Hi

The ramifications if your car is found to be illegally modified after an accident are something to consider, I hope that none of you are ever put in this situation. Just because your car was passed for rego by the local servo doesn’t mean that your modifications are legal.

Here are the facts:

The NSW, Qld & Victorian registration authorities state this. The outside diameter of the wheel and tyre combination must be no more than 15mm over the largest diameter wheel and tyre combination specified for the vehicle and not more than 15mm below the smallest diameter wheel and tyre combination specified for the vehicle.

Fact: The 135 x 15 is 597 mm in diameter, the 165 x 15 is 645 mm, and I was unable to find details on 155 x 15 tyres. So the 135 is 33 mm to small in diameter

The NSW & Qld registration authorities state this. Any replacement tyre must have a load rating equal to or better than the rating of the original tyres fitted by the vehicle manufacturer.

Victorian registration authorities state this. Load and speed rating equal to or better than that required by the standards for registration.

Fact: 135 x 15s have a load rating of 365 kgs, the 165 x 15 has load rating of 545 kg

The NSW & Qld registration authorities state this. The lesser of each front wheel shall be no narrower than a standard wheel fitted to the your vehicle as original equipment.

Victorian registration authorities state this. Replacement wheels and tyres may be fitted provided that they comply with the following requirements:
The width of any replacement rim must not be: less than the width of the narrowest rim specified by the vehicle manufacturer for that model or vehicle series.

Fact: the 135 x 15 is only allowed to be fitted to rims between 3.5 & 4.5 inches wide, so fitting 135 x 15 to any wider rim would be illegal.

This information was found by visiting a tyre shop and reading his tyre standards book and some research on the websites of the NSW, Qld & Victorian registration authorities. Just imagine what an insurance companies lawyers will dig up after you crash into a Rolls Royce.

1302Steve

thats an interesting one

what about agreed value places like shannons, when u tell them u are running these and they agree to cover u.............?

would they agree?
anyone asked and knwo 1st hand?
??????????????????????????????????

so whats the org tyre on a Sbug ...thinkin of PUTTING 165or175(5.0 rim) on front and 205 on back (5.5 rim).I'm in Q.L.D.???:jesus

[Edited on 9-10-2003 by robnjo]

Quote:
"what about agreed value places like shannons, when u tell them u are running these and they agree to cover u.............? "
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Just because your property insurer covers you, doesn't meen your CTP insurer will.

Also the Transport dept doesn't care if you are insured or not, they have their own rules and thats all they care about.

Also consider this, I had an unfortunate incident where a vehicle I owned was involved in a accident where a young person was killed, The Police seized the vehicle and impounded it until it was cheked over by the transport dept and deemed safe and legal. If you have modifications done make sure you have them complianced, If they are something like tyres make sure you have some sort of documentation to back up your argument.
You will not get a chance to change them before they see the car, in the case of an accident.

Hi

Well said Daz that would have been a terrible experience. I have a friend who was run into by a postie, not his fault, his bug was seized and fully checked over by the NSW RTA.

Robnjo, the 205 x 15 can legally be fitted to 5.00 to 7.00 inch rim, the 165 x 15 can legally be fitted to a 4.00 to 5.5 inch rim, so you should be OK, it depends on the profile of the tyre, bearing in mind you can only increase your overall diameter (OD) by 15 mm, so you will need to check with your tyre retailer. I’m running 235 x 45 x 17, which has an OD 643 mm, only 2 mm less than a stock tyre. Just take a stock wheel & tyre along and see what lines up with it.

The 70% front to rear wheel ratio means that say you have 4.5-inch front rims, the maximum rear rims size you can use is 6.43 inch [4.5 x 1.43 =6.435]

You also need to consider headlight height when lowering, 300 mm from the centre of the headlight to the ground. What I’m trying to get across here, is that you can’t do everything legally that you see in magazines in this country, check with an engineer 1st. I’m not being anal just trying to help. BTW, sorry about my outburst the other day, you can’t see my tongue in my cheek when I’m typing.

Victoria have more liberal laws for the time being, soon all states will be using the rules that NSW uses.

1302Steve

Headlight hight depends on the age of the car... you can get away with far far lower on cars that predate the relevant ADR.

I also have an acquaintance that has a car legally registered and approved with 115 front tires. It's a late model car that came with 205s standard.

If you build it right and get the engineers to approve it those rules don't mean jack!

BTW - I have read the engineers report and there was considerable work put into the suspension before he could run what look like motorcyle tyres on the front....

Thats Ok, Cause Stock wheels on a 63 were 4.5 wide, and My porsche Fuchs are 4.5 wide! NO DRAMAS!

N!

Oh and werent early Volkswagens supplied with crossplys which have a smaller speed rating than any Radial tyre?...
Also You state that "just cause your local servo passes rwc" Well that also means that its been approved by a RTA approved person, so therefore they will wear the brunt of any damages. Im not saying the driver/owner wont cop anything, but the RW agent will cop it real good, for not following regulations!

N!

[Edited on 10-10-2003 by Unity-28]

At last a post that I can comment on.
I am an investigator and work for a number of the larger insurance companies.

Fact: if an insurance company can find an excuse not to pay out on a claim it WILL.

Fact: The reason they employ investigators is so that they can find reasons not to pay out the claim.

Fact: Shannons will insure your vehicle as will a number of other companies, the fact that you told them that it was modified does not make any differance, if it hasnt been passed by Motor Reg, or whatever it is called in your state, you claim will be void.
I know that an insurance company here in S.A has insured a V.W. with a 2250cc engine that has 48 webers on it, the insurance company knows this stuff has been fitted but it doesnt know that it has not been passed by motor reg, so when he has an accident and writes off a roller of porsche , the insurance company will not pay out the claim because in all policies it states that the vehicle must be road worthy, the dept of motor vehicles would not have allowed that vehicle on the road if it had known about the IMPROVMENTS.

Yes this does mean that if you have a front beam with adjusters and it has not been x-rayed and approved by Dept of Transport, and you have an accident the insurance company does not have to pay your claim.

The insurance companies will take your money but you have a section on the policy thats called Full disclosure , this means that you have to tell them if you know of anything that might affect your policy.

All alterations to any vehicle have to be noted on the policy, even fitting mags or a decent stereo,

A lot of brokers will tell you that your vehicle will be covered, this is a load of crap, brokers are only after your money as they get paid for selling the policy and dont have anything to do with it once you have it.
So if your broker tells you that your splitty with the suburu motor is insured and you havent had approval from Dept of Transport, he is full of crap, it has to be approved and most important be listed on the actual policy.

Hope I havent upset too many people.
Cheers
Dave

Whos to say no-one has told/agreed with the insurace company anyway? I know I will be getting full AGREED insurance with Shannons, and I WILL be wetting them know everything I have done to it! With Info I give them Will also be a ENGINEERS report, that Deems the CAR SAFE! Everyone that is agains any of these mods, just assumes we are all stupid, and dont look into things like this! I for one wouldnt drive a car that hasent been approved, not for the reason I might kill someone else, But For the reason I might KILL MYSELF!

PS, if the insurace company was notified about that motor, and it was engineered, they would have to pay out!

N!

unity
You didnt read my post correctly
I said that that the guy with the motor has told the insurance company but HASNT told motor reg, so it hasnt been approved,
This means that if he has an accident his insurance company DOESNT have to pay his claim.

The point I am trying to make is you might inform Shannons but if it isnt listed on YOUR POLICY you are not covered,

[Edited on 10-10-2003 by 57kombi]

Yeah And Im telling you that if you have an engineers report that The Insurance company has a copy of, (therefore they know of all mods, with documentation) they will have to pay you out! When regoing a car, you should always let the RTA know all specs of the car, that way it is also covered by the more important insurance TAC! I am getting a Touring car Company here in Melbourne to Engineer my car, And believe me they have the tightest rules out of anyone! How many Street Regd Muscle cars do you see on the road, which you say to yourself, damn, how is that regd. Half the time these monsters have 135's on them and are legal in anyones language...

N

Calm down.
You have just confirmed what I said.
I said it hadnt been approved by the Motor Reg,
If it has and your insurance company has been notified you are O.K.

OK! So who didnt read whos post properly!? When getting an Engineers report, its for the rta not for the Insurance co.
Anyway, This is a real question, and in no way ment in a smart ass way. When you insure your car 3rd party, does it matter if your car is engineered with mods?

N!

[Edited on 10-10-2003 by Unity-28]

If you insure third party fire and theft, you still need to notify them of the alterations as if it is deamed that it wasnt roadworthy the insurance company can say it shouldnt have been on the road.

If it is stolen and you havent told them about the $20,000 you have spent on your 64 beetle they will only pay market value which is about $200.

Same if it is set on fire.

I will give you an example of insurance companies(the whole point I am trying to make is they will try and get out of paying you if they can)
A guy here in S.A bought a Nissan 180sx, it was normally asperated .
He insured it with one of the biggest companies in Australia.
This guy insured it and told them about his $4000 wheels and his $4000 body kit.
6 months later he blew his engine and had professionally fitted a turbo engine out of an imported 180sx. this was a genuine engine.
2 months later he drove into another vehicle, he wrote his car off and also wrote off a ford focus.
The insurance company did not pay his claim as they had not been notified that a turbo engine had been fitted.
It didnt matter that he had used a genuine engine and it was fitted by a Nissan dealer.
His vehicle was on finance and he owed $16000, the ford focus was worth $29000,
he now is faced with a bill for $45,000.

I am not posting these comments to be smart or have a go at anyone.
I am trying to help people and inform them.
Cheers
Dave

Thats Cool, but what Im getting at is, whos at fault when I (example) buy a bug with mods, get it RW at a mechanic, I have no idea that these mods needed to be engineered, but yet my mechanic gives me a RWC no questions asked. I then go and insure the car for third party as its the only thing I can afford, i hit another car, whos at fault then. the mechanic is! I can tell you this, cause I have seen it first hand, and buisinesses closed own cause of this.

N!

The insurance policy means nothing if the car isnt roadworthy, I can tell shannons, it can be on my policy, but if its not roadworthy or the rta doesnt consider it roadworthy because of modifications then shannons dont have to pay...

Not to mention that if you have a vehicle with concessional rego and you have a prang whilst driving out side the guidelines your also screwed but howmany take the gamble I do at times .
Its simple if the ins. co. can get out of it they will, Their investigators cost them chicken feed compared to what they would pay out on claims.
If you have a stack and your tyres tread is worn beyond limits your screwed.
We all take chances at times but know one squeels until their caght, simple as that.

Very interesting 57Kombi & 1302 Steve,
Well I wouldn't be caught dead with 135's or 145's on My Beetle. 155 x 15 was the original radial tyre size, but these are getting hard to find and most Beetles with standard rims now have 165 x 15" tyres fitted. I do know that many VW owners do fit 135 michelins on the front of their Beetle... do they know that when braking hard, the majority of braking is done by the Front wheels/tyres.... I would rather have My 165s gripping than having 135s slipping!!!!
It seems that the RTA has taken over from the police with modified and approved vehicles. apart from the highway patrol who seem to know more than the local police....
Lee

Quote:
"
Thats Cool, but what Im getting at is, whos at fault when I (example) buy a bug with mods, get it RW at a mechanic, I have no idea that these mods needed to be engineered, but yet my mechanic gives me a RWC no questions asked. I then go and insure the car for third party as its the only thing I can afford, i hit another car, whos at fault then. the mechanic is! I can tell you this, cause I have seen it first hand, and buisinesses closed own cause of this. "
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whos at fault ?
Both you and the person/Business who wrote the RWC!!!!

The Person who wrote the RWC for not checking for modifications (Those done at the time of inspection....This is an important statement and can cover their Ass)

And You Because, Ignorance of the Law/modifications is not a defence.

If you wish to debate this, take it up with your local RTA.....

Hi

You don’t have to take my word for any of this, or anyone’s else’s for that matter on the internet, you don’t know if I’m credible or not. They could be a 17-year-old kids whose only experience in car modification is removing their hubcaps. You need to speak to your local registration authorities and their accredited engineers before spending a cent modifying your car.

1302Steve

The latest version of qld tyre rules, and a rough guide to non-engineered mods can be found here

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/qt/driver.nsf/files/images/$file/Vehicle-Modifications.pdf

It says "The nominal width of the narrowest tyre fitted to a vehicle must
not be less than 70 percent of the nominal width of the largest
tyre fitted and never less than the vehicle manufacturer’s
narrowest optional tyre as indicated on the manufacturer’s
tyre placard."

The prob is QLD has had heaps of tyre rules during the last 10 yrs, so if you prove they were put on when they were allowed, your ok. It's a weird messy system.

Keeping all your mods legal is the tricky part of building a car. I have a nice collection of modification codes on my blue plate, and a huge list of mods on my Shannons policy. That way I can sleep at night.

Nectar - can you u2u me the name of the company that you will be using to do the engineering certificate for your car when its done.

i m gonna need to go through the same process in about 6 months.

wow! what a nightmare:o

Golde. THe company is 00 Motorsport, THE SAME COMPANY THAT USED TO BUILT CRAIG LOWNDES RACE CARS!

I will speak to them This weekend, as the weekend that passed, their was a little race on that they were at!!!

N!

Necter is right if you have all the legal documentation then you get what your car is insurance in the event of a smash.
I know first hand rodders who have wrote off all sorts of highly modified cars and they all were.You are all gettin a little conservative.I mean for christ sakes the hot rod scene are cruisin in rat rods that have no floor and are completly rusted out.They just spray with heaps of clear matt coat and throw a woppin big straight 8 in em.135 rock anything wider as front tires looks shit lets face it.