Just continuing on from the other thread - why are people against religion?

Praise the Lord!

Im not against religion nor anyone who is fanatical about it. Its great to have a love and belief for something so much.

I just have a problem when your inocently walking down the street minding your own business and someone tries to jam religion down your throat..................that aint the way to convert.

And, what other post???????

gtmac, the "is stealing wrong" post.

i just hate everyone equally

Don't have a problem with some forms of religon at all. It's the far out extremists who want to kill everyone who doesn't worship their "god" that get up my nose......

everyone can chose. It's a free right in this world to do so. I have mine and if someone asks me about it I'll tell them about it but certainly will not force it apon anyone who doesn't want to know.

You can summarise every religious war ever fought in one sentence:

"My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend."

* Everyone is entitled to their own faith, and I object to people trying to thrust their beliefs on me. I don't try to convert other people to Volkswagens - but I will help you once you've come over yourself.

* I object to religion using unverifiable promises, and threats, to bring people into line, especially children. "Be good and do as you're told, and you'll go to heaven. If you're bad, you'll burn in hell forever." I have had a recent episode of protecting my daughter from over-zealous scripture teaching at school.

* I especially object to some religious leaders (especially fundamentalists) perverting science to try to convert people, again, particularly kids. The creationists are the worst, with their lies about scientific geology, astronomy and biology to promote their irrational beliefs. Critical thinking is a skill we must teach our kids.

I am afraid that world war three, when it eventually comes, will be fought over religion.

Religion has caused more death, war and suffering than anything else in history. Id rather people had more faith in themselves personally
This is strictly my own opinion, if people choose to follow a religion I also respect their chioce to do that.

i think they are all good and fair points, but religion also gets generalized. There are many many great things that come from peoples belief that act in a positive way towards the world. There is obviously a good argument either way.

Personally i think its best to assess it case by case, person by person, church by church and so on. MY personal belief comes from an understanding of the bible - i believe that the bible is God breathed, which basically means the bible is Gods direct word to us.

I think culture is also different now - those born in the 50s, 60s and possibly 70s were probably forced to go to church, or follow their parents way, at least thats what i see of the Christian faith. I think today its more of a personal choice rather then one pushed on you by your parents etc.

Religion may have casued many wars and deaths, but the flip side is that it has also given love, acceptance and understanding when people have needed it, community work and helping the poor, raising money for good causes etc.

Generalised statements don't really help, its up to an individual to find out for themselves what they believe and why - for me i look to Jesus as the perfect witness and i believe in that. I go to an Anglican church, but i wouldn't call myself an anglican, i would call myself a Christian.

This doesn't make me better than anyone else either. Christians a generally seen as hypocrites because they don't practice what they preach - i try my hardest but i dont practice what i preach, its hard work - All true Christians would say that they are sinners and need forgiveness.

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Originally posted by Gibbo Religion has caused more death, war and suffering than anything else in history. Id rather people had more faith in themselves personally This is strictly my own opinion, if people choose to follow a religion I also respect their chioce to do that.

I beleive that religion is just a way of trying to explain the unknowns. They are stories, moral beliefs and rules to try and convince children to do the right things. The beliefs and rules are very similar across most religions.
Simon

Most of the religous slaughter fests are the the result of some unelected priest/kult leader/witch doctor pointing to someone or something and saying that it is not Gods way or word and should be "cleansed" eg: The Crusades, protestant/catholic purges, The Spanish Inquistition, Salem Witch trials etc etc
Then you ask "whats wrong with religion?" Look at history there are plenty of examples.
Faith is completely different. That is someone's personal belief/life choice that each person needs to find after experiencing or studying as much as Life can offer.
If you need to be threatened or bribed or brainwashed into a life choice then you are only a puppet not a being. The Bible is a good book to live by, NOT to live FOR. My2c

Pete you make some good points, but unfortunately religion does have to wear some blame for the wars of the last century. WW1 was sparked by uprisings in the Yugoslav potions of the former Austro-Hungarian empire. That part of the world is still an ethnic and religious hot spot. No one could ever forget the Nazi persecution of the Jews during WW2, and then the tensions when the British created Jewish Israel on then Islamic Palestinian land in 1948. All the tension in the middle east since comes down to religion. The first thing Saddam did after invading Kuwait was to fire Scud missiles at Israel. No one doubts that the US is involved in Iraq now over oil, but the locals see it as a religious struggle - jihad.

Even the Christians fight one another - look at Northern Ireland over most of last century. Even here, I can remember growing up in a protestant government school and picking fights with the catholic kids from the school down the road. No one knew why. We were just following the older kids, who learned it from their older kids and so on. Even the fallout between Don Bradman and Bill O'Reilly was based on protestant-catholic rivalry. It's so stupid.

I think the Cronulla riot thing was based on redneck racisim and the 'us vs the mussos' thing. What a disgraceful episode that was. But ultimately islamic fundamentalism is as bad as christian fundamentalism, or Tom Cruise scientology fundamentalism, or any other fundamentalism.

Do we really need religion to teach us morals? Surely we can work out ourselves what is right and wrong? We know that stealing, murder, child molestation and racisim, for example, is wrong and always has been.

I class evangelism as akin to aggressive marketing, and yes bible-bashing is invasive and tends to have the opposite effect - it puts people off. Yes we all love Volkswagens - we are the converted! - but it would be rude to go to the Holden V8 forum and attempt to convert them. We would not like it if they tried to convert us - fights and arguments would eventuate in either case. So it should be with religion.

BTW, educational systems began in ancient Egypt and were first formalised by the ancient Greeks, many hundred years of years BC. The Greeks also began the idea of the justice system and the courts - the symbol of justice, the scales, began at that time. The Egyptians had worker contracts (the pyramids were built by contract workers, not slaves), as well as the largest library in the ancient world, at Alexandria. Religion does many good things today but can't take the credit for the way our society works. There are good reasons for the separation of church and state.

it could only be true religion if it didnt take sides and didnt kill anyone even if a politician tells u to do so

Pete, I think it's a little simplistic separating religion and nationalism. Often it takes the form of religious nationalism, which is worse than either of the two on their own.

Also, I think that books like the bible etc might have been good to live by and as a method for teaching morals way back when (could have been written for this reason I would imagine), but in this day and age when you have to skip so many passages because they boil down to feudalism and outdated views we should look elsewhere for guidance.
This can be seen by those who take ambiguous passages literally and use it to justify their (extremist or otherwise) actions. It's ambiguous, which means it's either badly written or outdated or both. Why should one then look to it for guidance when you can find it elsewhere. Maybe they can't.

Grogy, everyone takes sides. It's whether you take sides for other's benefit or for your own personal gain that's the issue.

Wild1, what you say has some merit, what I think we discount is the force of that nationalism/tribalism. Religion is only one part of tribalism. People start thinking in pack us VS them mentality. What happened in Northern Ireland was pure tribalism. It just ended up being stamped with the protestant/catholic stamps just like the public/catholic school thing that's been mentioned.
Hitlers actions toward the Jews in WW2 were a masterstroke of socio-religious deception. He found a scapegoat for germanies problems and used it to terrifying effect. This is tribalism at it's worst. I also agree that building of the modern Israel in 1948 was politically inept (not to mention highly theologically suspect).

Re the bible; it's main purpose is to talk about Jesus. When you get that clear, it makes a lot more sense.

I think you've given us the bum steer about the Greeks, Pete!

^ bad joke dude!

yeah, ok, I'll cop that. Plato's 'republic' was the first serious document to think about education. Thing was, it was education for the elite and pederasty was the norm in Greece too (although Plato wrote against it). Christianity brought education to the masses. Protestants after the reformation (same time as the enlightenment) wanted everyone to read the bible (in their own language) so they taught everyone to read. Most universities were started Christian institutions, but have moved away from that. Eg. My wife's grandfather went to Cambridge during the 20s. He came out as a minister as well an engineer. On a sidenote, he invented the rolling road dyno for F1 cars.

But it's been seen that religion far too often breeds tribalism. In fact, that's one of the reasons why religion leads to the kinds of atrocities as we have seen in the past (just look at the crusades!).

Also, just because a particular religion started something or brought something to the people is no reason to justify it's continued existence. Christianity might have been needed to bring education to the masses, but:
a) we shouldn't all think that it would not have happened otherwise, and
b) is no reason whatsoever to keep it. We have schools now (and hopefully with religion kept out of them - but I shan't open that can of worms)

You may be right about point A. Although, there were thousands of years of education prior to that and it never en mass anywhere else.

As for point B, well I'm going to have to dissagree with you.

pete, everyone takes sides for their own personal benefit, the hard part is to do it without hurting others,and hopefully they can benefit also. but if we do it because we are right, and it does hurt others then we are probably not right anyway

But isn't that (Cronulla) mainly about entrenched poverty and the frustration arising out of that?

.....there are some of us that take sides with nothing to gain for ourselves, but I see your point.....

How can you say that Pete??? Isn't it your JOB...you get PAID to do what you do so you gain somethng out of it.
On a side note it's great to see everyone sharing opinions without getting too carried away.Keep it up!!!

when you die you are dead!
religion is for people who are scared by that
you can only live on through your children its that simple

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Originally posted by MickH .....there are some of us that take sides with nothing to gain for ourselves, but I see your point..... How can you say that Pete??? Isn't it your JOB...you get PAID to do what you do so you gain somethng out of it. On a side note it's great to see everyone sharing opinions without getting too carried away.Keep it up!!!

Everyone has decisions to maker in their lives....Pete's comment was incorrect as he gains personally from what he does,which is a decision he made.

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Originally posted by MickH .....there are some of us that take sides with nothing to gain for ourselves, but I see your point..... How can you say that Pete??? Isn't it your JOB...you get PAID to do what you do so you gain somethng out of it.

Jesus = Prozac then Pete?