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Aircooled EFI question
Huffypilot - April 15th, 2013 at 05:50 PM

HI
Im slowly rebuilding a Manx and have a few EFI bits & pieces gathered with the intention of setting up a regoed ITB dual sport type vehicle.

I currently have
Microtech LTX10 - Thinking about swapping for a Haltech
X4 ignitor
Dash
Loom
Crank sensor and pick up

The engine is an unknown TP 1600 ? Id like to run (and learn) EFI on the 1600 while I save for a new engine. I was wondering if I install the EFI system now while the car is apart is it possible to retune the ECU my self when I repower the Manx with a larger aircooled engine ? Is it as simple as adjusting the factory programme tuned for 1600 cc to run a larger engine of the same type ? I dont want to be tied to a dyno every time I change something which is possible in the early stages of driving and setting up the car. As you can probably tell I dont know a lot about EFI ...

Cheers

vlad01 - April 15th, 2013 at 07:16 PM

you should be easily be able to tune small to moderate changes in the engine.

I am learning EFI tuning my self, its not that hard if you have a base tune to start from and good helpful community of users for your ECU, that is really important, the support from other users and/or the developers. Have no idea how that will be with haltec.

you will however need a dyno to get the ignition map spot on, the seat of your pants can only get you in the ball park to say 90% correct if you are real good. but that should only required once you got everything else more or less right

AFR map is the easy part, just get a wide band and that should be pretty easy to get right.

matberry - April 15th, 2013 at 07:24 PM

Definately doable. I have done many. It takes many hours to get the details right but each system needs to be learnt, and some are quicker to tune than others. There's heaps of info online these days to make it easier.

Huffypilot - April 15th, 2013 at 07:45 PM

What type of ECU have you guys been working with ?

Vlad from what I understand wideband isnt available on the microtech which is one of the reasons why I was considering the Halltech. A AFR gauge can be added but it is for visual reference only and was expensive compared to a stand alone unit. I really like the idea of running wide band with a O2 sensor to control each throttle body. Probably over kill for a knock around buggy.


Thanks for getting back to me

vw54 - April 15th, 2013 at 08:02 PM

Quote:

I currently have microtech LTX10 - Thinking about swapping for a Haltech



That would be the best move you could make

I had MX8 and gave it the FLICK after numerous problems

best money you will spend also will save you heaps of money in tuning time

Sides - April 15th, 2013 at 08:15 PM

Haltech PS1000 + wideband + laptop = happy times for me

:D

I've found Haltech support and forums to be excellent

:tu:

20bkombi - April 15th, 2013 at 08:51 PM

Never had a problem with any microtech I've tuned. Apart from me using injectors that we're to big and over powered the drivers, my bad!!! Then i got them upgraded, which now come standard in new models.

Pm me if you want to sell the LT10
Or if you want info on tuning a microtech
Aaron

vlad01 - April 15th, 2013 at 09:30 PM

I have Delco 808. bunch of aussie enthusiast created upgrades, tunes and software.

Nothing beats asking the guys who created the electronic and software. :tu:

Can also be used to control some auto transmissions. A fair few people have migrated over from haltec to delco.

MS is also a good one and apparently one of the best and easiest to use.

psimitar - April 16th, 2013 at 06:15 PM

Yea, MegaSquirt reads as easy to tune and heaps of online info for it. Also the cheapest complete control unit I've seen so far and with freeware self tuner you can pretty much drive the vehicle to tune the ECU maps unsing the ECU wideband to correct AFR.

Looking forward to doing mine :)

matberry - April 16th, 2013 at 07:10 PM

I've heard good things about MS but not seen or used any personally. I've done some CB systems, 1/2 a dozen or more Haltech's and am presently working on a US SDS (Simple Digital Systems that Raby used to promote)

psimitar - April 16th, 2013 at 08:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by matberry
I've heard good things about MS but not seen or used any personally. I've done some CB systems, 1/2 a dozen or more Haltech's and am presently working on a US SDS (Simple Digital Systems that Raby used to promote)


yup, been doing me research for the last few years on MS and for capability and cost I can't see why to go for more expensive systems. Only downside is not getting a nice cast alloy ECU housing :)

vlad01 - April 16th, 2013 at 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by psimitar
Yea, MegaSquirt reads as easy to tune and heaps of online info for it. Also the cheapest complete control unit I've seen so far and with freeware self tuner you can pretty much drive the vehicle to tune the ECU maps unsing the ECU wideband to correct AFR.

Looking forward to doing mine :)


about 300 or so aren't they?

My ECU also has a self learning VE mode too, real time tuning and logging. Cost 220 all up and I had most parts laying around already.

New programmable knock sensor and universal ignition module coming soon as well.

:yes:

vlad01 - April 16th, 2013 at 10:27 PM

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/vladk01/IMG_0212.jpg

:starhit:

psimitar - April 17th, 2013 at 12:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by vlad01
Quote:
Originally posted by psimitar
Yea, MegaSquirt reads as easy to tune and heaps of online info for it. Also the cheapest complete control unit I've seen so far and with freeware self tuner you can pretty much drive the vehicle to tune the ECU maps unsing the ECU wideband to correct AFR.

Looking forward to doing mine :)


about 300 or so aren't they?

My ECU also has a self learning VE mode too, real time tuning and logging. Cost 220 all up and I had most parts laying around already.

New programmable knock sensor and universal ignition module coming soon as well.

:yes:


So it's a Holden ECU that's been hacked? Just had a quick squiz and the MS seems to have more straight forward info to read and a nice GUI to programme the ECU.

Still it's a nice cheap option :)

Thing I like about the MS is they can run so many OEM engines using the OEM sensors and even has knock input and onboard 1 bar MAP sensor.

vlad01 - April 17th, 2013 at 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by psimitar
Quote:
Originally posted by vlad01
Quote:
Originally posted by psimitar
Yea, MegaSquirt reads as easy to tune and heaps of online info for it. Also the cheapest complete control unit I've seen so far and with freeware self tuner you can pretty much drive the vehicle to tune the ECU maps unsing the ECU wideband to correct AFR.

Looking forward to doing mine :)


about 300 or so aren't they?

My ECU also has a self learning VE mode too, real time tuning and logging. Cost 220 all up and I had most parts laying around already.

New programmable knock sensor and universal ignition module coming soon as well.

:yes:


So it's a Holden ECU that's been hacked? Just had a quick squiz and the MS seems to have more straight forward info to read and a nice GUI to programme the ECU.

Still it's a nice cheap option :)

Thing I like about the MS is they can run so many OEM engines using the OEM sensors and even has knock input and onboard 1 bar MAP sensor.


Yes its a hacked Delco 808, out of a holden but also seen in many other GM, some Nissan and opel,vauxal etc...

new development are allowing OEM sensors to be used, some already supported out of the wreckers/ebay

They feature now few flexible A/D input and output fully programmable to run your own devices and sensors.

psimitar - April 17th, 2013 at 11:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by vlad01

Yes its a hacked Delco 808, out of a holden but also seen in many other GM, some Nissan and opel,vauxal etc...

new development are allowing OEM sensors to be used, some already supported out of the wreckers/ebay

They feature now few flexible A/D input and output fully programmable to run your own devices and sensors.


How easy is it to programme? Done as assembly or statement list or is the software GUI based?

vlad01 - April 18th, 2013 at 12:00 AM

have a look, bit of everything really, depends on which path you take.

http://delcohacking.net/forums/index.php 

not a lot done of VW here so it would be great to see some more done.

few bus and manx done but with none vw engines

psimitar - April 18th, 2013 at 07:24 PM

Hmm, interesting but think I will stick with the MS. The software GUI seems better and download doesn't need compiling into a bin file.

vlad01 - April 19th, 2013 at 08:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by psimitar
Hmm, interesting but think I will stick with the MS. The software GUI seems better and download doesn't need compiling into a bin file.


thats only if you are flashing the EPROM with a programer. if you use the real time setup it works just like MS, just download the apropriate user made files and tune on top of them.

I found this heaps easier to understand than MS and one of the reason I went with it, I was originally going to convert mine to MS.

I suppose it depends on your way of learning and experience. I have a strong electronics background and have done micro controller programing before so this seems easy to pick up. But I am also a PC guru but lack on the software side so naturally I find gui based stuff confusing sometimes and get lost easy.


still the MS is a good choice, heaps more advanced, easier and flexible than the others like motec and haltech and a like.

psimitar - April 20th, 2013 at 12:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by vlad01
Quote:
Originally posted by psimitar
Hmm, interesting but think I will stick with the MS. The software GUI seems better and download doesn't need compiling into a bin file.


thats only if you are flashing the EPROM with a programer. if you use the real time setup it works just like MS, just download the apropriate user made files and tune on top of them.

I found this heaps easier to understand than MS and one of the reason I went with it, I was originally going to convert mine to MS.

I suppose it depends on your way of learning and experience. I have a strong electronics background and have done micro controller programing before so this seems easy to pick up. But I am also a PC guru but lack on the software side so naturally I find gui based stuff confusing sometimes and get lost easy.


still the MS is a good choice, heaps more advanced, easier and flexible than the others like motec and haltech and a like.


I'm an electronic and electrical engineer so have done my fair share of assembly coding.
I was being a bit lazy looking at the Delco stuff but seemed the programming is having to change some form of binary language to make it work the way you want. S'pose once you get a handle on the lingo it gets easier but the MS has good technical guide for the software and the GUI is pretty descriptive for each field to programme.

Huffypilot - April 23rd, 2013 at 06:21 AM

Well definatley no turning back now Ive taken another step to injecting this Manx.This mission has to succeed as Im risking my manhood when my wife see's the next credit card statement..

I ordered some throttle bodies and injectors. They should arrive within a couple of weeks but it will be weeks before I get a chance to work on the buggy so no pics in the short term. I'll probably just hold them a while..:love:

Debating what to do for a fuel system. Ultimatley I would like a larger aluminium tank with internal baffles ,pump etc.
But for now I have a Tee piece to screw in to the tank, like the ones supplied in the CB EFI kit. Is a surge tank really required ?

Still havent decided what to do with the computer.I followed up on MS from your replies but I think it is going to be to difficult and time consuming to implement with my limited knowledge and free time. The new MS3 however looks like it is ready out of the box but its out of my price range. Either way I guess 20bkombi/Aaron - I'll be in touch soon ..

Wish me luck :D

psimitar - April 23rd, 2013 at 06:33 PM

For your engine I'd say just the MS2 will be more than enough and is far cheaper than the MS3.

Gives you twin injector firing and twin spark firing. MS3 is only useful if you wish to use multi spark system i.e. coilpack on each spark plug or want to go sequential injectors for lower emissions and better MPG. Bit more power there too :)