Give me your opinions on the following idea.

Given the horrifying road toll and the daily near misses that we all experience.

To get a drivers licence renewed every time, or to get a full licence from P plates everyone in the entire country, regardless of how long they have been driving or how clean their record is, should have to pass a difficult, thorough and professionally run and police monitored advanced driving course.

Anyone who fails the advanced driving test would go onto P plates or remain on them until they pass the course.

This would mean that anyone on P plates is advertised as incompetent and therefore to be treated with caution, because they have not proven otherwise. That would especially apply to older drivers.

Anyone who failed the test really badly would have their licence cancelled until they had gone through a complete driving course starting with L plates.

The advantages as I see them are that it would weed out the hopelessly incompetent and drum into many people that they learn the road rules and apply them.

It would create a lot of employment in the driver training industry.

Hopefully it would reduce the carnage on the roads.

The laws to set this up should include a zero tollerance policy to drivers who cause accidents from incompetence, ignorance and just plain stupidity.

Repeat offender DUI drivers should have to attempt the test while as drunk as their highest test score. That would either get them off the road permanently or keep them where they belong, on P plates.

I know that this is idealism and it is not likely that it would be instituted, but what are your thoughts?

all for it, but people will aegue it disadvantages them, will make gettin a license harder for some people, where its a necessity to be able to drive, then theres the big bit of who covers the costs involved...

ALSO

the thing that scares the shit out of me mostly is me not being able to handle my own car, im just praying i use my brain while driving it again, will be a sad day if i smashed it, and one more thing, if i WAS ever in a smash, even if i survived, if i severly injured someone or at worst, killed someone, regardless of the outcome legally i would never drive again id say, doubt i could ever bring myself to do it ever again...

[ Edited on 6-1-06 by 1stcarbug ]

I have to admit I think this is a good idea, and have indeed thought of this before.

I'm fairly competent as a driver but am far from perfect, and would surely learn something useful from an advanced driving course. A family friend of mine runs these courses in Melb, and my Dad has offered on numerous occasions to put me through it.... but it'd be embarassing turning up in my 'lil Bug! :P Am thinking about it though.

Also, having seen my grandma's driving skills deteriote rapidly over the past 2 years (why oh why did my Nan have to buy a manual car again! She completely stuffed the clutch before the thing was even a year old... she can't hear the engine properly She's also too interested in what everyone else isn't doing right on the roads instead of focusing on what she's doing) I think it would be great for elderly drivers to be put through their paces again. So many wouldn't end up with a license at the end of it I'm sure.

My Dad has also deteriorated in driver ability, and he has always been my mentor so to speak. It's scary being in the car with him now, as his senses and responsiveness aren't nearly as quick as they used to be, not to mention his jerky braking....

I'm also a strong believer in these kinds of driver courses being compulsory for anyone wishing to live in Australia from overseas. The amount of times I have seen near misses from Turbaned Taxi drivers is too often! Mind you, I see near misses from nearly all Taxi drivers....

Anyhoo, someone else can say their thoughts now....





[ Edited on 6/1/2006 by Pretty_Blue_Bug ]

Good thoughts Richard.. As you know what I do for a job I can give you the benifit of my experience...
Some of the worst out there are people who continue to drive, regardless of their status of licence or qualification...
Many accidents that I attend involve Unlicenced drivers, people who are driving under canceled or suspended MDL's and even more so, people driving under the influence of booze or drugs..
These Geniuses hold the law and the courts in High Disreguard, therefore NO amount of education or qualification is likely to change the habits of these dregs of society and as long as THEY are permitted to remain out there, amoungst the good and just people of the community. With that, there will be little point in forcing the rest of us to become educated into making allowances for these scum...
(unless your advanced driving course includes
"Drive-by's 101" and "Taking out the Trash but keeping your front end in tact").....

Quote:

Originally posted by WA Volksrodder Some of the worst out there are people who continue to drive, regardless of their status of licence or qualification... Many accidents that I attend involve Unlicenced drivers, people who are driving under canceled or suspended MDL's and even more so, people driving under the influence of booze or drugs.. These Geniuses hold the law and the courts in High Disreguard, therefore NO amount of education or qualification is likely to change the habits of these dregs of society and as long as THEY are permitted to remain out there, amoungst the good and just people of the community. With that, there will be little point in forcing the rest of us to become educated into making allowances for these scum... (unless your advanced driving course includes "Drive-by's 101" and "Taking out the Trash but keeping your front end in tact").....

in nsw and qld they have a computer in the patrol cars that run plates that are on cars around them... just cos you dont know about it dosent mean its not happening

"This would mean that anyone on P plates is advertised as incompetent "

Isn't that what they mean anyway?
I think a lot of people confuse "advanced" with defensive.
Defensive driving is a whole other thing.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1stcarbug in nsw and qld they have a computer in the patrol cars that run plates that are on cars around them... just cos you dont know about it dosent mean its not happening

I think it's a great idea, but i also think the system in place already would work a lot better if it was enforced properly. I don't mind if people are doing 5kmh over the limit (stoopid vic laws), what annoys me is that people doing .15 over the limit get away with it with a slap on the wrist.

Also, it seems that here in the 'lucky country' people are all so relaxed that they don't care about road rules/drink driving etc. Comments like "haha.. did ya hear about jonno? got busted doing 80 in a 60 zone while pissed and had to go to court... what a legend" only go to show what a serious attitude problem Australian drivers have.

It'd have to be a pretty serious educational campaign to remove that kind of thinking from the roads.

There's a great new TAC billboard on the freeway here in Melbourne... it reads "Zoning out can be deadly... a 15 minute powernap can save lives" or something like that. The catch is though that some genius at the TAC had the idea to make the first and last few words blurry, as though you are zoning out... so you have to squint to read them... then when you look back to the road again you realise you've been staring at a stupid sign that was telling you to pay attention!!!

Don't know if i trust the powers that be to come up with something that works. Maybe 30second ads on TV with simple reminders such as "look before changing lanes" or explaining again how roundabouts work or even tips on how to keep cars maintained would help... catch the problem at a very basic level.

Maybe... just my random thoughts

One of the things that everyone would learn in a properly conducted advanced driving course would be defensive driving.

Another would be how to speed properly. They would learn about racing lines, clipping points, apexes of corners, braking distances, how to control drifts etc.. That would not send the wrong message it would create drivers who would know what to do and also what not to do in situations. That would be tested, not at speed but by doing what you would do if you were speeding

I'm stunned by the number of people who run off the road on the freeways. WTF??? How is that possible??? Why do drivers run off the road during speed chases? They do it because they are incompetent, so lets raise the competence of the entire driving population.

That then creates another problem but if people are going to get involved in car chases, let's have them doing it competently. Another set of zero tolerance laws would fix that.


Certainly P plates means incompetent but under my proposal you would have older people driving under P plates and the associated restrictions, including curfews. Therfore you would know that you are dealing with a person with entrenched incompetence rather than a younger person who is learning and hopefully improving. The humiliation factor of going onto P plates would be a very strong incentive for older drivers to pass the test.

As to who would pay. The person who wants the licence to be renewed would pay the entire cost. If everyone was involved the costs would be lower than they are now.

I agree that this would not stop the unlicenced/cancelled drivers unless there was a serious and mandatory zero tolerance policy towards them as well.

I forgot to mention any overseas drivers who are here to stay. They would be tested and depending upon their competence they would be given either P plates or a full licence or they would have to do the entire driving course starting from L plates.

People such as tourists on international drivers licences would be put on P plates. If they want a full licence then thay have to pass the test. If they did something to attract attention to their driving skills by being at fault in an accident in a serious way, the the whole starting at L plates stuff would apply.

In other words get competent or get off the roads.

Of course I include myself in all of this.

Oh Dear!! Now my Fascistic streak is starting to show.

PS MY father failed a driving test when he turned 85, fumed all the way home and insisted on another test, which he just passed. I made sure that he never drove again. I inherited his car which was dinged and scratched all around its edges. He never was much good as a driver but when he got old he became downright dangerous.

"That then creates another problem but if people are going to get involved in car chases, let's have them doing it competently."

The world as I knew it has gone mad or disappeared.

[ Edited on 6-1-2006 by lobus ]

shaihulud,
I entirely agree. People in NSW only have to learn to steer, indicate and reverse park to get their license. This is in a country where roads can range from 6 lane freeways to badly corrigated gravel to icy mountain hairpins all within 100km of eachother.

In Sweden, if you want to get your Ls, they send you out onto a frozen lake. When you can drive around a course of cones without spinning out, then they let you on a real road.

We need driver training courses. The yanks have had them in Highschool since the 60s. I don't think people should be allowed to do 90km/h until they know how to stop, drive and steer accurately from high speed. And what about how to overtake properly? You don't need to know how to drift or do handbrakeys to do that, you just need to know how to drive.

And if the extra cost of the course keeps a few extra right lane slugs or teenage fangios off the roads, we'll be all the better for it.

Who knows, if we did this, we might have more Australians as competitive international racing drivers.

as a p plater i resent the above comments saying all p platers are incompetent, stop being stereotypical wankers, we arent all bad.

I'm not saying that this would be easy or cheap or even possible. I'm trying to discuss this without anyone getting sensitive or precious about what is said.

So people who have been driving for years would have their competence called into question and then get upset. A simple driving test would either solve the problem or show them that they are deluding themselves.

If people who fail the test don't like it. Stiff. Pull your finger out, pass the test and the P plates can be taken off your car.

1stcarbug. P plate means incompetent to everyone else, that's why it exists.

Here in Perth my alarm bells ring every time I see a country number plate. It doesn't mean that they are incompetent it means that they may not be used to city traffic, so be careful. and give them some leeway.

The main problem is that L platers are taught to operate a car and then they are expected to teach themselve the rest. Many people never get any better than an operator and it is they who need to be identified and weeded out.

I think that a driver awareness/defensive driver course may do wonders in reducing the road toll. It worked wonders when the NSW government brought in rider training for motor cycles. The road toll for bikers dropped by nearly 80%. You only have to look what harder training methods have done for other forms of licensing (i.e. firearms etc).

Although after having worked in road safety and as a driving instructor, I have found some drivers attitudes just wont change. People are just to complacent when it comes to cars. The simple fact is a car is a weapon and people just dont see cars as weapons and until that changes, neither will our road toll.

This topic comes up every now and again and the only thing that really kills it that the various State & Federal governmants wont fund it. I remember when I was learning to drive my driving instructor taught me emergency stops, took me out on the dirt and showed me some other moves as well. None of my mates or my brother got taught anything like that.

The emergency braking one has saved me countless times in the last 22 years.

training may help, but i think they sold 1 million new cars in aus last year,it wil ltake a long time to teach those people a lone
.a lot of people dont no what abs is or how it works but they no the sales person said its makes you safer,:jesus should train all driver any age .if you have a 4wd no how it works , if you have a holden astra no how its works.
read that little book that come with the car that has useage and driving tips in it
wrote by the people who made the thing,you no the one in the bottom of the glove????
my bug does not stop as good as the 2005 commodore , so i drive keeping this in mind

[ Edited on 6-1-2006 by ian.mezz ]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good you are. If the conditions come together, your doomed. Simple as that.

An issue often overlooked is that holding a drivers license is viewed here as some kind of BIRTHRIGHT where in actual fact it should be a PRIVELEDGE.

Motorcycle riders have to complete a level 1 training course run by Stay Upright before they are even alowed to apply for a learners license. And they pay handsomely for it.
They then have to pass a level 2 course to get their "P" plates. they pay handsomely for that as well.
These courses are compentency based and fail to complete a "competency" fail the course and come back another day!
A motorcycle license is viewed as a PRIVELEDGE, not a birthright.

In my view, drivers should have to complete the same level of training and competencies before they are even allowed to apply for their "L's" at their OWN cost.

There is always an element that will attend and pass such courses, (usually well) and go on to become some kind of rice burning ass-clown, but like the old saying, "You cannot polish a turd" so you cant help a dickhed if he wont help himself.

The statistic show that driver training, be it "Advanced", "Defensive" or whatever name you like to give it, results in increased driver awareness and reduced road toll.
The compulsory motorcycle pre-license training has proved this beyond any doubt.

What makes the drivers of cars feel they are above, or any less in need of such PRE-license training?
A car is just as deadly a weopon as a motorcycle, however the sad fact is that a bum biker runs off the road due to inattention or whatever, usually gets quite hurt.
The softcock driver does the same, dings a guard and get wounded pride having to explain to dad how he adjusted the frontend of the family runabout.....bah!

You want to ride a bike on the road, you ttend, and complete the courses and you pay for it yourself. Its a priveledge.
You want to get a car license, you should damned well do the same, pay for it and like it, or freakinwell walk!

Ahhhh...I feel better now!

L8tr all
E

[ Edited on 7/1/06 by tassupervee ]

I did a defensive driving course over 10 years ago now, and it is worth it. The training they give you is excellent and at the end of the day you feel very confident in any situation. I have not had an accident in that time touch wood(I am putting my hand on my head as i type this). And yes I believe that everyone should have to do this when going for P and Open licence, sure would stop tail gaiting on highways, and motorists would have more respect for each other and road rage would reduce also. But also more race tracks should be built to so we can drive as fast as we want in a safe environment, i live 2 minutes from Lakeside International Raceway here in Brisbane and it is shut down, you know how frustrating that is. So to end my point yes everyone should have to do a driving course and the roads will be safer and more efficient. Cheers Damien

make everyone ride scooters I say!!

At least make ppl ride a bike for a few weeks so they open their sqare box programmed eyes.......

the problem i think with most of this is:

when u have a law that makes something compulsory, and have it run by anyone who receives money for such a thing, you encourage a situation that is opened to corruption and bribery.

If u make it so that a course MUST be passed, well, the problem is I can see alot of people who have the power to authorise those 'passes' being offered bribes. And, in alot of cases, failing people for the sake of more money, or simply because they dont like you.

In QLD, many many moons ago, I went to get my license. And the guy who tested me, as he walked out the door and into the car said 'you won't pass!' not because I had done anything wrong, but because he had a headache, it was the first working day after xmas, and he only passes 2 people a week, and I was not to be one of those people. He stated this, CLEARLY, and in front of my instructor. My instructor turned to me and said. he won't pass u, consider this trip on the house, and just go have fun. So I did. And I failed. I figured if I had no chance, I'd give him good reason to fail me. Was fun for me . But every one knew about this guy. he was mean, he was hard, and he was power tripping. And he's not the first person nor would he be the last in a position of power to purposely refuse someone something 'simply because he could'

Not everyone would do this of course....but it certainly would be there.

I think the other thing is this...the actual dynamics of running this course, and the consequences of it.

I think the benefits of doing such a course would be great. I know...when I learnt to drive, I was taught so many things most kids never got to try. Why, cause I was working for an auto electrican, and he wanted to make sure when I was moving cars, I knew exactly what to do. I was taken out on gravel & dirt roads. Handbrake spin outs, and thru oil spills. It was great.

And because of this, in all my years of driving (decades) I've not had an accident that was my fault, and the only one I had, whilst driving a car, I was able to turn the car to avoid a serious injury. My car flipped, and hers rolled. And neither of us had a scratch. And YES, it really really could have been so much worst.

But im digressing.

What I was going to say is this.

I doubt ANY authority would they think this is a bad idea. the problem has, and probably always will be, in the policing fo such a course.

Who runs it, is the price governed, how are the people conducting the courses evaluated. Who watchs them. Who receives and how are the complaints against them investigated. How to pass the laws without loops holes. Will there be exceptions. How do u assess if this works??

Now, the problem as I see it, those who abide by the law, and who will do these courses, are more over and most likely to be the people who are also driving under the limit, and (system working) NOT causing those horrific accidents in the first place.

The people who are most likely at fault, in the case of the accidents, are those who DIDNT abide by the law in the first place.

The kids who drove a car with 7 other teenagers in it...
The man who was 3 times over the limit when he hopped in his car...
The man who couldnt be bothered to get off the road to rest, and fell asleep at the wheel, killing himself and others...
The truck driver who appears to have taken drugs to stay awake, and killed a motorcyclist..

These are from my imagination, these are accidents that occurred these holidays.

These people weren't abiding by the laws that may have been able to prevent the deaths....so why would they follow the defensive/advanced driving ones??

Because they wouldnt get their license? They wouldnt care. They'd be driving without one anyway.

AND, the loopholes the law would created for those 'emergency' cases, would more likely render the original law useless. QLD raised the 'L' age up, then created a loophole for 'those working or needing their licence under special circumstances' So what happened?? All kids 16 and nine months "needed their license sooner under special circumstances' To the point that QLD says they can now apply, without 'special circumstances" at 16 and nine months.

In ALl honesty, I think those people who would do the right thing in any case "under the compulsory rule' wouls happily do it now, if government reduced the price, governed the priced, or held the classes themselves.

You can't tell me that people wouldn't love to know how to save themselves against 'the other crazy idiots on the road'

Why not run the courses in blocks, and allow people to pay 'block by block'
a/ braking correctly - and correct use of emegency brakes
b/ controlling a vehicle in an oil slick
c/ drifting
d/ controlling a car speeding
e/ controlling a car in a spin

etc etc. if each course cost $40 (similar to a weekly leasson for learners) and could be taken anytime by anyone, you'd probably find heaps woudl actually do it. Rather than have the find $495 for an entire course, which they have to take in all at once.

Old peoples especially need time to learn something before u move them onto the next thing.

And in addition to that, why not give the pensions an incentive to do it, such as a discount for the subjects, or discount for their license for each block they complete (with competence achieved) say 5% per block/subject with maximum of 50% (assuming ten are offered....)

And with me saying this, I also wish to point out this....in my experience, people who truly love their cars, and don't wish to cause harm, love the idea of doing these courses. It seems it is often the case of the costs holding them back. That is why I have paid for a few of my family/friends to do them. If I hadn't had the benefit myself of having learnt from a man who saw a need for me to learn how to handle 'other peoples mistakes' I'd probably be dead. The accident I was involved in was huge, and if not for what he had taught me, I have no doubt I'd have died that day. But I didn't.

And since I couldnt ask him to teach my family, the courses were the next best things for me to give them. At least now, I knwo when their behind the wheel of a car, they know a little more about how to save themselves.

And I plan to send my children on one as well. BEFORE they are given their licence. For their sake, and others.

Having said all that, I'll get off the soap box and let $2.63hbb fing some poo!












Implementing it would be a nightmare.

Wow.... you said it BEB! *claps*

Alot of acidents are caused by people not knowing the 'know how' of how to use a road. As a learner almost ready for my Ps, i can't believe all the idiot open licence people who have no bloody idea on how to use a round about, especially when it comes to indicators. Less than 40% (guesstimate from what i have seen) have used the correct indicators, and it pisses the crap outta me when trying to work out where they are going, especially when some don't use indicators at all. Some people have just no idea how to use the road at all, and are therefore are dangerous.

Simple things like that can lead to acidents, even give way rules, some people are clueless, despite holding an open licence.

I have been certain and sure for the last 8 months that I would go for a advanced driver's course, as well as a defense (and maybe a stunt and performance driving course :P Lol) for the sake of wanting to be a competent driver. The last stress i need is to know that i have been responsible for someone elses death, and a pain like that can last a life time. The courses would be good for peace of mind.

Its interesting though, coming back from coffs harbour, the signs and billboards posted around, there are a few posted along the roads all the way up to brisbane that BLAME THE ROADS FOR ACIDENTS RATHER THAN THE DRIVERS. Its a mix of bad drivers and dangerous roads. I have been on a few dangerous roads, one being the pacific highway from springwood to the loganholme hyperdome in pouring rain, the road visibility is shocking, and the water neva leaves the road, spraying up by the gallons behind car's tyres. That was the worst i had been on, but got through it with patience and care.

[ Edited on 8/1/2006 by mynameischris88 ]

A good course would be one that is run once a month for say 6 months.... starting in Jan so people can drive on nice dry roads,and finishing in June or July so people can drive on wet crappy roads.