May seem like a strange thread title, but anway....

My living/working circumstances have recently changed and I now have to drive 30-40 minutes each way to and from work. And as a result I've been thinking dark thoughts of selling my bug.

I drive a '60 model bug, and all of the freeway driving I'm doing of late has made me a bit nervous of the safety issues of driving an early bug (steering column through the chest, crappy brakes, no seatbelts, bad handling etc.).


What can be done to improve the safety of my bug?

How much will these upgrades cost?

What have you guys and gals done to improve the safety of your bugs?

Pat.

[Edited on 19-4-2004 by Pat]

:sandrine
Yes that safety thought has come accross my mind many times too.
I own a 61 so I have the same issues too...no s/bealts, steering wheel in chest etc...yuk horrid thoughts
(Not a picture I want in my head!!!)
But my love of the ol girl & always taking it easy travelling,
& the joy & wonderfull happy moments I have with her,
more than make up for it.
I haven't done anything to upgrade safety but the usual things...always keep up maintence on her, check everything,
oil change, etc.
And most of all I tend to take it easy travelling as I am never in a race to get anywhere quickly.
Judy

I hear you Pat,i have the same issues witha 67 and its in good condition,mine is a different car now after a CAMBER COMPENSATER went on the rear and a big fat adjustable WHITELINE swaybar went on the front,im waiting now for some 6 inch rims being made for larger and stickier tyres.As for the steering wheel in the chest im with you on that one i always have 50m in front when i drive,gotta have a BUFFER.

Yeah it hasn't really worried me up until now.

I reckon I've had about 4 serious near misses in as many weeks. None my fault either. People get all crazy on the freeway.

These are all reasonable things to be thinking, but I agree with lugnuts - always drive defensively. Recognise that the car you drive does not have the worlds best brakes (however, if they are properly maintained, they should be perfectly adequate for dily driver usage) and drive to suit.

Having said that, I had the misfortune to rear end someone at about 40 odd kmh in the middle of the night in my 67 (long story and shared blame, but I've moved on since then.....). I bent my sports steering wheel, got whiplash, bruised chest from the seat belt. The fuel tank bent very badly, but did not spill a single drop.

I'm not sure if you can retro fit a collapsible column into an early bug ?

i think the best suggestion has already been said... its the way you drive... i drive with the attitude that people around me are lunatics and at any moment will do something really stupid and dangerous.... that way i am always on my toes and watchful of what people are doing and where they are. I was recently involved in an accident that proved me correct in my thinking.... i was following a guy who pulled over into the gutter without indicating... i slowed as i did not know what the hell he was doing... i almost came to a stop.. then i figured "ok.. he is actually stopping thanks for the indicator" i moved over to the right of him and started to accelerate.. then he hangs a u-turn in front of me... i slammed the brakes and smacked into the side of him.

So now i am always aware of the possibility that people will do the stupidist things on the road... i will soon have a 65 beetle to drive around in and i think that i will be even more cautious than i am now because it can't perform as well as the new cars i have.

I have a (harness) seatbelt and a 68 steering column in my Oval.... gives me a bit more of a chance, but not much. AT LEAST get seatbelts fitted, even if it means drilling holes in the B pillars and floor. And always drive like the next bloke is out to kill you. Because he/she is...
Or you could sell and get a S or L beetle. A bit better in a front-end crash - but not much better in any other. 'Safety' didn;t exist when beetles were designed. There are no intrusion bars and the seat mounts are very weak (rip off the floor), doors pop open, knees strike the hard dashboard and the seats collapse and... and... and... you get the idea...

I drive VERY defensibly, but I still find myself having close calls quite regularly.

So does the 68 column slot right in?

What can I do to improve the brakes?

What about installing lap-sash seatbelts?

[Edited on 19-4-2004 by Pat]

i hear you!
after writing off my 71 type 3 a couple of years ago.....i am often thinking about getting rid of the vws and going for a safe and newer daily driver.
ultimately i think i will have some kind of new little jap hatch thing as my daily d and a nice vw on club rego maybe, but not until i finsih studying...so a few years away yet.
until then, i limit my freeway driving.
i am looking at options for getting new/better seats and seatbelts.
i got a smaller racing steering wheel (last big ole steering wheel bruised my stomach and chipped my teeth in the last big crash).

but at least i know my mother's constant praying might be helping me out.....heheheh.........and as she says.............
when driving a relatively "minor" prang (in a new car with crumple zones, air bags etc etc, even though the car might be a right off, you will probably be uninjured) (in a vw.....you and the car are probably going to be seriously injured)
its a harsh way to view it, and others might not agree with me ------ but the serious accident i had in the type 3 probably wouldnt have resulted in sooooo many injuries if i ahd been in a new little hatch with decent seats and an airbag ......(gawd....i hope the lawyers dont see this one.....hmmmmm....maybei should edit it until the claim has been totally processed heheheheh)

anyway . just my thoughts.
no solution for you though ---- i still drive my vw everyday....and probably will continue to do so for the next few years.....but i do understand your concerns......just could you sacrifice all the style, pleasure and enjoyment of driving your vw just for the simple sake of safety??????? hhehehe.

having been in an L bug that rolled it at 80kph I can say they hold up pretty well in a crash. It drove home.

having been in a 60's bug and hitting a tree stump head on at 40kph, I can say it held up well too - it kept driving. The lap sash belts worked ok.

Having seen a commodore that hit a powerpole sideways at 40kph, I am suprised the passenger was ok. The whole car was bent.

The bugs aren't too bad. But I would definitely put seat belts in it. If it's not the prettiest car in the world you can bolt the lap-sash belts right through the pillars. I have seen it done. Best to take to an engineer about the best mounting method, as seat belt anchorage should be approved by an engineer. Vic roads website may have some info.

Not sure about how tricky the collapsable column will be. I guess the hole in the front firewall will need to be enlarged.

The column isn't a bolt-in due to the ignition switch/steering lock. My column went in by drilling a couple of new holes under the dash - steering splines etc else matched up


BajaWes - I must say I'm surprised you appear to perpetuate the old 'old cars are better than new cars in crashes cos they don't dent' myth... With thier non-existent secondary safety, metal dashes, paper-strength seat frames, front-mount fuel tanks etc etc VWs are fukken death traps. There is nothing else to it. I have seen photos of fatal head and internal injuries at speeds of less than 20km/h involving VWs. Lap-sash seatbelts do nothing to hold the upper body in place, increase the rate of headstrike between the head and dashboard and increase loading on the spine - and that's 'if' they are fitted properly! You survived your '80km/h' roll over through luck, not design. I hope you bought a lottery ticket!

However, I choose to take the risk, trust Karma, and enjoy mine...

[Edited on 19-4-2004 by VWCOOL]

As unpopular as it may be, I suggest that an early bug is not a good commuter car. In fact, I wouldn't use any early '60s car as a daily commuter, with 60-80 minutes exposure as you're doing. Reasons:

- they were not designed for survivability. You can add bits and pieces, but in a bad accident they will transmit major shock to the driver and passengers (with all due respect to Wes, he really knows that what he is describing in his preceding post is not the 'safety' of bugs versus commodores, but rather the extent to which they fail to absorb crash forces)

- you can drive defensively, but having a high daily exposure to the traffic just means that your risk of a major accident, whether your fault or not, is higher. There was a post a month or so ago about a VW which was hit by another car driven by an unlicenced teenager who was chroming...

- the brakes, handling, visibility etc. were designed back when traffic conditions were nothing like they are today

- a 60's bug is a very light car (around the 700 kg mark) and does not perform well (in common with all light cars less than about 900 kg) in certain types of accident, especially versus large, heavy 4WDs or commercial vehicles

- the wear and tear on your classic car is high in this sort of commuting

- the cost of servicing and petrol mount up very quickly when you're doing 60-80 minutes each day. Modern cars have much longer service intervals and much better fuel economy. By the sound of it, you might need to perform an oil change on your bug every eight weeks.

I don't know your economic circumstances or options, but you should be looking at options such as buying a '90s light car just for commuting; choose something unpopular like a Hyundai Excel; you can buy them for a song. They're still a bit too light for best safety, but they are streets ahead on all the other points above and over a two year period you might be better off economically (fuel, servicing) even barring a major accident.

In about 1985 I was driving carefully at 60 kph in Sydney when an overtaking car ran me off the road and I hit a light pole head-on at about 50 kph. The Audi I was driving was written off, the whole front crumpled and buckled to about 1 metre long, the engine shoved under the car, with the light pole in the centre of where the bonnet used to be. Both the front doors, opened without a squeak, the windscreen didn't break, nothing got squeezed in the footwells and I didn't even get bruised by the seatbelts. That's what you want a car to do in the worst circumstances.

hth

I did not once say old cars were safer than new cars.

I just listed my very personal experience.

The commodore was an example that if a modern car is hit in a way it isn't designed to be hit, then it doesn't fair too well. I've seen a friends beetle hit in the same place and it looked better.

I did say bugs aren't too bad. Which I agree with. They are better than an old EH holden. if a bug's brakes are in good condition it should be capable of stopping quite quickly. A lot of small modern hatches are pretty bad too you know. I feel safer in my Baja than I do in my girlfriends Mazda 121. I do have good seats, good seat belts, a collapsable steering column, sports steering, and 4 wheels disc brakes though...

I do agree that with the commuting suggested I would rather be in a small jap EFI hatch back. mainly for comfort and economy sake.

But then I ride a motorbike to work. My safety devices are good brakes, good handling, my skill as a rider, and proper riding gear. Hopefully that's enough. If not I'll know about it.

[Edited on 19-4-2004 by Baja Wes]

aaaah so many opinons......

i agree with modulus though..........his arguements make sense..

and not to dis you at all wes, and perhaps you didnt mean it the way i have interepted it --- but the way a car "looks" post crash has little to do with it. it is about how the body takes the impact i guess, and how much of that impact is transferred to occupants --- i would rather the car be a complete write off and banged up and a mess and still be able to walk away ....than the car "hold up" and the occupants take all the shock (as in whiplash etc) ---- i know wes you probably didnt mean that as you said "i dunno how the passenger survived" - but you know what i am trying to say.....?

and yeah, the wear and tear on a classic car just isnt good for it as a daily driver....

and yeah.......the conditions of todays roads are a lot different.......the speed.......other drivers etc etc.
i dunno how many times i have cursed a automatic drivers' lack of consideration as they just "brake" right in front of me....no consideration for the older geared cars and their slower reaction times........i dunno, i do feel safe in my car....but i dont like the attitudes of other drivers....i cant swerve with my nifty power steering the way they expect me to nor can i handle the stupid headlights of 4wds in my rear view.
ahh 4wds
they shouldnt be used on the urban roads the way that they are ---------- if there were less of them on the streets i would feel safer in my vw
(no offence at all to serious 4wd enthusiasts ---- just the stupid ppl who buy huge tanks to pick up their kids from school and feel safer.........i think they are incrediably inconsiderate both to the environment and to other drivers/users of the roads)

sorry ------
i am totally ranting huh? i had no idea i felt so strongly about this.......hmmm....please ignore me if i have offended anyone!
and wes, i dont disagree with you at all, i just doubt that many other drivers have the knowledge/skill on the roads that you probably do......!

i'm not offended.

yes I know the car is supposed to look mangled, and that is what saves you.

To clarify. The passenger seat of the commodore was about 1/2 it's normal width. Crumple zones are good until you hit something solid or hard enough for the crumple zone to include tha passenger compartment.

Just remember this;
* In a safety test a large 4wd scores bad when hitting a solid wall test, cos it doesn't crumple and gives the passenger whiplash.
* In a safety test a small hatch scores well when hitting a solid wall test, cos it crumples and absorbs the impact energy.
* In the real world, when a 4wd hits a small hatch, the small hatch is the 4wds crumple zone. The 4wd people get out unharmed, while the hatch people wait for the jaws of life to arrive. If they're lucky.

Just something to think about and you might get where I am coming from.

Are inertia reel seatbelts significantly better than the style seatbelts originally fitted in Beetles? My '74 has what looks like a reasonably good seatbelt which when I tighten up feels extremely snug, to the point where I feel safer than with modern seatbelts in my parent's car. Of course how I feel isn't really relevant, and a false sense of security is probably worse than no security at all.

As for brakes, I would imagine the lack of weight on the front would be far more of a problem than the quality of the brakes. I've managed to lock up my front wheels several times in the dry.

Hellbus Pete said........."The Kombi, well the column is to upright to worry as much about collapsible"

Kombi's are like modern Jap vans Pete, the first thing to go is the headlights, the second thing is your kneecaps :-)

I'd agree with the seatbelt people, I mean, if nothing else at least they hold you in the seat whilst cornering.......

Roger.

Properly adjusted standard seatbelts are at least as safe as, and possibly slightly safer than, inertia-reel seat belts. A properly adjusted belt is quite firm.

If the seat belt has previously been in an accident, replace it. Even without accident damage, seat belts do age; I've replaced three of my six in my '75 and will replace the rest this year.

hth

BajaWes and Co, I think we all agree crashing Beetles is a health hazard. I just feel your post could have been misunderstood. Maybe buy a later-model car for the commute - keep Dubby for the weekends.

UV light and fatigue (constant movement etc) kills seatbelts, without you knowing it. Klippan et all (manufacturers) recommend they be replaced at LEAST every ten years and the old ones destroyed. And NOT just because they want to sell you a new one...

"Convince me to keep my bug"

Fair enough - If you dont keep your bug then me an the boys are coming round to do your kneecaps.

nuff said ?

:P

If You people are trying to scare the pants off some of Us VW Beetle owners You are doing a good job...
As My Beetle is nearly finished, I have thought about driving to Sydney & in the Sydney traffic... Scares the hell out of Me!

Driving locally is OK... One of the main reasons I bought a 1968 Beetle is because of the collapsable steering column and seat belts... then disc brakes... and slightly stronger bumpers.... I also bought a laminated windscreen as I don't trust those safety glass windscreens... have had them break and go all over Me... many times...
Also You need good tyres on the front as they do most of the braking... and keep the rear brakes adjusted up too.
and 10 x St Christopher magnetic medals on the dash ,
Many VWs had them on the dash in the 60s...
Maybe they will work... whatever they are supposed to do!!

Lee

PS. I rolled a 62 Beetle in 1968 without seat belts and didn't get hurt... some people pushed it back on its wheels and away I went....

Fleur crashed the beetle today and the spare wheel seemed to absorb quite a bit of the impact.

But really without much of a chassis or crumple zones it did collapse pretty easily. I dunno whether I'd rather be in the kombi than a beetle in the same sized impacts.

The bullbar spreading load across the front and into the W chassis ends would have to help the kombi a bit.

Better to just not be in any smashes?

I have been thinking about it and Fleur and I have been in a rather large number of crashes and certainly higher than average. Some our fault some not.

I would not have a job if it was not for smashes though!

Hey Man
Just keep it! how could you even think of getting rid of her!
Rob...

I mate of mine rode super bikes all his life, like a maniac. He died in his sleep at 32. Havent you seen Final Destination? Boy when your numbers up, your numbers up and theres nothing you can do about it. we all go somewhere blissfull, from you and me to serial killers. So do one thing every day that scares you. Live, love and be happy, try not to hurt anyone along the way. So dont worry, drive safely and enjoy your auto love.

amen brother

I'm leaving the bit about "auto love" alone. :thumb

I ride a motorbike, that's great training for keeping the buffer zone around you, and drive a VW. I've been t-boned by a crazy woman flying through a red light in my previous 71 superbug, and the bug was written off, even though it looked okay afterwards. the magna that hit it looked more like a van afterwards and was written off too. I was NOT written off, and was bruised by the seatbelt and a bit of bouncing around, so I bought another 71 super and everything's been going pretty well. Maybe they're not the safest car on the road, but with all the over-engineering VW did way back then, I still feel a lot safer in the dub than in my brother's excel, despite these evil postings of doom and crumplezonelessness. keep it, drive it, love it and keep it away from big heavy things that want to bite you. Perhaps my maintenance is lax, but I find it quite cheap to own as a daily driver, with the added benefit that I'm familiar with its quirks and foibles and thusly steer clear of situations where it's going to be an issue...
Keep it.
if you're paranoid, you're probably going to do just fine anyway
Helbus, was that the newly painted beetle that Fleur crunched? Hope all is well. perhaps it's a sign that it wants to be a rat

I don't know about 60's bugs in particular, but I thought 70's bugs weren't too bad. VW did some crash testing way back when and things like the fuel tank where supposed to crumple and deform, absorbing the impact without rupturing. I'm sure I read an article about this in an old Aussie VW mag.

Obviously not a patch on modern days cars - but must be much better than the tin foil motoring of the 80's!!!

To answer the question- good shox, good tyres, well maintained brakes and potentially a camber compensator will all improve handling - it's not just for the track stars but also for stopping well and general handling. None of this has to be top of the line stuff - just in good condition.

Seat belts a must!!!! Webbing grabber type lap and diagonal. Inertia reel are a waste of time in a bug IN MY OPINION. I say this because the allow about 30cm of belt to come out when they lock. They lock in the middle of the spool and the webbing on the spool is then tightened from the force of the sudden stop. I think in general that you sit so close to the steering wheel in a bug that you may hit it before the belt stopped you.

Try this. Sit where you normally do- now pull thru 30cm more seat belt- and lean forward into it and see what you may hit- I think you may be horrified :o

I must admit to using old style fixed belts and make sure they are adjusted properly and check this on a regular basis. I'd still prefer a harness. And the age thing is important- but I'd like to see some tests first- I've seen old stuffed climbing ropes that still wouldn't break when thrashed- I imagine seat belts are probably much the same. Damage and such is an obvious replace though.

I do agree with Modulus though- older car more maintenance- which may be more of a hassle with high K's.

Hope this is of some help...

And I won't even get started on clowns who choose to drive 4x4's around town- wheres mee gun :P

Cheers
Jeremy

Safe in it's day, but it's 40 years old now, but still safer than a 4WD around a corner!!!

I recon a VW off road would be better than a 4WD, Baja Wes might have somthing to back that up?

I hate 4wd trucks !!!

hmmm maybe its another reason to fit a roll cage

I have a 63 bug, and the stock brakes are decent when they are in good condition and have been freshly bled and taken care of. The car doesnt weigh much so it can stop pretty quick.

I admit that in a side impact there is little to protect me. The front impact worries me because of the steering column, however im going to be fitting a late column soon, might be able to fit the late shaft in the early column? dunno.

If you want your bug to handle nicely, replace all the bushings with urethane, get a wheel alignment, renew all the front end, get a camber comp. if its Swing Axle. keep your tire pressure in check and you should be fine.