Its" all about the price of oil", Billy Bragg has it right. Bush is out for , oil and revenge , he is a hillbilly fighting his family fued that W senior his daddy stated.,
I can only hope that when the crunch comes Johnny Howard turns out to be all hairy chested and no balls he can justify a reversal on his possition in that he has listened to popular opinion within his own country.
Can anyone include a peace Icon next to the beers and christmas tree on the topic post page?
Have your say this is a forum for free speach
RESTORE NOT WAR
Mitchell.

[ ajv: "edited" title to try to get original thread title back, no text changes ]

[Edited on 30-3-2003 by vanderaj]

It may be the case of son taking over from DAD, however do you think that 1 man can have the power to deploy so many troop and assets? Have a think about it! (Deploying stratigic assets like the US has is vetoed by their congress then their CGS staff (Chief of the generals staff) then troops are deployed.

Have a think back to to the mid 70's....Sadam was given all that technology by the US and UK to develop NBC weapons(Nuclear/Biological/Chemical) then by his own doing he decided to test it all out on the Kerds! (Approx 500,00 dead by UN estimates)
So if he has the ability and knowledge and the nurve to test these devices out on his own people.....do you think he could SELL/GIVE a little (5 to 50 litres) away to an orginasation with bad intentions!

It will be to late when a toxin is introduced into one of our wateways/aircon ducts in a major shopping centre/sporting venue!
Time will tell...............

The BALI bombing saw INNOCENT Australians die for what...........having a good time and being AUSTRALIAN.........friendly, helpful, loving, sporting beach bronzed and blond haired Aussies! Have a talk to some f the families that lost loved ones.......see what their reaction would be to not sorting this whole mess out.

Unfortunatly some more people will have to die to fix this mess up; however have a chat with any IRAQIE refugee and ask them why SADAM is a bad man............if you walk away without a lump in your throat.........I would be most suprised!

Cheers
Kombiluva

P.S. Terrorism: To envoke terror into people or populas to provoke fear!

....why not try the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree forum- you'll be among friends there!

So Billy Bragg thinks it's about oil?? ie in 1990, George B snr in total control of Kuwait & with nothing to stop him going all the way to Baghdad (thereby controlling about 30 to 40% of the worlds oil) tells the troops "Lets go home & have a beer boys there's no goddam bars in this country!" Then in 2002 he says "D'Oh!!! I forgot the oil. George jnr go get it!!!". Sheez gimme a break- we're not complete idiots.
And don't you just LOVE the French! ( apart from the 2CV, has anything good ever come out of that place?) I believe the current riddle doing the rounds is:
Q: How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?
A: Nobody knows because they've never done it on their own!

George W;
Johny;
Tony;

sic 'em boys

Now, back to VWs

PS
Simon Crean, you've got nuthin!

Kombiluva

Quote " P.S. Terrorism: To envoke terror into people or populas to provoke fear!"

Well dont you think that this is exactly what the innocents of Bagdad are feeling from both sides? Why dont we try peace keepers do we need war ?it seems to me that the plan was war all along no matter how much the Iraqies cooperate.
And why should Australia feel so strongly about Iraq and ignore North Korea on our own doorsteps is it because they have no oil? and the US wants to revenge for September 11 ,which was a sin whichcannot be justified under any reasoning, but does in numbers pail when compared to civillian losses that have been suffered in countries from south America to east Asia in wars and actions which in nearly every case were sponsored , led or directly planned by the US ?

geodon
" try the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree forum- you'll be among friends there! "
I though I was here!

Anyway get ready for the refugees then you can show some conviction and pasion as well as responsibility for actions you support by welcoming them with open arms not loaded ones.
M.

i agree with you waltermitty but like geodon said this is not the forum for this sort of discussion. Many people hold their political beliefs dear, and this topic of war or no war is creating division among the community, and both sides seem to feel a good deal of animosity toward the other. I'm not saying you don't have the right to voice your opinion, indeed you do thats the great thing about a democracy, but I don't think we need that here.

Hell people might say because we like Volkswagens that we are Nazi lovers!

While i agree with you lets keep politics to the politicians - at least on this forum.

Liam

I think the Americans can deal with saddam them selves, I dont think we can add any more strength to their attack other than political support, Its not in our region, and I seem to remember when we asked the Americans to help with East Timor that J howard was told this very same thing, its in your area deal with it yourselves, all we got was a couple of admin support people. I would wager that the Timor situation was an act of Terrorism by the Indonesians, and I seem to remember, that some of our troops and the Australian people had threats aimed at them, I had not seen any threats aimed at Australia by saddam before we jumped on G bush's war wagon, it was because of Americas help that saddam got these weapons, let them clean it up!
Anybody remember Korea or Veitnam!

Chill out Guys /Girls .... Peace.... :jesus

interesting that the two type 3ers have similar opinions .

It seems that the most opinionated people are those against disscussion at all,
why so , there are no rules in this forum re subjects are there?
is the pro war lobby also pro censorship ??
Why suggest that talking politics is devisive surely if you have an opinion and wish to express it then why not I see people talking about all sorts on these pages from fords to kawasakis.
Surely the subject of eminent war and its direct threat to Australians and repercussions on our economy ie fuel prices are relevant issues for us all. Or should we pretend that nothing is happening.
I know I cant i have a 5 year old asking me what war is.
Yes Australians were killed in Bali that is deplorable, the bombing was undertaken by extremists. The thing is the extremes of all organisations throughout history have been dangerous, especially those conected to religion, the exteme muslem is a minority, the IRA is a minority all these groups and factions are not representitive of the whole.

This is a forum after all look that up in your dictionary.
Isnt democracy about including all points of view and especially sharing those points of view.
If anyone chooses to not express thier opinion then they have every right to do that also.
Anyway I reserve the right to continue trolling as long as the fist are bitting.
M.

[Edited on 16-3-2003 by waltermitty]

Walter is right - General Chit Chat is not just for VW topics. Please keep all non-VW stuff in this forum, and away from the other forums.

The only time any moderator or admins like myself may take action on a thread is if it has gotten completely out of hand and there's major name calling or similar.

That said, there's always places like the Democrats Yahoo Groups if you want to go an have a good argument!

Personally, I think war is the incorrect way to solve the Iraq situation, and there are far more pressing matters closer to home, like North Korea.

Andrew

Fact 1:
The US are the biggest terrorists the world has seen since the Roman empire.

Fact 2:
The US used their own people as guinee pigs when testing their nuclear and biological weapons in the US and I remember the same happening in OZ by the British.

Fact 3:
The kurds are fighting a civil war against the governments for their own land, check all the terrorist bombings in turkey.

Fact 4:
Saddam tried to kill GW Bushes daddy

Fact 5:
Afganistan is now being run by warlords, don't hear about that acountry much anymore do we?

Fact 5 (and the scariest one):
Iraq is only the beginning, the US will then want to start knocking off the other countries, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc. All the countries that at present don't have a mcdonalds.

I think it is about time Australia beacame a neutral country as everytime we bomb another country we are killing relatives of someone living amongst us.

What we are seeing right now is the greatest smoke & mirrors act ever seen.

Somehow, Iraq has become the September bombers. Last year it was Afghanistan. Who will it be next year?

Then the Bali bombing.
With all due respect to anyone who knows a victim, an Indonesion set off a bomb IN Indonesia.
This, somehow is seen as an attack on Australia.
Had it been in Kings Cross, I'd agree.

This war, that I hear starts tomorrow, will be an unprovoked attack on a Muslim nation, & THAT is the bit that scares me.

If this does turn into the "holy war" that the fundamenalists want, no one or nowhere is safe.

The English haven,t won a terrorist war.
The Israeli's haven't won, the Yanks won't win & Deputy Ditto is inviting it here.

As for Australia becoming neutral........I think we'll be the 53rd state first.

Bugged , you forgot one,
- US is the only country to use Nukes against another country - Japan

I feel that this has the potential to turn into a Holy War too. It strikes me that Bush is hell bent on closing unfinished business with Iraq and getting into the history books.
A further worry is anti French and Euro sentiment that is being fueled in the US currently. I have been getting US email propoganda about the Euro Union and how bad it all is.

[size=4] Iraq invaded KUWAIT which started the GULF War... the USA and the FREE World MUST Make them Pay - before they left KUWAIT- IRAQ set fire to Over One Hundred Oil Wells... spewing thick black Poluttion into OUR atmosphere and it probably the Major cause of the Depletion of the OZONE layer over the Pacific... It took approx 9 months to put the oil well fires out.. by the USA.. Now In Australia We must have police... Its the Same with the WORLD .. because there will Always be IDIOTS like Hitler and Idi Armin about who massacre thousands of innocent people in their own country... The USA was the Major Country to stop Communism spreading around the World... Now they must stop Terrorism from spreading around the world -- Do You know that at the end of the 2nd world war there were ONLY 24 Houses left in DARWIN .. More bombs were dropped on Darwin than on Pearl Harbour... So don't You think that the Atomic Bombs Had to be Dropped !!! or would You rather be speaking Japanese Now... if our families hadn't been tortured to death that is.... [/size]

IRAQ will not stop its terrorism if limp wristed people let them carry on.... You have short memories... IRAQ INVADED KUWAIT - a peaceful nation- and set fire to over 100 oil wells... which the USA put out...

Quote:

Originally posted by waltermitty Its" all about the price of oil", Billy Bragg has it right. Bush is out for , oil and revenge , he is a hillbilly fighting his family fued that W senior his daddy stated., I can only hope that when the crunch comes Johnny Howard turns out to be all hairy chested and no balls he can justify a reversal on his possition in that he has listened to popular opinion within his own country. Can anyone include a peace Icon next to the beers and christmas tree on the topic post page? Have your say this is a forum for free speach RESTORE NOT WAR Mitchell.

Lee I don't think implying that Walter is a dick head is going to help the situation at all...

Please refrain from making personal attacks.

i'm on the side of peace .
i really hope that this war doesn't happen, though to be honest i'm sure that it will, the most that i'm hoping for is that jonny will decide to pull the australian troops out (still i'm not holding my breath)
btw, i do think that this is as good a place as any to discuss this.
bugged and grey i agree with your comments about the joys of america's foreign policy/actions, but you forgot one point.
i'm sure you have heard of gulf war syndrome... caused by the use of depleated uranium wepons...
nobody talkes about the amount of DU left lying about after the gulf war, plus even more tellingly, the US went into kosivo to help the people there but in the process sprayed about and left behind TONS of DU warheads.... not exactly what you would do if you actually intended to help the people of a country.
so to sum up not only have they dropped nukes on another country but have sprayed tons of radioactive material over several different countries.
still i suppose that it means thay don't have to store thier nuke' waste in thier own country.
plus while you are tallying up the lovely things done by the US don't forget all the revolutionary forces and dictatorships supported, funded and trained by the US in the 70's, 80's, and (poss.) 90's.
all said and done i belive sadam is a very nasty man, but invasion isn't the right way to get rid of him.
oh well best stop now before i get carried away.
henry.
btw, how can the pro war people justify the death of innocent civilians in the name of "the war against terror".
oh one last fact more innocent civilians were killed by allied troops in afganistan than well killed in S11.

Its great to see that there is a variety of opinions here the important thing is that there is that we do have opinions and that we are free to express them here and wherever we wish. I would hate to think that we all agreed on such an important issue.
The way people/governments reach agreements is by discussing thier point of view and debating it in a ordered manner, when one party feels very strongly about his/her opinion then it is even more important thet he deals diplomaticaly with those that he dissagrees with so that differences can be resolved .
The US has totally ignored the rational disscusion route and has thumbed up the UN Security council by passing the legal and correct methods for controlling the situation.
If you do not agree with me please dont get personel show some intellegence and diplomacy and haveyour say here make a possitive contribution I respect you for doing so even if I dont agree or even think that you are wrong, personel attacks are the acts of weeklings glady the worst of what has been said to me on this issue has been done so in private in direct email (by someone who likes to ham it up) keep your acts of small mindednesss there dont present them here so that this intellegent debate may continue .
RESTORE NOT WAR

P>S> an interesting historical asside , when Kuwait was annexed fron IRAQ after the WWII Winston Churchill said "the secure future of oil reserves lies in thier variety " he meant that if the oil reserves of the world were held more countries then it would be easier and cheaper to obtain by those who didnt have it (or those who use a hugely dissproportionate amounts like the USA).
This was used as a justification of dividing IRAQ and creating Kuwait. He also knew that by land locking Iraq that they would be more dependant therefore beholding to the industrialised nations of the West.
The fact that this was the train of thought then suggests that it always has been "ALL ABOUT THE PRICE OF OIL". (If anyone can explain to me why Iraq was anexxed in the first place i would like to know.)
It is often overlooked that Iraq was attempting to regain its soverign territory when it invaded Kuwait.
Another asside, in 1968 the UN security Council issued several "SECURITY COUINCIL DIRECTIVES" dealing with issues in relation to its invasions of Egypt and Lebanon, these are the same instruments that were issued to Iraq before the last war and now before this one meanwhile the Isralis continue to ignore those issued against them with complete impunity, Why, ITS ALL ABOUT THE PRICE OF OIL, and who you know.
I do not in any way think that Sadam is a nice guy but I dont think he is connected to Sept 11 or that he is the only despot I just wish that these matters wrere dealt with in a consistant manner and in a cooperative way not by one arogant nation looking after its own self intrests.
Where will it stop?
Mitchell(not walter).

[Edited on 17-3-2003 by waltermitty]

As tempting as it is to start up my own little ban wagon I will resist for reason all of my own. However a few points to consider:
- in the current world climate Iraq does effect us all and to say otherwise is to display a high level of ignorance.
- The only reason Sadam is giving any co-operation at all is because of the 250 000 odd troops sitting on his door step. If they were not there there would be no arms inspectors.
- It may well be all about oil, in which case France and Russia have more at stake then they would like to admit.
- Without USA support in East Timor the job would have been much harder than it was. They provided more $$$ worth of equipment and support then our Army sees in a year.
- The UN needs to have a good hard look at itself, what good are rules if no one listens.
- Diplomacy is great but the only reason we can all freely comment on issues such as this is because of war.

When Jonny askes George to send troops to help in East Timor he replied that it was out of his region of influence ..too far from home??? he sent no troops perhaps some money, now he is even further from home but has no hesitance , he has different priorities of course , I must ask what are we doing there and what advantage do we hope to gain ? and at what cost , we are risking much here not just the lives of Australian troops.
Mitchell(not walter).

Silver thats right and most of that distruction was spent out in the name of Christianity ...the crusaids and catholisism.. missionaries ..
M:thumb.

Which is why I'm an athiest....

Yes, agent orange is, or was, a defolient.

But the white powder in envelopes?

Military grade anthrax!!!!

What the f#ck is a military grade disease?????
& how do they know?

It DID harm humans though... defoliant (is that a word?) or not.


Jay

RESTORE NOT WAR

I know very well that it harmed humans I have seen the proof, and I'm not even going to enter a conversation on how I know first hand. But the 14 year old made it sound like it was used on Aussies and Yanks on purpose.

It was used by the Americans some of it was even sprayed by bare hands. So of course they got sick.

Waltermitty i certainly hope you weren't suggesting that i am pro war and and pro cencorship because i certainly AM NOT. It is our DUTY as citizens in a democracy to question our goverments lunatic policies, and we need the freedom to do so, otherwise we are all finished.I guess what i was getting at is i hope people can respect peoples difference of opinion and not get personal and abusive. I am resonably new to this forum and thought the subjects were for VW's only. Forgive my ignorance. And i think a peace symbol is a good idea to have in the icons.

Liam

[Edited on 17-3-2003 by T3Forme]

Sorry if I wasnt clear T3 Forme on the contrary I was applauding your point of view and Identifing with a fellow Type 3 owner or did i stuff up again and the T3 is for kombi not varient?.
Mitchell(not walter).
RESTORE NOT WAR