Ok,
Looking for some info on type 4 motors. So any one who has, or is planning to re-build a type 4 motor (by your self or by a shop) I'm wondering why?
What I'm after is why you’re re-building, whether it's just tired, something has failed, or you just wanted to.
Please also give details of the history of the motor, whether it's on it's first/second/third re-build and approx distance travelled before re-building.
Should make for some interesting reading, as well as showing up any common weaknesses in the motor.

Oh, by this I'm refering to a long block, so nothing to do with fuel, or electrical system etc.

Cheers, Andy :thumb

Ok,
I'll kick off. Andy's CJ** motor (2L) was re-built by the PO, so no idea on the distance, but as the bus has done over 400,000km, so I'm guessing it's on it's first re-build and over 100,000km since re-build.
The motor was a little noisy in the bottom end when I got it, and has gotton worse in the over 40,000km I have done since getting him.
In addition to that, compression has always been OK, but in the last few months has lost compression in No 4 cyl (1-3 ~130psi, 4 ~110psi). As the valve clearance has always been stable I'm guessing it's due to rings/piston.
Andy :thumb

Andy, I wouldn't be too concerned about your compression, 110 isn't too bad. Being a VW motor, it will probably still run even with a compression of about 80. The bearings are a bit more of a concern though

I rebuilt my 1800 earlier this year due to a dropped valve seat. I have no idea of the mileage it has done, other than knowing that I've clocked it in the 2 years I've owned it. The previous owner said he had pulled it down and reassembled it with new heads after noting that it still had the honing marks in the cylinders.

When I pulled the motor down I discovered that the heads were cracked in every cylinder, the pistons & barrels were badly worn (ring end gap was 3.4mm :o), and the crank bearings were right on the .15 wear limit for end play. I'm more inclined to think that the previous owner honed the old cylinders and put on a set of second hand heads.

I ended up having the bottom end recoed professionally, then fit a Kolbenschmidt P&C set (.020" over), and reco heads from Richard at V-Force (nice job :thumb). I spent a little bit extra to have the pistons and bottom end balanced while it was at the shop - best thing I ever did. :thumb

The motor will now rev smoothly to 5500rpm (or more) without sounding like it is going to shake itself to bits, even though it begins to get a bit breathless at those revs due to the stock specs of the carbies/cam/heads. By comparison, before the rebuild it sounded like it was about to blow at anything much above 4000, and it wouldn't rev much beyond 4500rpm except in first. I definitely recommend you have the bottom end and pistons balanced. :thumb

KK,
Roughly how much should I be setting aside in my rebuild budget for bottom end balancing? Sounds like it's well worth it.

I was going to build a large displacement type 1 motor for my project,but came across a 2.7lt Type 4 from a single seat race buggy with Porsche cooling and 48mm Webers.I was told it was a good motor which had just had a rebuild with new JE forged 103 pistons.I tried to get it running on my engine stand,it would rev out really well,but had a real bad vibration at about 2000 revs.It had a really wild cam but it felt like something more serious.Did all the normal things-belt etc-so decided to bite the bullet and pull it down.What a shock- because of the cam with large lobe centres,they had to grind the guts out of the sides of the rods to clear the cam,and no ordinary show-hardly any of the big end bolt heads left on a couple of rods(only on one side of each rod)This is where the vibe was coming from.They had also ground out the webs around the cylinder openings in the case for the pistons to clear at BDC.Checked everything else and found all to be OK.Had an 82mm forged counterweighted crank (which miked up OK) and new forged 103 pistons.Both heads were good with a good port job and 48mm inlet and 38mm exhaust valves(had them stripped and cleaned up and fitted with new single heavy weight springs)Had to get another crankcase and have it bored for the 103's,but didn't need line boring.Got a new cam and lifters,a set of Total Seal rings,another set of conrods and new bearings of course.Had to lightly clearance the rods to clear the cam,but did both sides and had to clearance the case along the top at the join for the rods to clear.I had all the rotating parts crack tested and balanced(was about $500 from memory)I bought a Sharpbuilt Porsche fan kit(it had a FAT Performance kit on it and they sit too high for a Beetle body)and had to have the breather tower machined down 41mm and have the base plate welded in to support the fan base.It came with a 228mm flywheel which won't go into a type 1 box so got a Bus 215mm one and had a new heavy duty P/plate made up and got a 4 puck disc made up.Everthing went back together OK and finished about a year ago.Run the cam in on my engine stand and am real pleased with the way it roars when given the works.Had a new exuast made up using some Kombi extractors but couldn't get a small enough muffler in behind rear wheel,so have made up a stainless muffler similar to an original but haven't run it yet.I fitted the original Type 4 air deflectors under the barrels but found from a website in USA that they will cook a Type 4 if converted to upright cooling,they are using modified Type 1 pieces.I have just finished changing mine and changed the rocker studs from 7mm to 8mm ones from twin port heads at the same time.Had to drill out the rocker shafts and the saddles.Its ready to fire up again-hopefully some time this week

New muffler-have had the whole exhaust ceramic coated in matt black since these pics.

hi nbturbo,

been a while...hows things?
how did you go with your injection setup?

That engine looks great!!
Cheers

Good day Dino-yes its been a long while-everything is good. I have made everything but am not happy with this first manifold.(a pic b4 I welded in the injector pockets)The motor is ready-have the oil temp sensor in and in the muffler shot you may be just able to make out the O2 sensor fitting.Run a 10mm and 8mm line thru' the pan ready.Plan to run on the Webbers for now-just want to get the thing going.Still haven't painted the body yet-another hold up-picked up a steel slider sun roof from a wreck and want to graft it in b4 painting.

Im in the middle of a stock rebuild now, the reason being a kombination of the first 5 choices I think.


Arent you scared of running a beetle box with that engine? I've broken my kombi box on 2 litres.

Yes I am,but the trans was the first thing I had done and as I said I was going to do a big Type 1 and this thing came along later. The trans has had all the normal stuff done to it-Super diff with 4 spider gears,welded 3rd and 4th gears,steel forks and early type course tooth 3rd and 4th gears.I am still to convert the CV's to the larger Type 4 Kombi ones but have made up a new front Berg type trans mount and am using the Kombi rear engine hanger.When I did the IRS conversion,I seam welded the forks on the pan so hope it all stays together when it gets the treatment

WOW .... nice motor. What is it going to go in? An oval??

Anyway, we rebuilt Daisy the kombis motor as we were putting the car back on the road from sitting for 5 years. It had 175,000 on the speedo and i dont believe it had been rebuilt before.
On pull down, cam and cylinders were toast. Cam was definitely worn and the cylinders had a top ridge. We putin a new CB cam, new Kolbenschmidt P&C set, rebuilt heads with some work by Richard Holzl, bearings etc etc
Certainly goes nice now.
DOne about 15,000 so far.
All the worh was done by V Force with me helping.

Hey guy's,
Thanks for all the votes (keep 'em coming!!)
Looks like this confirms what we already know. Damn heads!!!

Oh, Col, the low pressure isn't the problem, it's that fact it's different to the rest. Makes for rough running.

Andy
:thumb

Yeah, it does, but if you've looked at the cost of new or even reco heads..... I've never been that fussy!

modulus, I'll get back to you with the cost of the balancing when I find the receipt.

I had the kombi motor reconditioned after who knows how many kms with POs. It had been done some time in the past b/c it didn't have the original case. Even though the parts were some of the most worn the reconditioner had seen in a running motor, it was still running ok, just going through a fair bit of oil!

The only thing I'd add is that I read someone saying that you should check/reco the peripheral bits (carbs, dizzie, starter, alternator, etc) when you reco the motor. Sounds like a good idea and I'm slowly working my way through them starting with the dizzie which just revealed it's stuffed on the weekend! The starter solenoid has also been sticking so that's next on the list.

When i bought my bus she chirped like there was a canary in the engine bay. A mate who is experienced with VW engines said it was a head - or head gasket, anyway I pulled it out, decided i didn't want to piss around with carbs and points every second weekend, so I gave the engine to a mate and bought an EJ20.

no regrets here!!

If you aren't concerned with originality I reckon an EJ20/ej22/ej25 conversion can be done for around the cost of a full vw engine rebuild (i hear figures of around 4-6k for a quality type 4 engine rebuild is that right?).
(Conversion costs: 2.5k 1/2 cut, 600 adaptor, compliance plate 100-200, exhaust, wiring and crossmember variable depending on whether you do it or pay $$ for someone else to)


If someone was selling 16valve heads with roller rockers for VW engines (STD on suby) you guys would be cueing up round the block to get them right? Not to mention the sequential fuel injection control, multiple coils...


Sorry about changing the thread topic a bit but it is kinda related. When facing an expensive rebuild perhaps a conversion can be more attractive.

Kombicol

I hear what you're saying, and it might just make financial sense. But the heart and soul of a volkswagen is that oddball engine in the back. Wouldnt feel right for me.

I gotta admit vw engines sound very cool, but they dont call the subie motor the japanese volkswagon for nothing,

besides the water cooling the subie motor is very close to the dub engine in many ways, they are both horizontally opposed 4 bangers and they share the same firing order, which means they sound very similar (to me at least).

(Some trivia, - If you look in the workshop manuals the numerical firing order is differnt coz VW and subaru numbered the cylinders differently, but if you follow the cylinders in the order in which they fire - it is the same).

sorry once agin for continuing this railroad of andy's poll

I spent around $2300-$2400 for a 'quality' rebuild with everything stock but balanced. I had the bottom end done for me and did the rest myself, so I probably saved a few hundred dollars, but I can't imagine a stock rebuild would cost more than $3000. Of course, brand new heads may cost an extra thousand or so above the cost of my exchange reco's....

modulus, I still haven't found the receipt, but I was looking at it last week and I'm pretty sure the balancing (everything from fan to flywheel, big-ends to pistons) cost $165.

Thanks KK,
seems like good value.

Further to what Col has said. What I have been recommended by a few people, and what I plan to do is a full balance as Col described and 'CC'ing the heads so the compresion is identical in each cylinder. This make for nice even running.
I'm also looking into puting something like HPC coatings on the P&C, valves etc as Col has mentioned in the past. I hope to have an engine good for 3-400,000km!!
:thumb

Mine with no labour, has racked up just under $1200, but I already had a gasket kit, so maybe add another $100. That includes blasting/powder coating tinware, even oil and filter for the first change. No balancing though, and I am yet to buy spark plugs. Little bit of irony: I put an EJ20 into a notchback and got the gasket kit as payment.

In sydney a professional rebuild of a type 4 would unfortunately come close or even exceed $4K.

Getting the rods resized, everything that spins balanced and ccing makes a vw motor really smooth and last lots longer. Sounds a lot different too. Worth every cent I reckon.

$0.02c

kkk

doesnt conti engines in brisbane do a reco 2ltr for about $2k?
marcel