In a bit of change over with my buggy selling and the like at the mo. I'm also turning 40 next year and you know how it is, you start to think, "better do a few things or I'm gonna kick myself later".
So, I'm thinking about broaching the subject of a race car with the missus. Budget is the big thing. Ie. there's very little cash at the mo. However, I can weld, paint, assemble, fab so it should be ok. What I'm thinking is something that could do motorkhanas, track days and maybe some sort of low cost race series later on. Something my kids can learn to drive in too.
So here are my qus.
1. which model? (want least weigh/best handling options)
2. which motor?
3. which class/race series?
4. key/major costs?
My current thinking is leaning towards a late 1300 beetle with BJ/SA and sticking as close to 1600cc as pos to stay in the under 1600 class for IPRA. What do you all reckon?
Bizarre ·
an L bug
pete wood ·
wow, never thought you'd say that! 😂
1303Steve ·
Bizarre wrote:an L bug
x2
Craig Torrens ·
I have what youre looking for for sale....I have sent you a PM. 😎
beetleboyjeff ·
Bizarre wrote:an L bug
X3
pete wood ·
Craig Torrens wrote:I have what youre looking for for sale....I have sent you a PM. 😎
You know, I can really see that in Green with cookie cutters and yellow sign writing 😉
Craig Torrens ·
^^ 😂
BiX ·
L bug if you want to stay VW, but I would be looking outside of the VW stable.
The Excel's have a rally series in each state, and also some states have track series. The specs are similar. The rally cars come from 4k to 12k depending on specs, but for about 7k you can get one fully caged and prepped with decent suspension. Not the fastest, but easy to repair, if you blow the engine $500 at the wreckers get you a new enginer and spare panels etc......
I have been looking at selling my half built L bug and going the excel or import route..... far cheaper.
pete wood ·
cnfabo wrote:Why ipra pete. You would need a beast of a engine just to stay at the back of the pack in ipra series.
Well, IPRA isn't just a race series. Lots of hillclimb guys run that class too. And there are many ways to skin a cat, or in this case, build a beast. IPRA allows you lots of freedoms for a light pre-86 car. I've looked around and it seems it's not all that hard to build a reliable turbo engine that would make over 200hp with mostly stock internals. So that's a real option down the track if I want.
BiX; I know what you mean. I've looked into that in the past. Two things stop me.
1. I'd love a rally car and an excel is the pick as you say, but I just don't have time to do a rally even semi regularly. I literally get 4 sundays off a year and that's it.
2. I like beetles and I know how to make them handle. And parts are pretty cheap for them compared to a lot of other stuff. Yes, the engines are not high HP, but that forces you to really drive and driving is what I'm in it for.
pete wood ·
Just BTW, before I posted this question, I went through ebay motor section starting from 0.99c to see what was available, race-able and cheap. In the end I came back to beetle for a few more reasons; They are; still insanely cheap, light, not as given to rust as most things their age, popular, everywhere, easy to find cheap hot-up bits, rear wheel drive and classic. Everything I liked the look of was either Italian, German, rusty, finicky and or $10k plus. Plus, I know a stack of people who know how to build hot beetles and you can always sell them off easily if you need to. So yeah, there will be no GTi, SRi, Vtec or 16v badges on the side, but I know what I'm getting. 😉
And just so as you know, a series 1 RX7 or BMW 2002 would be my next pick... no one wants me to do that. 😂
cnfabo ·
Oh,I forgot about the turbo route,good option.
waveman1500 ·
This is how I first got into Beetles. I bought my 1500 six years ago for $300 and used it for motorkhanas and khanacross. I started with the stock 1500cc single-port and later upgraded to a stock 1600cc twin-port. I also had 14x6" alloy rims and Monroe GT Gas shocks. Other than that, it was all stock.
They're great if you just want to enjoy competing on a tight budget, but you'll have to spend big money on engine work if you actually want to win at khanacross, rally or hillclimbs. They are competitive in motorkhana though.
Advantages:
Big wheelarches
14" rims are cheap and 14" tyres are cheap. Note that you want to stick to road tyres. If you put rally tyres on, then you will be in the modified class with fully-built rally cars.
You'll be in Class C for motorkhanas, where a Beetle is actually quite competitive.
Disadvantages:
In any racing based on engine size, you'll be thrashed by Datsuns. And Corollas. And Ford Escorts. And everything else. This can be fixed with engine work, but then you'll be spending real money.
Aussie Dubbin ·
Just think again about carbed turbo. Someone suggested to me that turbo carbed, would be good for starting a stopping all the time but flat out high rpm power.
I would go bj/IRS or strut IRS. If you have a swinger then go for it but If you are choosing... IRS is much more stable. Ring richard at Vforce. He is such a wealth of info. Have a read through my thread below. I could rewrite a lot here, but pm me if you have a few questions
I have hit a build snag in my first child,
bugzla ·
Go a ROTA ...................... feel the power 🙂
pete wood ·
waveman1500 wrote:They're great if you just want to enjoy competing on a tight budget, but you'll have to spend big money on engine work if you actually want to win at khanacross, rally or hillclimbs...
That is true for any car in any class. Wanna win, forget the budget, it's money no object. And in rally, nothing wins unless its AWD or the latest $$$$$$$$$ factory FWD. Everyone else is just competing to finish.
Funny you should say datsuns, coz my car club is full of them. However, the fastest driver in the club, by a country mile drives.... wait for it.... a turboed Mazda 121 bubble car. He's eaten porsches and evos in it. That said, he could be driving a ride-on lawn mower and he'd still win. It's mostly down to skill at club level really...
Craig Torrens ·
following this guys "cheap" fun !
pete wood ·
that is truly cheap... and personifies nearly everything (except the results) that I'd rather avoid. 😂
Craig Torrens ·
😂😂......swing axle VW, 1600 with kaddies.......thats what you want !
mactaylor ·
In the latest RACE magazine there is a turbo datsun 1200 coupe that is still basically stock 1200 engine that holds a few track records for its class very good read and quite easy to emulate.
pete wood ·
Doesn't have to have Kads. But yeah, something like that... as opposed to a horrible, ricey magna. 👎
Mac, I was just reading that and thinking pretty much the same thing. 😎
Joel ·
Craig Torrens wrote:following this guys "cheap" fun !
Good on the ol boy for getting in there and having a go.
Although seriously? he takes an insurance write off that has been sitting in a holding yard for god knows how long and when nothing electrical works.... A flat battery? for real? GTFO!!!
That's the first thing you'd check.
Oh well good to see he's a believer in the old coldstart redline for a good time for maximum engine life 😎
sander288 ·
I'd say king pin front and swing axle rear 😏 But if your not into that then a 1302 (L bug???) would be a good start; some great performance parts available off the shelf for this model (KW suspension, bilstein & more)
The king pin beam is stronger and can take more abuse than a ball joint; Andrew Dodd raced successfully with this combo in the 80's
As far as engine goes a turbo motor would be awesome! There is a capacity multiplier though of I think 1.7 so a 1300cc would be counted as a 2184cc if turbo'd which would put it against a bit stiffer competition, also adding a turbo to it when not standard means you'd have to run a restrictor plate
If it was N/A with a 1600 you could defiantly make it scream with some 044 heads, a hot cam, twin carbs and compression for not a great deal of money.
pete wood ·
sander288 wrote:The king pin beam is stronger and can take more abuse than a ball joint; Andrew Dodd raced successfully with this combo in the 80's
Sorry to burst your bubble, but KP beams have two serious issues.
1. camber; it's neutral at best, but even with adjusting the shims, it's almost impossible to get consistent negative camber.
2. trailing arms; they flex and bend under the load of heavy cornering.
Added to all that, it's a nightmare to work on and takes a fitter and machinist to fix properly. Yes, Andrew had success, but really, the guy is a freak. He could race anything and make it work.
Joel ·
pete wood wrote:Yes, Andrew had success, but really, the guy is a freak. He could race anything and make it work.
Ha, now ain't that the truth.
A few members on here will remember back a few years ago coming back from Dorrigo on the freeway when he dissapeared into the distance in that ratty brown split window beetle.
I saw with my own eyes it looks just like a stock 1100 25hp, just secretly Doddified 😂
1303Steve ·
Hi
Who remembers Doddy running around Raleigh in his blue T3 parts getter, it was like watching a ballerina
Steve
sander288 ·
has no-one seen Paul Mantiet run in his Rapier vee? Link-pin front; negative camber and on top of the Vee championship - but yeah with some maintenance considerations
But the beam front axle is never going to be better than the struts (IMO), big brother wouldn't have moved on if it was
hellbugged ·
76, the last beetle had BJ
You know what you need Pete
pete wood ·
Yep, YOUR car Daimo! 😂
waveman1500 ·
In terms of dirt track stuff, all the cars which are currently competing in SA are S-bugs (1302). I think there are a few good reasons for this. They've got IRS, strut front and they're lighter than L-bugs.
In terms of budget and what car to buy, an important consideration is whether you're willing to trailer the car or not. If you don't have a trailer and a suitable tow car, then that would be a major expense. The cheapest way is to keep the competition car registered and drive to events. If you drive to events then for rego purposes you generally shouldn't really have a cage, and you are going to want to make sure you don't break it so that you can get home!
sander288 ·
pete wood wrote:Yep, YOUR car Daimo! 😂
K&L front & swing axle 😂😂😂
1303Steve ·
waveman1500 wrote:In terms of dirt track stuff, all the cars which are currently competing in SA are S-bugs (1302). I think there are a few good reasons for this. They've got IRS, strut front and they're lighter than L-bugs.
Hi
There's 20kg diffeence, 20 kgs is still 20 kgs but stripping the car out will get it down a lot. It mightn't make much difference scratching around in the dirt but at higher speeds a 1303 will leave a flatscreen bug way behind.
Steve
Joel ·
Yep, a tiny bit of extra weight is worth it for the improved aerodynamics and negative scrub 2 bolt suspension if you get the 74-75 Lbug
Anyway if its a dedicated track car just taking out the Lbug Dash and defroster fan is the best part of that 20kg
waveman1500 ·
I thought the front suspension was pretty similar between S and L bugs?
If I'm brutally honest, the real reason all the competitors have S bugs is probably because they look nicer, and the people driving them are all VW enthusiasts. My S-bug hasn't seen the track yet, but I'll count myself in with that group. I really prefer the look of the S-bug to the L, and for looks alone I probably wouldn't upgrade to an L bug even if it was a second faster around a khanacross! As I said, I'll be at the back of the pack enjoying myself anyway, so times don't really matter.
Joel ·
Only the first bunch of 73 Lbugs were the same, 74 and later have the more modern negative scrub radius layout that even todays cars still use.
Combine that with rack and pinion in 75s and you have the best handling bug they made.
vassy66T1 ·
Whatever you decide on, buy a clean one, put a cage, motor, gearbox and swaybars on it start racing.
Don't pull one down to the tunnel and reinvent the wheel (lesson from my own personal stupidity 😂)
pete wood ·
^ pretty much was I was thinking. Drive first, upgrade later. 😉
h ·
👍
look forward to watching what you end up getting pete
Original straight and rust free (98%) South Aus car with
4 wheel disc brakes
KYB shocks all round
lowered beam with Avis adjusters, and country buggy style stiffeners
whiteline adjustable front and rear swaybars
Porsche Cookie cutters with new tyres
VDO Guages
Sport steering wheel
JDM bucket seats.
all for only $3500 !!!
Wow, after reading my own post I think I will keep it now !!!
colin ·
Craig Torrens wrote:I offered my 74 1300...
Original straight and rust free (98%) South Aus car with
4 wheel disc brakes
KYB shocks all round
lowered beam with Avis adjusters, and country buggy style stiffeners
whiteline adjustable front and rear swaybars
Porsche Cookie cutters with new tyres
VDO Guages
Sport steering wheel
JDM bucket seats.
all for only $3500 !!!
Wow, after reading my own post I think I will keep it now !!!
No still sell it, just change the 3 to a 6.😎
Cheers Col
colin ·
To my knowledge you can,t buy Whiteline bars anymore.
Thats gotta be worth something.
Cheers Col
hellbugged ·
Yeah, Pete!
I've seen that car of craigs and it'd be a steal at that price
pete wood ·
Well, got some news last night that puts all those sorts of plans on hold for a least 3 months. Oh well... some time in the future. 😢
Maybe I'll find something else to race...
matberry ·
^^^ like a super charged oval 😍😁
pete wood ·
We'll see. I think it needs a little raising first. 🥷
What is this I'm hearing about Bajas spearing into the bush Mr Berry? Suffice to say, poor Rob asked me to slow down this arvo coz he "wasn't comfortable" after your demonstration the other day... 😂
Craig Torrens ·
so why the oval ?? was it a part trade ?
pete wood ·
Full trade. It's judsoned and mostly original paint. He might have come out a little better, but I think it will work out in the end. Need to conserve license for a while so it's just the ticket. Then who knows, maybe I'll race it.
Craig Torrens ·
As long as you're happy, thats the main thing 👍
matberry ·
Yeah, Bob scares easily I've found 😂
Go the race project and have fun, just don't bend it 🙂
h ·
ahem mr berry brown undies 😂
pete wood ·
matberry wrote:Yeah, Bob scares easily I've found 😂
Go the race project and have fun, just don't bend it 🙂
Yeah, poor guy had his hands up saying, "I'm not comfortable with this". 😂
BTW, the car is very fuely. Could it be running a little rich? Is there a way to give it a touch less fuel?
matberry ·
It's got a 135 main in it by request, Possibly try a 132.5 from a 2.0 litre type 4, but i'd certainly recommend checking AFR's.
pete wood ·
Ok, ta
kombibob ·
Yep 135 main is what is recommended for a 40hp judson. Lots of info at the judson register Pete.
Also in the vintage speed section on the samba there is a lot on judsons.
pete wood ·
cool. thanx mate. It's better once it warms up, but like you said, it's pretty smelly on start up. 😵
matberry ·
If it's better hot, then it's not too rich. Sure it's not just the oil in the Judson burning off after sitting.
andrewl ·
This thread has got me thinking about whether you could build a beetle for IPRA. As a general observation in IPRA there are quite a few small Japanese pre 1986 cars that have had a turbo engine installed. They are competitive and running at the pointy end of the IPRA series. They are light and their 2 litre engines are producing around 350 bhp. A lot of effort and money goes in to getting a car to this stage. Just curious does anyone think the same could be done with a beetle?
vassy66T1 ·
Are you thinking of going circuit (i.e. rubbing doors) or hill climbs and lap sprints?
andrewl ·
I already do sprints and historics - but not in a beetle. Maybe in the next couple of years I will look at a bit of push and shove. The thing about the beetle is the knowledge base Whatever you want to do lots of others have already been there so it is a good car to at least consider.
OZ Towdster ·
You can be assured of one thing , your gunna spend a sh$t load of money getting 350 odd hp out of a vw and keeping it reliable in circut racing
Craig Torrens ·
andrewl wrote:Just curious does anyone think the same could be done with a beetle?
No
mactaylor ·
doubt you would need 350 hp to keep up! the limiting factor for IPRA is tyres. Wally built a little turbo motor that made some good power, there is a thread on shop talk.
andrewl ·
I agree 350 is abit excessive. Given the rules I think aerodynamics might be the real problem.
