tuner studio. The software is capable of "auto-tuning". You can even get fancy and install a bluetooth sender on the ECU and read it with your phone. No tuning with the phone though.
Jeff hooked up his laptop to the MicroSquirt module to see what the ECU was reading for temps to compare to my SunPro gauge. The sender for the SunPro is installed right next to the stock temp sender for the ECU, so the temp bias has to do with the quality of the sender and gauge. I only paid $20 for that gauge on amazon- I guess you get what you pay for. lol The temp bias issue is not comforting but if you understand how much it is off you can correct for it in your head. Also, Jeff set up my ECU to light up a big red light if my ECU sees the temp hit 225 deg F so I'll know to pull over and let it cool off. Idiot proof, if you will. It has not yet lit up while driving.
Sunnyjim wrote:what is you plan?
a) suck it and see
b) 2 litre late bay box
c) Subagears 5 speed subie!
d) bigger wheels
e) rebuild with higher 4th gear
My plan is to leave it as is until I have enough money to rebuild/re-gear the 091 transmission that I got a good deal on. I'm going to target the engine vs. vehicle speed of a stock suby, so set it up for about 2650 rpm at 65 mph.
Joel wrote:
Bucknasty wrote:I think re-gearing the transmission to lower the rpms at highway speeds are going to help get the temps down too, 4500 rpm is pretty high for a cruising speed.
You'll notice a improvement in fuel economy and a big drop in oil temps.
Sustained revs that high is what really brings oil temps up with no oil cooler.
I noticed in my bug before I had my trans re-geared and ran undersized back tyres when cruising at 70mph @3700rpm my oil temp crept right up to 110c (230f) but now with my trans regeared and bigger back tyres when I cruise at 70mph its only turning 3200 and the oil temp stays at 95c (203f)
Amazing the difference 500rpm made.
Good info Joel, imagine how much of a drop in temps a 2000 rpm reduction will give me! Improved fuel economy, lower oil and coolant temps, less noise, and FOUR useful gears! Whoooooo! (I only use 2nd thru 4th on my stock 3 rib 002 trans).
Sunnyjim ·
Bucknasty and Joel
whats the way with fuel filters?
do you use a clear plastic one to protect fuel pump as well as the EFI one after the fuel pump?
I was wondering if this contributes to the noise i have ?
vlad01 ·
Sunnyjim wrote:Bucknasty and Joel
whats the way with fuel filters?
do you use a clear plastic one to protect fuel pump as well as the EFI one after the fuel pump?
I was wondering if this contributes to the noise i have ?
could be, you need a massive low restriction filter before the pump. a standard filter wont cut it and will cause cavitation= noise.
all modern efi pumps have a screen type large sock and the lot is submerged in fuel.
you would want i'd say at least 12mm ID hose and filter fittings whilst the filter micron be a lot more than the after pump standard EFI filter.
I've read in a lot of places the recommendation is 10 micron after pump,
Thanks for the info. I bought a vss of Richard at rjes uk and
I happened to mention the issue and he said i should not be using the plastic filter after the tank. He reckons that could be the cause of the cavitation. I should use something bigger like
100 micron Or mesh
Today I could not get it started at all. Strange since I fixed all the codes it was gradually running worse . Now it won't start today.
I guess I go back to basics check I got spark fuel etc.
I wonder if I now have a fuel blockage due to those plastic filters.
vlad01 ·
lol, can't win can ya.
yeah check those filters. with todays "quality" fuels it wouldn't surprise me if they are blocked already.
Sunnyjim ·
My first plan of attack will be to get rid of the 2 plastic carby filters. I have order a 100 micron filter to go before the pump.
I will be stoked if it as simple as this to fix
chellejohno ·
Hey Paul,
I must apologise, regarding the noisy fuel pump. I said mine was pretty quiet, but now the engines muffled it definately does stand out, the only saving grace is when you get out on the highway you can't hear it over the rattles and wind noise! But it's bloody annoying when you pull up at the lights.
Cheers Johno
vlad01 ·
On the fuel pump noise, I recently did a EFI conversion on a customers Torana. He i using a copy 044.
We looking at running a genuine 070? VL turbo pump now.
Stupid china 044 is so rattley and dies in the ass as soon as the voltage drops during starting POS.
So noisy I don't know how anyone could put up with that racket. Genuine 044 supposedly are louder 🤪
Not sure why anyone would want to run 044 unless they are making 600hp
Sunnyjim ·
I took an annual leave day today, really wanted to get the engine going
I did it ! Not 100% sure what the exact reason was , I let you judge.
I guess I state the obvious but this project is really frustrating .I seem to take a one step forward , then 2 backwards, a few sideways then go forward again. Then I look in the mirror slap and remind myself I am not a mechanic and did ask for this challenge, So that is what I am getting. I am learning a lot.
So after lots of advice , I suspected the fuel could not get through to the loud 044 original Bosch pump because I had used 2 plastic carby type filters in series.
I found a good toowoomba ebay site that seems to know what they were talking about . They also said I should not use those plastic clear paper filters . Two in series is worse. I got this 30 micron EFI filter to use before the pump. It can be reused and cleaned out .
This is the first filter , really catching some debri. I have previously cleaned this tank out.
So I put the pre filter in , but still could not get the EJ22 started . Then I thought well perhaps I have fried that 044 pump because it has been really screeching for a few months now.
Next step I replaced the 044 with the 070copy pump that I bought 2 years ago. I originally changed this because at 30kmh or more it seemed to to struggle but now perhaps in hindsight it was not the pump , it was the combination of things .
Nope still cannot get that buggEJJ22err started.
what about spark?
the plugs are new when I started this conversion but were really oiled up bad. I think I have put too much oil in. So I cleaned them out and guess what? she starts!
Starts nicely but I am back to the start . I just cannot get it to sit at 750 and it wanders a bit , this sounds like a vaccuum leak.
But then I notice when it gets hot and the fans come on the speed gets bumped up, the idle is more like 1000rpm. Same as before - high idle
Ok thats it for today, I will still claim a mild victory
As usual comments advice are welcome
Sunnyjim ·
Johhno
good news so far with this 070 pump - no noise - it is real quiet. I cannot almost hear the start up prime
Kombi still on stands , not tested on highway just yet.
Sunnyjim ·
hi all
I need to start thinking of proper exhaust system for Sunnyjlm EJ22 conversion
I presume the headers come down go to a cat then do a 180° and the exhaust hangs off the back like a normal kombi
I was thinking of just taking it to the local Midas
any suggestions?
I have a temp setup . I have used the stock liberty headers and a scrap exhaust
But of course it runs straight up underneath and finishes near the steering rods!
It seems the easiest and cheapest would be to put in a 90° turn and the tailpipe could exit In front of the rear right wheel
l have seen this before but of Course the most Common approach if for the muffler right at the back
pros and cons of both approaches?
chellejohno ·
Sunnyjim wrote:hi all
I need to start thinking of proper exhaust system for Sunnyjlm EJ22 conversion
I presume the headers come down go to a cat then do a 180° and the exhaust hangs off the back like a normal kombi
I was thinking of just taking it to the local Midas
any suggestions?
I have a temp setup . I have used the stock liberty headers and a scrap exhaust
But of course it runs straight up underneath and finishes near the steering rods
It seems the easiest and cheapest would be to put in a 90° turn and the tailpipe could exit In front of the rear right wheel
l have seen this before but of Course the most Common approach if for the muffler right at the back
pros and cons of both approaches?
Hey Paul,
Yep, I took the easy way out, used the standard headers, cut the exhaust just past the converter, put a muffler on and headed it out in front of the rear wheel.
My main reason was to keep heat out of the engine bay, as karmann141 said.
Plus it made it really easy.
Sunnyjim ·
Johnno
Thanks mate.
Can you show a few more pics?
How you hung it? Did you use some rubber on a bracket ?
Did you use any particular muffler? I want it quiet.
Assume you still have a cat converter.
Joel ·
Hi Paul, the beauty of the EJ heads is the symmetrical exhaust ports means you can flip the header around and face it the other way.
With mine I swapped the stock gen1 Liberty header for an EJ20 Impreza header as they are more compact and no cat mounted to them.
Me mate Balders used the same one in his low light bus, his is facing forward with a muffler looping around the left of the engine like my bug but you can also face the Y to the back of the car and mount a muffler to the end so it looks like a VW quiet pack.
Sunnyjim ·
Hey joel
thanks for that lil tip, it might come in useful
another idea, do u know if ej25 headers will fit on a ej22? or are they different dimensions?
Joel ·
Yep they all use the same mounting flange but it depends what year EJ25.
Most use the same header as the EJ20 but the later ones after about 06 use this equal length one so nice and quiet and lose that Subi rumble but may get in the way of extended sumps.
vlad01 ·
suby have some really weird exhaust designs.
I'd bet they gain quite a considerable amount with custom headers.
Sunnyjim ·
Ok
I have a ej25 in 76 kombi and was thinking of putting that exhaust on the 71 kombi ej22
chellejohno ·
Hey Paul,
Here's a few pics, my exhaust was the same as the one in Joel's pic with the cat converter, we just left the converter in place and cut off just after it.
Cheers Johno
Sunnyjim ·
thanks Johnno
Looks good
I will take these photos to Midas and show them
would you change anything at all ?
chellejohno ·
Sunnyjim wrote:thanks Johnno
Looks good
I will take these photos to Midas and show them
would you change anything at all ?
Regarding the exhaust, no I don't think so, it's tucked up pretty well and it's nice and quiet. The only thing I don't know is whether it's legal to have it exiting there, think it's ok because it's behind the door opening.
Sunnyjim ·
johhno
thx mate
midas here we come
Sunnyjim ·
Hi all
this thread had been about my sons ej22 lowlight but I got a bit of work done on ej22 76 bus.
I got a low km Japan import motor put in. nice quiet no smoke and no head gasket issues.
However temps are spiking up to 120. I have heard so many times subies are notorious for air locks. This i really believe now .
I am pretty sure the issue is the rubber hoses in the heater circuit. Sometimes I feel them and they are cold but the upper rad hose is quite warm. I tried to bleed the heater circuit then find it takes a while to get flow.
I found a few things. The stat looked old cruddy and rubber tangled so i replaced that. Then i realized the heater circuit had an on off tap .this is a big no no.so i took that out.
then i found out there is no fill point to the heater circuit. So i put one in.
As I have lpg the Po has put a another pair of rubber hoses to the lpg manifold in parallel with the heater circuit.
I am wondering if it is better to make one big series loop. I have an idea with parallel circuits the air lock can hide.
The PO also had an expansion tank from a Daewoo but when it reached pressure it didn't spit to a recovery tank it just spills to the ground via the plastic radiator cap.
I have now put in a aluminum expansion tank with a 1.3 bar cap. This will now spit to a plastic washer bottle
As I have to rework all this ,How many fill points should I have. ? Or just one to the heater circuit?
Good advice welcome
chellejohno ·
Hey Paul,
Good to see your still alive! It's been a while.
As you know I'm no expert, but am wondering if your expansion tank filler is at the highest point in the system?
As for the LPG circuit, my thoughts would be, the less complicated the better, so thru the LPG and heater in the one circuit.
Cheers Johno
Sunnyjim ·
Johnno
slowly plodding along. I really need a week or 2 so I can get stuck in.
If I remember your conversion you didn't suffer from air locks.
Can you describe to me your cooling set up?
How many fill points do you have?
Sunnyjim ·
Well today was a good day.
The cooling worked well. Didn't go much past 85.I didn't have to rearrange the cooling plumbing as i was thinking. It looks as though i have finally got the air out.
So far the moral of the story is just when you think you have got the air out let it cool down and bring it up to temp again a few times. Do this cycle over and over. the air eventually comes out.
I now have a sealed system. The rad cap will spit into the overflow bottle then i have noticed it draws it back in when cooling down
lolight70 ·
Hi
Had a good look thru your post,very informative,i have a low light as well and thinking of going ej22 as well.
One question i have re idling high,are u using a jdm or adm ecu?
What about the harness?
Did they all come from the same donor car?
Is your ecu from an ej22?
Japan had an ej20 quad cam from the same era that we never got,im sure the ecus look the same and have the same 4 plug set up
There are quite a few differences between similar models from oz and Japan,
Mismatching can lead to issues that are a pita to solve.
Hope you solve your issues soon.
Chris
Sunnyjim ·
Hi Chris
I am using a stock subie ecu. I sent my harness up to am auto noosa For a few hundred dollars they stripped it and labelled it so it is easy for me to install. It is also important to wire in a engine check light therefore bedding able to interpret codes.
re the engine mount I found a subie cross member and used that.
I think it best to get all bits from the one donor that eliminates potential problems.
Good luck in 2015 with your project.
Sunnyjim ·
Hi All
It has been a while since I had time to work on sunnyjim but I got stuck into the other day .
Quick summary of where I was
Engine in , wired ok , got some codes finally sorted. New knock sensor. I almost had the cooling done with twin rads in the engine bay but and I noticed I had a slight leak in on one of the rads.
So I have prepared and bought new bigger ones with bigger fans.
I noticed this sludge at hose connections on the old rads
Does anyone now what it and what causes it?quite thick in some areas.
I have been using the green supercheap coolant
Joel ·
Gday Paul,
I'm wondering if the original Subaru donor had some sort of radiator stop leak put through it and that's just the remnants from the coolant galleries.
chellejohno ·
Geez Paul, that's scary! Give it a good flush out and have another go, I agree with Joel, it must be something that was already in the block.....I hope
Sunnyjim ·
Joel and Johhno
Thanks for the replies. suggestion that the PO put some stop leak could make sense as i don't know the engine history.
i want to flush the engine before installing the new radiators.
The easiest way seems to me to run the garden hose in and out of the engine avoiding the new radiators. as i would only do this for a few minutes do you think this is OK?
anyway new bigger rads installed today . Not plumbed yet.
chellejohno ·
Hey Paul,
They look the same as my radiators, are the the honda ones?
The only thing I've done different is with the rad on the drivers side, mines the other way round.
Sunnyjim ·
johnno
yes Honda civic
here is the other side
vlad01 ·
I put that down to mixed coolant brands/type. Even happens when not flushing the old stuff out properly before adding new stuff thats different to what was there before.
Sunnyjim ·
vlad
that is good to know about mixing brands.
i had a second look at the green stuff i am using at i now see it clearly says "not for alloy engines after 1984 "
as my ej22 is 1994 i guess i need to switch coolant
Sunnyjim ·
vlad
that is good to know about mixing brands.
i had a second look at the green stuff i am using at i now see it clearly says "not for alloy engines after 1984 "
as my ej22 is 1994 i guess i need to switch coolant
vlad01 ·
I wouldn't touch any supercheap crap. I would recommend flushing the whole system with clean water with stat removed, do it few times.
refill with water and add coolant system flushing additive, run for 100k or so. dump it and flush few times again as above, then flush with distilled water once.
Add a good coolant such as nulon, tectalloy or penrite of the correct type at the correct concentrations for the engine and mix with distilled water only.
check for stray current with system full of distilled water before filling with coolant is a wise idea.
hope that is of help.
Sunnyjim ·
vlad
i will try some nulon or penrite.
How is the best way to flush the engine?
i have 2 new radiators that i want to avoid getting the old sludge through . i was thinking of hosing the inlet and outlet of the engine block?
What would you advise?
vlad01 ·
take the thermostat out and use a garden hose to flush it. run it through what ever end is convenient until it runs clear, good to go the other way as often crap comes out better if you flush alternatively from end to end.
to flush with distilled water, put the system together fill, run and then drop the lowest hose and let it run out, obviously not with the engine running.
The distilled water is the last stage before the final fill of coolant. I would fill it with normal water and the flushing additive and run the engine around for a bit ( what ever it says on the bottle, 100km?), use the new radiators so you dont get crap going in to the engine.
Sunnyjim ·
Vlad
Ok flushing sounds easy enough.
Today i got the new radiators plumbed in. I have an aeropro inline radiator cap as a fill point, it is at the highest point .
Now i read it is important to allow the heater circuit to vent air bubbles.
But what exactly is the best way to do this? What is the ideal way to plumb ? I have seen some diagrams on a USA Vanagon site shows the expansion tank is in series with the heater Circuit. this means that all heater circuit Coolant goes in and out if the expansion tank. I have also read Someone else just tapped one line (not 2 ) from the expansion tank down into the healer circuit
2 different approaches but I t think both allow the possibility of air bubbles escaping from the heater circuit upwards and out.
.
Joel ·
Gday Paul,
If you're filler cap is in one of the main lines and is high enough then there is no need to have a bleeder on the heater circuit as well.
I just run a simple hose loop on mine as my header tank on the top hose is the highest point and bleeds any air out
I wouldnt run Supercheap coolant either.
I've run Tectaloy in mine since day 1, both the second EJ22 which was in for over 40,000kms and the current EJ25 are still perfect inside from running on it.
Whne I had the gearbox out last year I flushed the whole system and was really happy with how clean it was.
Sunnyjim ·
hi Joel
Thanks for shedding some light. i will do as you say and just put a simple short loop on the heater circuit.
Sunnyjim ·
this ej22 conversion has sat for a while, and i now i cant get the engine started.
I took all the plugs out cleaned them and put 'them back in. I can see spark at 1 one them ( didnt check all 4 of them)
It appears that I have fuel pressure. I hear the normal fuel pump whirring sound at start up. I also used the green test connectors , it cycled power to the igition and fuel pump relays, it cycled the fans on and I could also feel the pressure surge in the fuel lines.
can some one offer some advice as a next step?
Joel ·
Even though the fuel pump is running the injectors may not be firing.
Usually you can hear them clicking but you could use a test light on the wires, from memory there is a 12volts at them and the ECU sends a ground pulse
Sunnyjim ·
Hi Joel
thanks for the reply
I will do as u suggest look at the injectors.
I don't have a noid light. Is there anything special about the noid light? I guess I could just wire up a 12 volt LED to check it?
Also I couldn't interpret the CEL. with the black read connector connected I see just a regular flashing with no pause. So this does not seem to be any of the codes from 11 to 52.
Joel ·
A steady flash is the all is ok signal, there's no codes stored in the memory
Sunnyjim ·
joel
thanks for that confirmation. I must have missed that in my haynes
paul
Sunnyjim ·
Joel and all
It has me stumped.
I made up a test light and checked each injector harness . all 4 flashed meaning the ECU was supplying the correct grounding signal. Of course that doesnt prove the injector itself but unlikley all 4 are buggered. still when I get a helper can I check by feeling each one click?
I also removed the fuel supply hose from the inlet and put it into a coke bottle . After cranking a bit I soon have 250ml of fuel, so fuel looks to be flowing. That doesnt mean the fuel is not crap'but I think it is more likely it will run rough rather than not start at all?( happy to be corrected on this ) I also sprayed some start ya bastard down the manifold - no kick
as I have a working ej25 in a 76 bus I was abel to swap a few parts , swapped the ign and fuel pump relays. swapped the igniter , they all tested ok
mmm. where to from here? me thinks a big whisky might help🙁
Joel ·
It's sending the ground signals but did you make sure there was a constant positive on the other wire with the igntiion on?
Sunnyjim ·
Joel
good suggestion, I didnt check that, today I will do so.
Also just realised I do not have a big earth strap on the motor. I moved the battery out of the engine bay. I have the battery earthed to the body but not to the motor. that is something i can easily remedy. what about the ecu itself? the case looks earthed as it is mounted to the kombi body. would i need to run a special earth back to the battery?
appreciate your comments on the below points regards to the old method of spark fuel and air
SPARK- all i have proved so far is that i can see spark on one cylinder out of the combustion chamber . is it possible and likely the spark is too weak inside the combustion chamber? ( have cleaned all 4 spark plugs) I am not getting any kick at all. could all this be explained by a coil pack? I will check the coil impedance anyway.
FUEL- I have proven there is fuel going into the fuel rail',could the pressure regulator be doing anything?
AIR - I can see the throttle body flap is opening nicely.
what about sensors? Because I can''t get it to run I have no codes but can any sensor stop the start? I have already replaced coolant temp and knock sensors and was happy that I now had a running engine without any codes.
Sunnyjim ·
I wont jump to conclusions but found this from the mercedes diesleguy and he had the same symptoms as me. he had spark and fuel , it would crankbut nto start.his timing belt jumped a tooth or so.
I replaced the belt and waterpump a while back and it was all ok after that
I guess I can take off the timing covers and have a look
Joel ·
Definitely check that the injectors have power with igntion on, it only takes a bad connection or an iffy igntion relay to stop that.
You have fuel pressure there and atleast some spark so if the injectors were firing you would have atleast some sign of life when cranking.
The ECU case isnt grounded, theres a couple of ground wires to it in the the plugs, if the ground was bad though you would have nothing at all.
Sunnyjim ·
I tested the wiring harness to the injector and it has ign power to it
I also put a test light across each one and when I crank the donk each injector test light flashes ok.
Just thinking about sensors, if I had a problem I would think I would have a code but I guess I only get codes from a running engine ?. is it technically possible the last time the engine was running I could have had a sensor failure but leaving it for a few weeks without power the code has erased?
Can any sensor make it impossible to start? I have read threads on coolant, crank and cam sensor issues but it usually is regards to a hot or cold start not a no-start.
I also cleaned the airflow sensor yesterday, no difference.
Although I already proved I have spark , I also tested the resistance of the coil. All within specs.
Sunnyjim ·
The timing belt looks ok. it all still looks lined up although i can't see to count tne teeth
Joel ·
Might be worth trying the crank and cam sensors.
A dodgy crank sensor can cause starting issues.
Sunnyjim ·
joel
yes agreed i can't think of much else
Sunnyjim ·
got the bugger started- I think it was just badly flooded and new plugs needed.
I remembered why I started this project, I wanted to learn about EFI engines. I am Happy to say I keep learning.
Even though a few days ago i took the very new plugs out , I noticed they were very wet with fuel. I cleaned them and put them back in. Still it wouldn't start.
Then Pete at CVD suggested calling Russell at Subi-evolution who knows a real lot about subi engines. Russell suggested remove the plugs , let the engine breathe open air overnight , crank without fuel pump fuse in. then put new plugs in,turn fuel pump back on and start
hey presto , bobs yer uncle she goes again.
I know I have limited knowledge on EFI engines but I always somehow never thought modern engines flooded. I thought that only happened with carby engines
Joel, much appreciated all your help.
karmann141 ·
Hey Paul,
Great to hear you got it started - I am (and sure a few others) are learning new things through your trials and tribulations.
Keep on soldiering on.🙂
Sunnyjim ·
Nolan
I am happy of someone else can learn from my mistakes as as i bumble my way along.
Hey how is the KG project going?
karmann141 ·
At a bit of a stand still, always something getting in the way and business has taken a bit of a priority at the moment.🥲
Joel ·
Glad to hear you got it sorted Paul
Sunnyjim ·
good feeling to report good news. I think I can see the finish line now. The 71 bus with ej22 is now driving around the block a bit . I am pleased to announce the radiators in parallel seem to work well.
temps not over 90 yet ( but I assume the VDO gauge is a little inaccurate . The important thing is once the fans kick in I can see the temp drop
I also wired in a LED light on the dash that tells me when the fans kick in and out. Also another dash LED for the Check engine light. Pleased to say I am driving around with no codes. My el cheapo tacho says I have a nice low idle around 800rpm
All I have to do now is book it in to get exhaust put on it. I have jigged up a temporary one to keep the neighbours happy.
really appreciate all the help I received here, thanks everyone
hatch cut and carpeted
nbturbo ·
In the last pic-where is the blue radiator hose going? It looks like it's the bottom tank outlet.
Sunnyjim ·
gday mate
sorry it's been a while since i have been on here.
i did things a little different. The radiators are set up in parallel not series . My theory was out of the motor dumped into 2 radiators instead of one. seems to cool well.