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Brake upgrades
downunderxx - May 25th, 2010 at 11:42 AM

Hi Guys, I have completed a disk brake conversion with the spindles and standars kit on the front of my daughters 71 beetle. I'm still not overly impressed with the braking, and given this will be her 1st car, I would like it to be as safe as possible. Am I missing something, is there a master cylinder change or something to be done to match the disk brakes that would improve the overall performance?


downunderxx - May 25th, 2010 at 11:44 AM

Sorry. The disks are on the front only


STIDUB - May 25th, 2010 at 12:09 PM

adjusted the rears?
bleed them?
if its a 71 it should of had front discs already?
pics of what you have may help...


Bizarre - May 25th, 2010 at 12:17 PM

your stock set up "should" be ok

Mine is with a half warm motor

But I have new rotors and pads
Maybe your discs are glazed or something
Old hoses and fluid can be a problem as well

It wouldnt be THAT much to do a whole new set up
rotors, drums, pads, hoses, fluid and refurbished calipers


Uber Kafer - May 25th, 2010 at 12:28 PM

As mentioned by Bizarre & STIdub, other components may be the culprit. Old flexible hoses can be devils, they can stretch when pressure is applied and rob braking energy, or be internally swollen and restricting proper fluid flow. There is also a prescribed method of breaking-in new discs and pads, which not many people bother with. Search on the net for more details.

A properly working beetle disc brake system can be extremely good for a non-assisted braking system..........

So, are you comparing it against a modern vacuum boosted system? ..or do you just have to push harder?


1500S - May 25th, 2010 at 02:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Uber Kafer
Old flexible hoses can be devils, they can stretch when pressure is applied and rob braking energy, or be internally swollen and restricting proper fluid flow.


That's exactly the problem I have on the Type 3 but the original drum front. Normally reasonable braking but 3 years of near zero use has gummed things up a bit. Both front flex lines have a bad case of cholesterol arteries!

DH


barls - May 25th, 2010 at 03:01 PM

ive got a 72 sbug which has the disc front end as standard. the old man and i fitted a vh40 or 44 which ever was smaller and its reduced my stopping distance greatly.


Bizarre - May 25th, 2010 at 05:07 PM

I take it the VH 40 is a brake booster out of something or other??


barls - May 25th, 2010 at 05:13 PM

yeah its one of the universal ones. its work really well in my car , that said the stock in good condition works well also.


13bwagon - May 25th, 2010 at 06:12 PM

hey barls any pic's of that mod?


barls - May 25th, 2010 at 06:21 PM

ill see if i can find one. its fitted to the passenger side in the same spot as the master cylinder does on the drivers. ill start looking now and see if i can find the pic


downunderxx - May 26th, 2010 at 12:23 AM

Thanks for the responses again. I will clarify a few points.
The car is a 71 but was an import so standard with drums all round.
I fitted the new rotors and calipers on the front only. The lines were the original so will check them and re bleed the entire system. Yes I did adjust the rears after installing new pads. And yes I guess I am comparing to modern day assisted brakes. The reason for the question was to gauge what I should expect out of this standard set up, as the car is for my daughters first car, and I would like to make it as safe and reliable as possible. Has anyone fitted a booster etc. What are the racers using, surely not standard!.


STIDUB - May 26th, 2010 at 12:47 AM

EF-EL ish falcon rear discs are a relatively easy fit, pics & info on my thread, hellbugged's, vwcool, & alot of others..

for a stock bug the stock brakes, maintained properly should be more than adequate, myself & my sister learnt to drive in mine, then it was my daily for a year or so, i wasnt gentle on brakes & it worked fine, though i knew it was an old beetle, locked them coming down a hill in torrential rain with 3 girls in it once but nothing major, still stopped at the lights at the bottom, tyre choice may of had something to do with that too, keep that in mind once the brakes are sorted

perhaps compare it to another beetle near you with known good brakes if possible?
location should help, alot of people are willing if asked nicely on here :tu:


colonel mustard - May 26th, 2010 at 01:04 AM

rear disc kits for like $700-800.... you can get better quality pads... hellbugged has them on the noth i think... drilled or slotted rotors to cool them quicker...


should really need big brakes on a beetle with a stockish engine... I believe that Joel has standard fronts with disc rear kit, and he has an ej22 powering his beetle. stops amazingly.


Bizarre - May 26th, 2010 at 06:56 AM

just put new stock discs on the front

A lot of "mild" racers use stock disc up front and type 3 rear drums - whick were bigger

that is an easy upgrade but parts are becoming hard to get


1303Steve - May 26th, 2010 at 08:48 AM

Hi

David ran 3 sessions at the supersprint without any trouble, hes using 944 rears but these wont mask poor performing front brakes.

His front brakes are new German rotors and early Type 3 callipers (pre 1972), these have a slightly bigger front piston than Beetles, they can be recognised by having twin pins and only having one bleed valve.

Type 3 rear drums are cheap upgrade for the rear.

Steve


grumble - May 26th, 2010 at 07:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by barls
yeah its one of the universal ones. its work really well in my car , that said the stock in good condition works well also.

The VH44 is a universal brake booster that we in the trade have been using for over 40 years,they are compact & efficient,reducing pedal pressures and stopping distances by an incredible amount. I have fitted dozens over the years to all types of vehicles,the fitment to the bug is easy,compact and very efficient.
I cannot understand why anyone would fit disc brakes without the vacuum assistance. Cheers Les


Joel - May 26th, 2010 at 07:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by STIDUB
adjusted the rears?
bleed them?
if its a 71 it should of had front discs already?
pics of what you have may help...


only supers got discs in the 70s
but yeah like above check your rears, cos with setup right stock discs and rear drums pull up amazingly well but the rears have to be perfectly adjusted

and +1 for the swollen hoses
caught me out once
looked perfect on the outside, but wouldnt pass any fluid


colonel mustard - May 26th, 2010 at 07:42 PM

^^ hence why, i have new hoses since i have new calipers and discs... no point finding out later that you needed it!


downunderxx - May 26th, 2010 at 10:40 PM

All great responses guys, and a few options in there for an upgrade if I still feel it necessary.
Still wouldn't mind more detail on the VH44 booster fitment. I think this would be a popular mod for many on this forum if we seen how it had been done.


1303Steve - May 27th, 2010 at 12:13 AM

Hi

A booster wont fix poor performing brakes, it will only make them easier to operate for Nancy boys. You would need to run two boosters, one for each circuit.

Steve


barls - May 28th, 2010 at 09:06 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v353/barls80/_100_2551.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v353/barls80/_100_2552.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v353/barls80/_100_2553.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v353/barls80/_100_2550.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v353/barls80/_100_2554.jpg

this is not my car but another one we fitted one to.


downunderxx - May 28th, 2010 at 09:24 PM

Thanks Barls, thats what I was after. What did you do for vacuum?


barls - May 28th, 2010 at 09:30 PM

mines tapped into the manifold balance tube.


Joel - May 29th, 2010 at 10:42 AM

geez one step forward to two steps back

why would u want to have a dinosaur single circuit brake system for the sake of having a booster?

if an 88 year old grandmother can drive her 70 bug without one (and trust me she knows 2 speeds, stopped and 50mph) and not crash it once in 40 years then most average Joe Blows should manage fine as well


VDU.88A - May 29th, 2010 at 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Joel
geez one step forward to two steps back

why would u want to have a dinosaur single circuit brake system for the sake of having a booster?

if an 88 year old grandmother can drive her 70 bug without one (and trust me she knows 2 speeds, stopped and 50mph) and not crash it once in 40 years then most average Joe Blows should manage fine as well


That was just what i was thinking also this would no longer comply with the ADRS for the vehicle assuming it came out with dual circuit cylinder as standard. If it came out with single circuit the easiest upgrade would have been a dual circuit system

I'm with you on this one I have no dramas with the stock dual circuit system. Properly adjusted drums and bleed system you should pull up in no time at all. Why over complicate the situation adding booster extra pipes etc.


mactaylor - May 29th, 2010 at 04:12 PM

yeah twin pin type three calipers and type three drums bendex ultimate pads and good fluid in my old beetle had the front discs red hot and only a little fade after a hard run down granya gap road. not many "normal" cars can do that.


grumble - May 29th, 2010 at 09:17 PM

Whatever,downunderxx asked a question and we supplied an answer,for anyones info this is a 1962 bug. To change to a dual system would still use the same pedal pressure.end of story.


matberry - May 29th, 2010 at 10:25 PM

I fitted one of those style boosters way back to a costomer car upon request.....sorry. I hated it.

The brakes seemed to have a mind of their own, very vague when operating, and wouldn't release until you were well off the pedal....pretty crazy stuff.
Stock works fine untill about 140 rwhp and a mad nut behind the wheel :) .


Craig Torrens - May 30th, 2010 at 11:05 AM

The question here should be "what brand" of front caliper did you use with the disc conversion.

I raced for well over a decade with standard OEM brake parts (Type 3 brakes on a beetle) with NO probs and great pedal feel and response.

Recently I replace the drum brake frontend with discs on my 74 beetle. I used a "no name" copy caliper and the pedal feel is crap and the brakes feel worse than the original drums.......so what caliper did you use ?

Dont get suckered into using boosters and discs all round, you dont need it :tu: