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Type 3 rear wheel bearings

tweety - September 20th, 2013 at 04:46 PM

About 10 weeks ago my engineer replaced a rear wheel bearing. Torqued it up to the specs from memory over 200 lbs even near 300. whatever it was.

The swing arm is Panther custom one. I had a new axle on hand as well as the new bearings. Today I had my Cv boot repalced and my mechanic inforemd me that there is slop in the wheels bearing. couple of mm's.

Why would this occur? Whenever I've had one replace dits lasted 10 years or more. What would cause this?

Thanks

vwo60 - September 20th, 2013 at 08:51 PM

The wheel bearing could have been a cheap and nasty one or it was installed incorrectly and damaged during the process, what is the layout of the trailing and what is the bearing configuration, does it use a cartridge bearing , what was the brand of the bearing .

68AutoBug - September 20th, 2013 at 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tweety
About 10 weeks ago my engineer replaced a rear wheel bearing. Torqued it up to the specs from memory over 200 lbs even near 300. whatever it was.

The swing arm is Panther custom one. I had a new axle on hand as well as the new bearings. Today I had my Cv boot repalced and my mechanic inforemd me that there is slop in the wheels bearing. couple of mm's.

Why would this occur? Whenever I've had one replace dits lasted 10 years or more. What would cause this?

Thanks

If its an IRS rear end similar to a beetles, there is a spacer between the bearings, which causes the problem of play over time... [slop] from what I have read..
a mechanic who did My rego check a couple of years ago mentioned it.. naturally it wasn't a couple of mms.... even if measured at the top of the tyres..
Ask your Mechanic if He uses Lithium based Moly grease -[ a Blackish grease] as per VW manuals.. or the green clay based grease which I wouldn't use on a push bike.. ? The lithium based Moly grease WILL make CV Joints and bearings last a very long time... but they need to be packed fully too.. which is quite messy with lithium based grease..

apart from that, the most important thing is the brand of the bearings... also if the correct high load bearing is used, as many people just use two cheap ball bearings as they are much much cheaper than the expensive roller bearing used on the outside..
also the inner ball bearing which [like a 6206C3 or 6306C3] should have no seals on it as there is only a very small amount of green grease inside those.. and filled with lithium based MOLY grease.. it also needs to be a C3 bearing.. The original outer bearing is expensive like an NU206 or NU306 and also needs to be well packed with lithium grease.. The rear axle nut torque is 217 ft lbs..
Now how You are going to find any of this information out..
I don't know....

I know that I have cleaned and refilled My original Bearings and CV Joints with Lithium based Moly grease back about 2003 in My 68 semi auto Beetle that has the CV Joint rear end... I also know they will last for a very long time due to the lubrication...
I can only suggest You ask for the 2 old bearings He is going to replace to check what bearings were used and what grease was used.. CV joint boots usually show surface cracks long before they actually rip apart.. I replaced two of mine when they first showed signs of cracking...

Best of Luck

Lee

1303Steve - September 20th, 2013 at 11:04 PM

Hi

If your trailing arms are anything like VW ones they can flog out which will give you slop in the vertical, you can also get oversize circlips to remove in & out movement.

Steve

tweety - September 21st, 2013 at 09:12 AM

Thanks guys. I do know that a very good engineer/mechanic did the other side LHS a few mobnths ago. We got a bearing kit supplied by Panther trikes. The kit included a new axle, two bearings and two journals. The journals were crap in that they were undersize. He made up two new ones on a lathe.

So I had a second kit ready to do the other side RHS- the side that has slop in it now. But at that time (June 2013) there was no slop and no problem detected. So we left it.

4 weeks later I'm getting the trike frame strengthened at another engineering place and they said the wheel bearing RHS had slop in it. So then I supplied the kit. They only used the bearings and the journals in that kit, didnt use the new axle.

Which poses a few question. Firsltly I suspect they didnt realise like the first engineer (who seemed real thorough) that the journals were too small. I think I'll have to return to the first engineer to get it done correctly.

I dont know the bearing make or details. The swing arms are alloy custom box section Panther trikes exclusive.

Thanks fellas for your replies.

vwo60 - September 21st, 2013 at 10:31 AM

It is very hard to comment if we cannot see the type of bearing configuration, when you talk about journals and as a machinist I think about bushes not ball or roller bearings, as to the fact they were machined seams strange, any photos of your set up.

tweety - September 22nd, 2013 at 08:16 PM

No pics yet VW060. But the guy that did the bearings a few weeks ago in that wheel has offered to pull it all apart again and fix it. good. I have a new axle too. in 2-3 weeks he will get the trike and I'll be there to watch. will take pics then too. regards. Tony

empi - September 22nd, 2013 at 08:37 PM

check to see if the bearing housing has a 311 part number

vwo60 - September 23rd, 2013 at 08:33 PM

Does it have type three rear wheel bearings?.

tweety - October 8th, 2013 at 06:01 PM

it is modelled on type 3 axles. Panther however make their own swing arms from alloy box section.

Here is a kit I have from Panther ready if required by the engineer next week. The bearings are roller type Nachi 6206C3 and NU206EG C3. same as you advised 68autobug. :cool:

Interesting about the thicker circlip. anyway will be present when he dismantles it all. and will emntion the moly lithium grease. might be a greasy version of the pills I used to swallow. lol

empi - October 9th, 2013 at 10:52 AM

The bit that holds the bearing into the axle housing what part number does it have?? 111 or 113 is beetle 311 is type 3 the housing are very slightly different and cause the issue u are experiencing.

HappyDaze - October 9th, 2013 at 12:02 PM

Use good quality wheel bearing grease......NOT moly. Moly tends to cause the balls to 'skid', rather than roll [nothing worse]. :lol:

tweety - October 10th, 2013 at 08:43 PM

thanks guys. will be getting it done tomorrow - Friday. will rpint this out and use it.

vlad01 - October 10th, 2013 at 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by empi
The bit that holds the bearing into the axle housing what part number does it have?? 111 or 113 is beetle 311 is type 3 the housing are very slightly different and cause the issue u are experiencing.

those gaskets as well.

Type 3 don't have them and that would cause the retainer to not retain the bearing properly and that even if its a IRS retainer for type 3 as Empi says ^

vlad01 - October 10th, 2013 at 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HappyDaze
Use good quality wheel bearing grease......NOT moly. Moly tends to cause the balls to 'skid', rather than roll [nothing worse]. :lol:

too right, moly is only for slow moving bearing or bushes. like suspension bushes, U joints and CVs etc...

tweety - October 11th, 2013 at 03:51 PM

took tweety trike to the engineers. engineer took it apart. when he began he noticed the axle nut loose. the bearings were cool to touch even after 50kms. We had those spare bearings, seals and avle but after an assessment they werent needed. Torqued them up to 220lbs and no slop at all.

Maybe they settled in? All I know is it was nice to ride without the slop.

vlad01 - October 13th, 2013 at 09:44 AM

220 they can still come loose. A lot of the guys here do them up to 300 ft-lb

tweety - October 13th, 2013 at 02:36 PM

yeh, will take a note of that. and he did use wheel bearing grease. thanks for your replies guys.