Beam rebuild- Urethane or needle rollers?

There has been a fair bit of discussion lately about the use of Urethane bushes in front beams.
As I have recently scored a few Ball Joint beams for reconditioning I thought a thread on this topic was in order.
There is quite a few who wish they had never gone away from needle rollers and others who claim they are fine if installed correctly.
What are your thoughts?

Nolathane is okay in it's place IMHO.
But it is not always the answer for every application.
And is often installed incorrectly, adding to the grief.

I guess, if I was starting with a newly fabricated beam then I would be using nolathane.
I would assume that most of them are manufactured to suit.

Does the Nolathane bush replace both the inner and outer needle roller bearing too?
Or do you need the inner bush as well?
If you eliminate the inner bush then the grease is going to fill the whole beam before lubricating the outer bush.
That's a heck of a lot of grease, folks.
It's gonna make a mess, surely!

I'm not 100% sure without checking My Manuals, but I would presume there are two sets of needle roller bearings for each suspension arm..
and they do Hold some grease too.. I just filled one up when replacing a front end..
so, that would mean one roller and one nolathane Urethane bush on each side...??
Needle roller bearings are an excellent bearing that can withstand all the ups & downs in a front end for over 40 years.

they do need the grease as recommended by VW though
Lithium based MOLY Grease..
Urethane bushes are NOT that hard and are more flexible than needle rollers which have no flexibility at all.

so, You have one soft urethane bush and one very hard needle roller bearing.. ??

I don't know if the grease can get past the urethane bush??
and urethane doesn't twist... [like rubber]
so, no grease until they start wearing put ???

I don't like them and I haven't evened opened the packet yet... 😂😂😂

My thoughts

LEE

Maybe You replace Both needle rollers...?? still BAD..

I am no expert however I know the inner bearing is not a needle, it is called Micarta. It is really a bush. You can leave the Micarta bearings in and just have urethane to replace the rollers or you can get a urethane bearing that is a long tube which replaces both the needles and the Micarta.
I have just been advised to use needle roller bearings rather than urethane by an experienced VW shop when I get Avis adjusters welded in to a stock beam. There is another post on here where it was explained that the urethane need to be reamed to work correctly. If you were building a new beam, by far the easiest method would be the long urethane which also use a different type of grease as well as far as I am aware.
It will be interesting to hear from urethane users though because urethane does make a very good bearing/bush according to a suspension specialist I deal with for my 4by
Cheers.Wayne

The needle bearing have less resistance than the urathane and will move more freely under load resaulting in a better ride, i replaced the inner and outer bearings on my early beetle front end with some silicon aluminium bronze bushes the i machined up to suit, these also worked with the car still riding well, i would not use the urathane as it does not have the characteristic's of the bearing you are replacing and will always have more stiction.

If longevity is the key, then take it from Frog my baja, yesterday discovered that teh shimmy in teh front end was from dead Urethane front torsion bar bush (empi brand). It just got that distorted that it allows movement of the torsion arm in the beam and thus doesn't hold the torsion arm firm. Scary when i jacked up the wheel and found out. (was the lower passenger side bush). It was properly and regularly greased too.

The bloody bushes only saw 12 months of the road, and hadn't even had a hardcore offroad trip yet. I'm going back to needle bearings. I'm sick of repeating work due to crap aftermarket parts, particularly if the needle bearings can last 40 years, compared to the 12 months out of the urethane.

hulbyw wrote:I am no expert however I know the inner bearing is not a needle, it is called Micarta. It is really a bush. You can leave the Micarta bearings in and just have urethane to replace the rollers or you can get a urethane bearing that is a long tube which replaces both the needles and the Micarta.
I have just been advised to use needle roller bearings rather than urethane by an experienced VW shop when I get Avis adjusters welded in to a stock beam. There is another post on here where it was explained that the urethane need to be reamed to work correctly. If you were building a new beam, by far the easiest method would be the long urethane which also use a different type of grease as well as far as I am aware.
It will be interesting to hear from urethane users though because urethane does make a very good bearing/bush according to a suspension specialist I deal with for my 4by
Cheers.Wayne

Hi Wayne
OK on the inner bushes instead of needle rollers

I know the 4WD people sell heaps of Nolathane bushes for 4WDs as its tougher than rubber
BUT
it doesn't flex as rubber does.. so cannot do the SAME job..
it has to move.. and movement causes wear...

I've heard of problems on rear IRS axle bushes using Nolathane as it cannot twist like the rubber ones..
so, it turns back and forth..

like if You used metal etc bushes in their place... same thing
they would wear the rear suspension away.. lol

LEE

Nolathane is a rubber like looking red bush [usually] but hard and I believe too hard to twist.. so there goes its usefulness..
as far as I can see.. so, it has to wear out... IMHO

Lee

Lee, that's my point. It makes a very good bearing because it doesn't flex much, but if you need some compliance like in a shocker bushing, it creates a lot of harshness. Some people with 4by's reckon that is good, but not me.
Used in a beam, it is not supposed to be compliant, so it works ok, but will, like any bearing, require lube

📝Yes I agree especially the lubrication
otherwise it cannot work

Lee

sent from My Samsung Galaxy

I'm running delrin bushes. Just too add more. " what ifs" to this discussion 😀

and you're right, micata is more of a bush, looks, feels and works like bakerlite. not sure if you can even buy it anymore? I like needles, except if the rolling surfaces of your arms are worn, in with case reaming bushes to suit the current size of those surfaces may bring a better result. even if they do need replacing more often.

I really like the full bronze bushes idea, becuase delrin is brittle, very little resistance though. i swear i have broken one already 🙁

YIKES
haven't heard of Delrin for many years..
and have never heard of the inner VW bush material
but know what bakelite was and looked like..

[bakelite was used as the rubbing block on points years ago]

[nolathane]
and if its not rubber like the originals it needs lubrication

cheers

LEE

I don't know why so many people seem to think that they know better than the VW engineers who spent years designing it in the first place. If the standard beam setup works, why change it?

100% correct, the urathane might seem a easy option but is not the correct choice of material for the job it needs to do.

i have always used delrin (trade name acetal ) for all the beams i have done and i think it is the best for this application
you can finish the id/od to size and press it in to give you about .i5mm clearance on the arm
the only critical thing is to have a seal on the outside to stop shit getting in and use a good grease(moly or a teflon based)
leave the micata bush if it is ok, if not put a delrin bush in
acetal is an engineering plastic designed for making bushes although there is some others but they are quite expensive

No urethane for me.
100% needle rollers and fabbed internal if necessary.

Thanks, Matt.
What you say is where i am heading.
I'll put some pic's up shortly.

waveman1500 wrote:I don't know why so many people seem to think that they know better than the VW engineers who spent years designing it in the first place. If the standard beam setup works, why change it?

Those nice RED colored Nolathane bushes in the clear packets look so good...

and they weren't designed over 40- 50+ years ago....

so these NEW HEAVY DUTY bushes MUST be the best....
😂 😂

Well not for this little black duck...😂😂😂

LEE

Here is a picture of a beam with the outer nedle rollers removed.
No surprises there.

1/ Same beam cut behind the inner bushes with the metal bush removed.
2/ Note the plastic bush that mounts the metal bush still in place inside the beam.
3/ The inner metal bush.

thanks for the pics

Lee

bajachris88 wrote:If longevity is the key, then take it from Frog my baja, yesterday discovered that teh shimmy in teh front end was from dead Urethane front torsion bar bush (empi brand). It just got that distorted that it allows movement of the torsion arm in the beam and thus doesn't hold the torsion arm firm. Scary when i jacked up the wheel and found out. (was the lower passenger side bush). It was properly and regularly greased too.

The bloody bushes only saw 12 months of the road, and hadn't even had a hardcore offroad trip yet. I'm going back to needle bearings. I'm sick of repeating work due to crap aftermarket parts, particularly if the needle bearings can last 40 years, compared to the 12 months out of the urethane.

I quite agree, Chris.
I see a few issues, here

Firstly, I see the word "EMPI" and I cringe. It doesn't always mean cr@p, but too often it does.
Surely there are differences in quality, such as size, material composition etc.

How long were the nolathane bushes?
I am starting to believe that no matter what you use for the outer bearing, an inner bush is necessary for two reasons.
1/ Support the end of the trailing arm to stop movement.
2/ stop the grease dissappearing into the beam and forcing it to properly lubricate the bushes. Also, it holds the grease in place to offer continuing lubrication in service.

In the next pic you can see a trailing arm with the bushes in their approximate location

This is a pic of two worn trailing arms.
The one on the left has flat spots from the needle rollers (not that common).
The one on the right has wear from the inner bush (common occurrence).

Neither would be reusable with OEM bearings.
Nolathane would be able to be used here as it supports over a larger area.
The wear spots wil actually help lubrication by trapping grease.

nils wrote:and you're right, micata is more of a bush, looks, feels and works like bakerlite.

Is this the brown plastic bush that mounts the bush as I referred to previously?
I tried to drift one out but the impact point just powdered.
This puppy 'aint goin' nowhere!

This will have to be removed if a Duralin bush is to replace it.
I guess if you whack it in with a drift the three dimples stopping it sliding in too far will cause it to fall to bits real quick.

Pic 1 is the slipper bush that I removed from the plastic bush seen in the beam in pic 2.
The slipper bush itself looks like a spring steel slipper with sintered bronze inner which is then coated with a very thin layer of white bearing metal.

Checking the bushes of a rebuilder beam.

The trailing arm is lightly greased and installed in the beam without the springpack.
Make sure the arm is in roughly the position when driving - this is where the wear occurs.
Hold the trailing arm where the grease seal sits and move the balljoint back and forth.
I am using the edge of the table for reference to the shock mount bolt.
No movement felt = good.

Slight movement (less than say 0.5 mm) = potential problem. Try to differentiate between inner and outer movement.

If the needle roller and load surface on the trailing arm look ok then they probably are.
The movement is most likely the inner bush
Probably not worth pursuing. Grease it up and drive it!

Too much movement (2 mm or more) = repair time.
If the inner trailing arm load surface is torn up, then the slipper bush will probably be in the same condition.

I believe that these bushes are torn up when a previous owner has driven a long time without lubrication.
Correctly lubricated. the OEM system will last almost indefinitely.

The beam above measured up as;

LH upper and LH lower trailing arms, no movement detected.

RH lower trailing arm showed about 1.5 - 2 mm.
More than I would like but if it was the only problem i would probably live with it. Especially as it is on the right.

RH upper arm showed 3 to 4 mm movement.
No good in anyones eyes, I am sure.

So I am looking to remove both RH needle rollers ( and reuse them if possible) and make two Delrin (or similar) replacement inner bushes.
The lower arm will be okay to reuse but the upper arm is shot. That's the one pictured here (and earlier).

Lucky Phil wrote:I quite agree, Chris.
I see a few issues, here

Firstly, I see the word "EMPI" and I cringe. It doesn't always mean cr@p, but too often it does.
Surely there are differences in quality, such as size, material composition etc.

How long were the nolathane bushes?
I am starting to believe that no matter what you use for the outer bearing, an inner bush is necessary for two reasons.
1/ Support the end of the trailing arm to stop movement.
2/ stop the grease disappearing into the beam and forcing it to properly lubricate the bushes. Also, it holds the grease in place to offer continuing lubrication in service.

In the next pic you can see a trailing arm with the bushes in their approximate location

YES

You do need two bushes or a needle bearing and a bush etc
suspension arms are too long to just have one needle roller bearing unless it was about 100mms or longer...

and good info on NOT trying to take out the inner Bakelite type of bush..
How does the grease get past the inner bush??

I know it does as fresh grease always comes out past the new grease seals.. [did on the old ones too]



EMPI was a great VW parts accessory company in the 50s? and 60s... original EMPI parts are sought after..

not so the chinese/Taiwan/Indian made EMPI parts which I believe are getting better... so, someone is finally checking their quality and fit..

I grease My front end [up in the air] monthly..

LEE

Lucky Phil wrote:The beam above measured up as;

LH upper and LH lower trailing arms, no movement detected.

RH lower trailing arm showed about 1.5 - 2 mm.
More than I would like but if it was the only problem i would probably live with it. Especially as it is on the right.

RH upper arm showed 3 to 4 mm movement.
No good in anyones eyes, I am sure.

So I am looking to remove both RH needle rollers ( and reuse them if possible) and make two Delrin (or similar) replacement inner bushes.
The lower arm will be okay to reuse but the upper arm is shot. That's the one pictured here (and earlier).

You can see the badly scored upper arm has had moisture there by the look of the water marks...
so no greasing on a regular schedule there.

and I agree. these parts do last forever is greased with lithium based MOLY Grease..

but NO lubrication is bad..

LEE

GOOD PICS TOO

Thanks Lucky Phil for all the great photos and information. I now understand a lot better how my Bug beam all fits together and what to look for when I pull the beam apart to get Avis adjusters welded in
Cheers....Wayne

You are welcome Wayne. Stay tuned - there should be plenty of good stuff to follow.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to come into a bent beam to slice up.
I don't think I could have ruined a good beam just for a look inside.

Here's a pic of the needle rollers out.
They took a bit of a dent on the inside from the slide hammer, but they are okay to use again.

Great pics and info for everyone. Some points to note is that while all ball-joint beams are like this (and type 3 although they are different sizes), king-link early beams have no needle rollers at all, just the plastic/bakelite material for inner and outer bearings, although the outer can be replaced with the needle bearing as the OD's are the same, and then the later king-link '62(?)-'67 was needle outer.
It's also important to note the way the factory tooling worked. The inner bushes are small on the ID, this is because the inside of the beam is not true dimensionally, that is, it's not a machined accurate bore, so the bushes get pressed in and then reamed to size so the hole is accurate. The reamer uses the internal torsion bar location in the centre of the beam and the needle roller location at the outside of the beam as guides to ream the bushes true to the beam.

Thanks, Matt.
Getting some great info today.

Whille cleaning up to check the inner bushes the old slipper bearing was hooked out of the top beam tube.
This casts a doubt over the condition of the plastic bush as the trailing arm has been running on it.

The lower bush was drifted out with the usual resistance. I think the plastic bush is okay.

The bushes were, however lined with a bronze/vinyl bush rather than the sintered bronze style removed from the donor beam.
Probably eliminated the need for reaming, saving costs. It's a shame, really.
These vinyl bushes I wouldnt expect to last indefinitely!

I am going to try fitting these secondhand ones in the first pic.

In the second pic the old bushes. Upper bush was spat out to rattle around on the spring pack.
Lower bush shows the vinyl peeling off the slipper.

When i did my silicon aluminium bronze bushes in my early front end i machined the OD with about .1MM clearence, with about .05MM on the ID, i then machined a manderal and glued the bushes in place with loctite 680. this eliminated the need to ream the bushes, been in there for years, any wear in the inner bushes will be exagerated at the ball joint end and will cause all types of problems like wandering under brakes and tram linning.

Lucky Phil wrote:You are welcome Wayne. Stay tuned - there should be plenty of good stuff to follow.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to come into a bent beam to slice up.
I don't think I could have ruined a good beam just for a look inside.

Here's a pic of the needle rollers out.
They took a bit of a dent on the inside from the slide hammer, but they are okay to use again.

YIKES

I'm just glad that You had a bent beam to open UP and NOT a good one.. lol

Great PICS and info there...

OK on the reaming etc.. Very interesting..

also shows what happens when not greased all the time...

LEE

nils wrote:I really like the full bronze bushes idea, becuase delrin is brittle, very little resistance though. i swear i have broken one already 🙁

After looking at your avatar picture, no wonder!😂

I have come up with a few thoughts about replacing with a solid bush.

Firstly, the needle roller traps grease where a solid bush will not. A solid bush is going to require more frequent lubrication.

Secondly, The bush can be made out of almost any material, within reason, but application is going to be a factor. Cheaper and more brittle bush stock is okay for an occasional use vehicle, but aerobatics are going to need a different material!

Thirdly, lubrication. Notice how this topic keeps on popping up!
The bush stock (and this includes nolathane) will be compatible with only certain types of grease.
If you use a bush stock that needs a specific grease, then it's off to buy a new pot of grease as well as a new grease gun.
Then what happens when you sell the car or fit the beam to someone else's car who gets noddy down the street to service it? How damaging is the wrong grease?

Cheaper and easier to use dearer bush stock compatible with normal lithium grease, surely.

If you have some bush stock handy and it is for your car,then by all means use it if you wish.
For mine, compatibility with lithium GP grease along with durability and workability is the key factor.
If you want affordability, go get a Hyundai!

Hi

Beams are not my usual fair but one advantage you get by going away fro the conventional beam bearings is that the bearings in high mileage front ends can wear a narrow grove in the trailing arm making them unserviceable, a wider solid bush would overcome this.

Steve

Application of the vehicle sure comes into play I think.

For a road going vehicle I'd stick with the needle bearings but for going off-road I think the long urethane bushes would be the better choice as there is still a little give in the urethane for heavy impacts. The needles would just bruise the torsion arm and cause a flat spot.

However, DO NOT buy the EMPI gear. Since Mr Empi passed away the licence to produce many of his parts has gone overseas and the quality is terrible. Fit, finish and materials used are well below par.

I never by EMPI as it's so hard to know which parts are still made in the USA.

Anyhow, just my 2 pennies worth 🙂

Lucky Phil wrote:

nils wrote:I really like the full bronze bushes idea, becuase delrin is brittle, very little resistance though. i swear i have broken one already 🙁

Thirdly, lubrication. Notice how this topic keeps on popping up!
The bush stock (and this includes nolathane) will be compatible with only certain types of grease.

If you use a bush stock that needs a specific grease, then it's off to buy a new pot of grease as well as a new grease gun.
Then what happens when you sell the car or fit the beam to someone else's car who gets noddy down the street to service it? How damaging is the wrong grease?

Cheaper and easier to use dearer bush stock compatible with normal lithium grease, surely.

If you have some bush stock handy and it is for your car,then by all means use it if you wish.
For mine, compatibility with lithium GP grease along with durability and workability is the key factor.
If you want affordability, go get a Hyundai!

Hi
Needle rollers are VERY HARD... and it takes years to flat spot them... so they would need looking at when You get some play in the arms.. steering??
Long bushes with grease grooves may be OK but I would be greasing them every week..lol

the run of the Mill grease is soap or clay based green stuff...
which I only use on My tappet cover gaskets.. lol

I've always used lithium based Moly grease [since on My Dads beetle in 1964] Yes I was very Young back then... lol

Many people may opt for the cheaper green grease but if its green I won't use it on My cars... lol

cheers

LEE

Hi

Ive seen the needlle rollers dint the trailing arm after an impact.

Steve

1303Steve wrote:Hi

Ive seen the needlle rollers dint the trailing arm after an impact.

Steve

Cheers Steve 🙂

Yes, the needle roller bearings are that tough....

Good quality West German steel ..

all they need is a bit of lithium based MOLY grease to keep them lubricated

Lee

waveman1500 wrote:I don't know why so many people seem to think that they know better than the VW engineers who spent years designing it in the first place. If the standard beam setup works, why change it?

Exactly! poly bushes have their place but not on a torsion suspension system, if it aint broken why fix it? . Poly is good when used to replace bushes where the rotation is minimal and surface area is small. eg, lower control arm bush on Mc pherson strut, link bushes on A arm, or links on a live axle etc...

Also the quality of the bush is important. Noalthane are poo and fail almost straight away, there are brands like super pro and K mac that are many times the quality for a fraction more in price because the proper R &D was done to make these products work unlike some crap ass china parts that looks like it might work.

vlad01 wrote:

waveman1500 wrote:I don't know why so many people seem to think that they know better than the VW engineers who spent years designing it in the first place. If the standard beam setup works, why change it?

Exactly! poly bushes have their place but not on a torsion suspension system, if it aint broken why fix it? . Poly is good when used to replace bushes where the rotation is minimal and surface area is small. eg, lower control arm bush on Mc pherson strut, link bushes on A arm, or links on a live axle etc...

Also the quality of the bush is important. Noalthane are poo and fail almost straight away, there are brands like super pro and K mac that are many times the quality for a fraction more in price because the proper R &D was done to make these products work unlike some crap ass china parts that looks like it might work.

ah, where's the 'like' button when you need it 🙂

The only place you can use poly on a vw is the inner pivot points on the semi trailing arms as they meet the criteria for poly bushes, but there isn't any available (maybe CSP or US made bushes are good?) in a brand that I know and trust, only crap noalthane and the empi junk variety, which thankfully I never have touched those "manufactures" in any of the dubs I have over the years.

vwo60 wrote:When i did my silicon aluminium bronze bushes in my early front end i machined the OD with about .1MM clearence, with about .05MM on the ID, i then machined a manderal and glued the bushes in place with loctite 680. this eliminated the need to ream the bushes, been in there for years, any wear in the inner bushes will be exagerated at the ball joint end and will cause all types of problems like wandering under brakes and tram linning.

I like the idea of the bronze bushes, I may have to resort to this if I can't find good NOS inner bushes for mine, they are a rare unstable isotope of the element unobtainium.


2 years of searching, wanted ads blah. best I could find is 2 rusty pairs which may or may not be good enough.

Try sourcing good secondhand ones from old abandoned and especially bent beams.
The bush pictured here came out of a bent beam and is in good shape.
The car must have been crashed at low miles many moons ago.

Lucky Phil wrote:Try sourcing good secondhand ones from old abandoned and especially bent beams.
The bush pictured here came out of a bent beam and is in good shape.
The car must have been crashed at low miles many moons ago.

Good? I have a beam with bushes look new compared to that. Also was bent but no accident, engine fire and was put out of action in 79-80 and it was a 70 model with 22k? on the clock. the arm was bent from the crane that crushed the roof sideways when picked up and must of been dropped on its side bending the arm and beam, was evident from the way the needle rollers were damaged. Anyways the problem is getting them out without damaging the bushings.

Well the good news is I might have NOS bearing after all, just checked today again with a guy in Belgium and he recons he might have 0.1mm oversize OD NOS bushes. Just confirming the PN now.

I regularly check with a few of the privet suppliers of NOS stuff in Europe and I might be in luck today.

wish me luck!

When i did the front end i did both the inner and outer bushes.

^ yup, good ideal to do the lot and also replace the arms if necessary (check with micrometer)

vlad01 wrote:

Lucky Phil wrote:Try sourcing good secondhand ones from old abandoned and especially bent beams.
The bush pictured here came out of a bent beam and is in good shape.
The car must have been crashed at low miles many moons ago.

Good? I have a beam with bushes look new compared to that. Also was bent but no accident, engine fire and was put out of action in 79-80 and it was a 70 model with 22k? on the clock. the arm was bent from the crane that crushed the roof sideways when picked up and must of been dropped on its side bending the arm and beam, was evident from the way the needle rollers were damaged. Anyways the problem is getting them out without damaging the bushings.

Well the good news is I might have NOS bearing after all, just checked today again with a guy in Belgium and he recons he might have 0.1mm oversize OD NOS bushes. Just confirming the PN now.

I regularly check with a few of the privet suppliers of NOS stuff in Europe and I might be in luck today.

wish me luck!

Yeah, Good. Not perfect, but this one should get me out of trouble.
If you want better, just turn one up!
I made a slide hammer to remove this one no worries.
I will post pics of it later.
But if you have found NOS stuff, then even better!
BTW, i think I can lay my hands on a type 3 beam, complete I think. Let me know if interested.

So can I, I know where there are NOS beams but the shipping overseas would be expensive and I don't know which models they are for.❓

I have just been looking on CIP1 and I was surprised at what parts are still availiable.
Original Micarta bushes, slipper type metal bushes, needle rollers.
Even new beams with all bushes/bearings installed.
Didn't seem that dear,either.

SHIPPING is the killer..
can be more than the parts.. especially if heavy
over 500 grams...

I just looked at a new magnetic pertronix ring for My distributor
$17-95 and $39 postage..
and they don't weight much at all...

LEE

^ Too true.

I just googled Micarta.
Micarta is a trademark of Norplex-Micarta.
The process was developed by George Westinghouse of Westinghouse company fame around 1910.
It is a combination of a bonding agent (epoxy etc) and a fabric (cotton, linen etc.)
It has come to mean any process where a bonding agent and fabric combination is used.
There was a really interesting site where Denim/Epoxy knife handles were being made. Great stuff.

Delrin is the brand name Mr DuPont of Dupont Corp. fame gave to his version of the polymer Polyoxymethylene (!) in the late 1950's.
Also known as Acetal, Polyacetal and Polyformaldehyde, they are all referred to as acetal resins.
Their structure is self supporting, and is regarded as a superior product by the manufacturers,
probably due to lower manufacturing costs.
As for performance, who knows?

See if Heritage in the UK do the inner bushes. They are the most comprehensive parts supplier in the UK and the winner is they are much cheaper for postage.

I don't know why but getting anything out of the USA is very expensive whereas postage within the country is very cheap. 60k across USA only cost $200. Not bad really 🙂

68AutoBug wrote:SHIPPING is the killer..
can be more than the parts.. especially if heavy
over 500 grams...

I just looked at a new magnetic pertronix ring for My distributor
$17-95 and $39 postage..
and they don't weight much at all...

LEE

thats weird? seems to me shipping from OS is cheaper overall than buying local. I find Aussie shipping services are getting ridiculous, slow service, expensive and have had lost items a few times. never had any of this problem from OS yet. Although can get more expensive if the item is heavy, like 10kg + but thats why you buys heaps at once from the same person if you can, that way shipping per item is cheap as chips.

Lucky Phil wrote:Delrin is the brand name Mr DuPont of Dupont Corp. fame gave to his version of the polymer Polyoxymethylene (!) in the late 1950's.
Also known as Acetal, Polyacetal and Polyformaldehyde, they are all referred to as acetal resins.
Their structure is self supporting, and is regarded as a superior product by the manufacturers,
probably due to lower manufacturing costs.
As for performance, who knows?

performance? apparently works good for a while but people say they flog out easy and need replacing on a semi regular basis, but still are supposedly better than urethane in beam applications.