here is a great video interview of Paul Yaw from Injector dynamics.

I thought it was great as it reflects the exact experiences I had in pursuit of injector data for precise tuning, which was impossible to come by. But thats changing now with guys like him.

I am sure for you you EFI masters would have had similar experiences.

Enjoy!

I've not had the chance to get into tuning at that level but was very shocked to hear that injector manufacturers don't give decent graduated flow graphs against pulse widths for a injector they sell.

How the hell can you know how much fuel you're getting at any engine speed?

Glad to see someone stepping on the big manufacturers toes

Well the truth is a lot of the aftermarket injector manufactures dont even know about the dynamic characteristics.

Also a lot of the aftermarket ECUs don't even have functions to account for non lineararities.

Since I been using OEM ECUs the data was quite apparent that it was critical. Basically it was impossible to get constant tuning with external variations, mainly system voltage which in turn can be effected by ambient temps and heat soak on the charging system, as well as the battery itself.

I got a guy who is one of the founding members of our forum who has developed equipment and on going improvements to be able to generate that data.

It came in good time as one of the cars I was restoring wasn't ready to run until about a year after purchasing some small deka injectors.

I spend most of that time searching even just the flow rate with nothing. Also contacted heaps of injector service places with "err what?" "why you need that for? they'll work fine"

I joined a webinar yesterday from HP academy. Was really insightful on what goes on in the tuning industry.

They did a live tuning on the dyno. I realized now much easier it will be if I had one.

dyno is just useful for steady state tuning. basically it allows you to lock to and hold rpms while you work though the difference loads.

So in turn you can hold a cell in the map and tune it. Otherwise on the road the car will just accelerate and you move out of the cell. thats why data logging is so great for non dyno tuning. You just drive to all the different conditions you can and then analyze the data later and make large scale changes all at once.


The other thing a dyno is so useful for is measuring torque real time, so when doing the spark map or table you can each in each cell's spark advance until you reach peak cylinder pressure at 16-18º ATDC which is where peak torque is generated. . its very hard doing that without a dyno. The dyno can make loads that are very hard to get while driving on the road a piece of piss. You can still doing it to a ball park but you need a sensitive seat of pants.

or I just do launches with fixed rpm launch pulling to 100 on the same bit of road and then analyze the data later. I can judge from engine acceleration, wheel spin duration, manifold vacuum if my high load area spark curves are in the ball park or not and useful little bits of info like seeing that stock paper filter dont cut it at higher rpm and gear shift time. averaging 250-280ms on big heavy box and reconditioned tightness and heavy clutch

I'm thinking I might see if one of me homies be able to organize using a dyno to and tune on my own.

Cool. I'm really looking forward to playing with my NA EJ22 eventually. Gonna run Megasquirtbut if I can get better results with aftermarket ECUs with injector maps downloadable to them then may be tempted but anything other than Megasquirt is bloody expensive.

why dont you just run stock ECU? provided they been hacked enough though.

I personally been tempted to do a delco 808 conversion on a suby for shits and giggles because my home ground is the delco platform.

Would only cost me a 100 or few to do the conversion mainly bits for a custom wiring loom, but ECU would be 50 bucks max. And the fact it will do away from the suby ass about management system with something much more tunable, simpler and and more reliable. Not to mention off the self inexpensive GM sensors which are the same as MS, SDS and haltec typically use. On and decent self diagnostics going by the suby conversion threads on here the self diagnostics sound great!

Got the engine really cheap as just the engine with no ECU but not fussed as the whole daughter board tuning idea is crap and better going with aftermarket.

So Delco you say? Now are you meaning an OEM unit from Delco that can be easily reprogrammed? Not heard of aftermarket Delco ECU?

Yeah OEM Delco. Just requires some minor mods to allow real time tuning.

808 needs either a USB interface board or high speed serial data chip with use OBD1 type cable. And a drop in NVRAM (non volatile random access memory) module which replaces the memcal.

305 just the NVRAM and interface cable.

later ones with flash based just use interface cable. I forget which service number they are, I think they are from super charged VT? Not sure.



There is also programmable ignition modules and knock sensor boards that my guys have developed for the Delco.

There is a "flash tool" software plus have a dozen other software for other stuff.

Potable mini data logger been developed and made from scratch and for sale.

We use Tuner ProRT software (free to use full functioning, 30 bucks to buy) for the tuning and data logging. All the factory code is hacked and rewritten with extra features to aid tuning.

its weird as this little community has come about stuff that rivals all the after market gear and its virtually free, only the hardware costs and its relatively cheap.
yet no ones really heard of it. I suppose its probably because all the tuning shops out there use HP tuner, EFI live and the old Kalmaker which all are industry standard and licensing costs $$$

similar thing has been done with honda called hondata and nissan called nisstune. Those are pretty well known though with global use where delco stuff been developed here in oz based on aussie cars but do work on opel, vaxhual and american gm cars with similar ECUs and various nissans, daewoo, etc...

They are very adaptable to other engine so thats why I mentioned it and its easier than ever. Even seen a few dubs running a Delco system pinched from Camira as the dizzy virtually fit VWs.
Suby should be easier as its got a setup which can adapt to delco easy enough.

Some food for thought for ya anyway.

Wow, that's pretty cool. Where could you point me to website wise to check things over?

I was gonna go Megasquirt as it's been built from scratch by enthuisiasts yet is far more affordable than any of the Motec, Aldon, Haltech etc aftermarket brigade. If the Delco is gonna be so easy to adapt then could be the new front runner.

Modding the Delco wiring loom to suit the EJ22 is simple so long as there's a full pin out of the Delco ECU plug. Electronics has never scared me which is good as I have a degree in engineering the stuff

I don't get it. Those little Japanese men spent thousands of hours getting the maps and failsafes perfect for their engines and you want to put a different computer on there and start the maps from scratch? Subaru ECU's have a reputation of being fairly bulletproof and most are easily tuned with openecu or similar, free software. Is it really that hard to strip the excess wires out of a stock loom so that it's easily installed into a VW? It seems many people around the world do it.

Shits and giggles is cool though, hacking about is what gets most innovations started.

I don't get why knowing the flow rate or spray patterns down to the last micron is so important either - perhaps I am uneducated in this area.
It seems to me that the variations in fuel quality or air temp would move things around a bit too and outweigh any teeny differences from one injector to the other.
The ECU uses it's oxygen sensor(s) to adjust overall f/a ratio to get it close to stoichiometric or a bit leaner anyway. It would seem the laws of averages come into play here and the overall, shared result of 4 injectors, 4 spark plugs, 4 pistons, 4 sets of valves etc as a total unit work. Clearly it works pretty darn well for many car manufacturers around the world.

Actually characterizing the injectors in the ECU make fueling stable. I have seen first hand what happens when you either use tables wrong for the injectors or none at all, fueling can be out several AFR just from a drop in system voltage of 1v or increase for matter of fact.

I seen several guys going round and round in circles chasing ever changing AFR, heat soak and then after restarting the car would on one guys car run super lean, something like 17-19:1 and then slowly drop down to normal once it cooled. It was a simple as the dead time table was still stock for bosh 0 280 150 960 injectors but he was using something like 42Lb bosch. it was due to a voltage drop in the alternator from heat soak.

Was always fudging the inverse temp term table and the VE table. Once he got the data, imput=output with predictability.

Even the master who in our mob developed the data generation equipment and offered the service had somewhere unstable fueling because of this.

Anyway, its very importance, least to say.


As for closed loop and O2 sensor, they have a range in which the ECU allows them to self adjust, anything outside that the adjustment is just pegged at max value. Also these are only in 14.7 areas of the table so the ECU has no way of knowing whats happening under load and other areas besides 14.7. O2 sensors only work very small area around 14.7, unless a wideband.

Yeah I'm sure sure suby ecus are capable but knowing where to find the resources and bits to DIY is another question?

The thing I love about the Delcos is constant refinement and additions. New code update came out on Friday.
Got me all excited.

The over boost one sounds great. Also the dedicated baro was one request made by a guy who runs a delco in his gyro-copter lol. Perfect for suby power planes

"Have released 12P V112, the zip is in the first post of this thread. Flashtool V1.49 also released and adds support for this version.

The following code changes from V1.11 have been made...
- Added basic VT/VY Cluster Support. Use the Flashtool V1.49 or later and the ALDL Editor to setup
- Added Option to Always Use Default/Calculated MAP for experimental Alpha-N
- Force Open Loop Option
- Modified Boost Multiplier. Was previously only 100-200% for both 2 and 3 bar sensors
Auto selection for 2/3 bar MAP sensor to have 100-200% or 100-300% based on sensor type
- Added ignition dwell items to cal
- Added Code 48 for high boost pressure. Code 48 can optionally be used for over boost fuel cut.
- Added option to use dedicated baro sensor on pin b12. Code 32 added for fault detection

ALDL Changes
- Changed the injector PW term to one that does not change with single/double fire. The injector duty cycle calc works for both modes. NOTE: single fire is limited to 50% even though it reports higher when logged, this is hardware limited!"

Quote:

Originally posted by psimitar Wow, that's pretty cool. Where could you point me to website wise to check things over? I was gonna go Megasquirt as it's been built from scratch by enthuisiasts yet is far more affordable than any of the Motec, Aldon, Haltech etc aftermarket brigade. If the Delco is gonna be so easy to adapt then could be the new front runner. Modding the Delco wiring loom to suit the EJ22 is simple so long as there's a full pin out of the Delco ECU plug. Electronics has never scared me which is good as I have a degree in engineering the stuff

Awesome. Well once the 56 is back together and sold I can check this out. Cheers dude

no worries, if you do get into it, its great fun and addictive!

So what you're saying is you're sure the Subie ECU is capable of running a Subie engine and being tuned with some sort of software, but you haven't a clue where to look so you'll just make a Delco system work on it. And you'll build your own maps which by your own admission are very very important to get right because you could be chasing down unstable/little problems forever. p.s. good earths and power feeds fix 99.9% of EFI issues.

Ever thought of looking at a Subaru forum and seeing the thousands of pages covering open ECU tuning? How do you think people are getting 400kw at the wheels out of their Subies? Places like MRT have built an entire business on doing Flash tuning of Subies and fitting larger turbos.

I'm all for having a crack at doing projects but I think you're missing what's staring you in the face. Learn the Subie open ECU and it's done. Flash.

What Im saying is I am sure the hardware is capable, but in my many many hours spent researching on suby ECUs I havn't seen anything to suggest they are as well hacked as Delco ones are.

The other problem is, the early ECU seem to be very crude at best (hardware), while late ones look great hardware wise, I can't seen any support for them other than professional level which costs big $$

And as well as CAN bus, which seem to explain why virtually no one who is running EZ series standalone is using OEM, but aftermarket like Motec etc.. And believe me, I really tried to find someone who had done it without simulators coz I'd love me some sweet ass EZ engine. But anal retentiveness says no simulators for me coz I'd rather the code be modified to do without.


Where as the delco, especially the early ones really shine due to their powerful functionality ,simplicity, availability and all the hardware, software, know how and community are all consolidated into one site.

By the time I even find any info and the tools to do suby ECUs, I could do 10 delco conversions and have them all tuned up, and better than factory naturally.

From My point of view, its a no brainier. Also suby ECUs are not in my interest due to the likely low volume of them I'd deal with, In fact out of all the people I've ever know personally not one of them had a suby.

But end of the day its all about personal choice and to which one is personally suited better.

I agree with Vlad as during looking at tuning capability of the Subie ECU, plus the cost of a 2nd hand ECU compared to a MegaSquirt, the aftermarket ECU was the cheaper more flexible option.

If I didn't want to play with things then I'd have whacked an EJ ECU in there but with the amount of base maps available for engines these days running aftermarket gear the whole daughterboard etc didn't appeal to me.

And being individual is ha;f the fun anyhows

A quick search of the open ECU site (for example) sees these cars supported by free software, with maps all available :

US Domestic Market Vehicles currently supported by EcuFlash


Make

Model

Year(s)

Compatible OpenPort Interfaces

Init Connector Needed?

Subaru Impreza WRX 2001-2002 1.2 1.3S 1.3U 2.0 2001-2002
2003-2005 1.2 1.3S 1.3U 2.0 2003-2005
2006-2007 1.2 1.3S 1.3M 2.0
2008-2009 2.0
Impreza STi 2004-2007 1.2 1.3S 1.3M 1.3U 2.0
2008-2009 2.0
Impreza 2.5RS 2005 1.2 1.3S 1.3M 1.3U 2.0
Impreza 2.5i 2005-2006 1.2 1.3S 1.3M 1.3U 2.0
2007-2009 2.0
Forester 2.5 2005-2006 1.2 1.3S 1.3M 1.3U 2.0
2007-2009 2.0
Forester XT 2004-2006 1.2 1.3S 1.3M 1.3U 2.0
2007-2009 2.0
Tribeca 2006 1.2 1.3S 1.3M 1.3U 2.0
2007-2009 2.0
Legacy / Outback 2.5i / 3.0r 2005-2006 1.2 1.3S 1.3M 1.3U 2.0
2007-2009 2.0
Legacy GT / Outback XT 2004-2006 1.2 1.3S 1.3M 1.3U 2.0
2007-2009 2.0
Baja 2004-2006 1.2 1.3S 1.3M 1.3U 2.0

10 years worth of car models.

Let me know when you have your Delco system going...... :-)

Quote:

Originally posted by psimitar I agree with Vlad as during looking at tuning capability of the Subie ECU, plus the cost of a 2nd hand ECU compared to a MegaSquirt, the aftermarket ECU was the cheaper more flexible option. If I didn't want to play with things then I'd have whacked an EJ ECU in there but with the amount of base maps available for engines these days running aftermarket gear the whole daughterboard etc didn't appeal to me. And being individual is ha;f the fun anyhows

Yeah 10 years by doing a google search and copying and pasting the first thing that came up.
It was just a quick example of how easy it is, not an exhaustive list.

Picking up a Subie ECU, dash, BCM and keys for $200 tonight - more testing for us on the CANbus stuff over the next week.

Let's see this Delco system done...too much talk and theory on here :-)

Quote:

Originally posted by vlad01 Quote: Originally posted by psimitar I agree with Vlad as during looking at tuning capability of the Subie ECU, plus the cost of a 2nd hand ECU compared to a MegaSquirt, the aftermarket ECU was the cheaper more flexible option. If I didn't want to play with things then I'd have whacked an EJ ECU in there but with the amount of base maps available for engines these days running aftermarket gear the whole daughterboard etc didn't appeal to me. And being individual is ha;f the fun anyhows How much for 2nd hand suby one?

exactly!

I started out going into MS and ended up Delco and developing my own contributions in the process.

Plus the enormous amount of knowledge I have gained about the dynamics of engines has opened up a lot of possibilities for me and answered a lot of those urban myths on the way too.

Quote:

Originally posted by psimitar Quote: Originally posted by vlad01 Quote: Originally posted by psimitar I agree with Vlad as during looking at tuning capability of the Subie ECU, plus the cost of a 2nd hand ECU compared to a MegaSquirt, the aftermarket ECU was the cheaper more flexible option. If I didn't want to play with things then I'd have whacked an EJ ECU in there but with the amount of base maps available for engines these days running aftermarket gear the whole daughterboard etc didn't appeal to me. And being individual is ha;f the fun anyhows How much for 2nd hand suby one? Going back a few years when I inquired around Brissy breakers and those that had the ECU and loom wanted over $400. Back then could pick a Megasquirt up and loom for $500 so for an extra $100 I'd have tunning ability aswell. I'll check things out when I get a chance to see if things are any different now compared to back then but tunability of aftermarket stuff seemed easier than having to faff around with daughterboards.

Actually I get a lot of stuff from QLD and NSW, even SA over the years because VIC is the most expensive for cars and have the worst condition ones.

I've even bought engines from other states because delivered they were still half price and complete, not just long block like all the wreckers do here in Vic.

Every single car I own is from other states. I had one I got in Vic and now its heading to china as scrap. it was so dodged up it wasn't worth fixing so it went to scrape a month ago, replaced by a cheap mint one I got from QLD.

One bit of advice, never ever buy a car from Vic our RWC are the lowest and most dodgy in the country and no one bar the car enthusiasts get their cars serviced and our hash rust inducing winters and awful roads just trash the shit out of every car.

heard the QLDers joke about Vic RWC? yeah its got 4 wheels ! its road worthy!

So you'll pick up Delco stuff a bit cheaper than me. Probably around 20 bucks for an ECU. Also I think the guy who now supplies the upgrade/tuning hardware is in QLD and the guy who does the injector data and servicing is in Toowoomba. So more local support in a way.