Please feel free to add your comments and knowledge
on this Supercharger discussion.
to start with we all "Know that turbos are better " so
we can leave that one for another discussion.
What we want to do is study the Supercharging of
VW engines.
-
boof2332 , you were wondering what my choice of Carby was
" well EFI is my choice " I'd love to follow the lead of the budget fuel
inj thread and do a Delco but for now I have a "nice little "
45 sidedraught Weber that I'm keen to see how it Sucks.
Cont'd...

I have been on the shoptalk forums, but not
for a while now.
I am familiar with that dude you mentioned in
UK. I have posted to him on the forum.
I love that set up in his Beetle, very Neat.
I like the fact that he is using a modern
blower with a bypass system.my only critism is that
it has an awkward flowing manifold.
-
Mine is an older blower, it is fairly good quality.
It is a Magnacharger, MC80. I was getting jealous
of the Way cheaper Jap , Toyota blowers
available nowdays secondhand.
But have realised that they are no where near as
efficient as the one I have.
Still very good value for money especially for low boost street
applications.
-
boof , would you share what set up you have in mind.?

[Edited on 28-5-2004 by OvalGlen]

Step 1. where to position the Supercharger?
-
1.. in front of the motor, with shaft drive through the fan
housing, makes the manifold reasonably short and well out of way of engine components.
dissadvantage - huge body work to fit blower where rear seat luggage
compartment is. Also would tend to draw the hot air from under the car, Shaft support a little difficult.
-
2. cut fan to Off road angled fan style and put all ducting
work back in fan shroud. Over lap blower over fan on right side so that blower is not too high up.
dissadvantage - fan design would be engineering marvel.
supporting the blower would be difficult because
it is hanging over one side, and manifold would be long
to get even length runs.
3. use very short blower like smaller Toyota for 1600.
and extend crank drive backward.
dissadvantage - excessive leverage on crank shaft
blower is small - ned to over run or for small eng.

O.K guys I hope this works.....
Here is Moggy's set up in the U.K 2.4 litre type 4 blow through injected, intercoooled witha m62 eaton.

A dick Landy blower in a street bug.

And another centre mounted front engine drag car.

Searoy in the states mentioned mounting it at the back and gaining drive off the fly wheel......a bit hard i rekon.

The 45 dcoe may sound simple although that is what most draw through systems in the states run with turbo's. They run a boost enrichment mod via vacuum to prevent leaning out and they make big power.

My original dream was to aquire a pair of small jap style or late vw blowersmounted either side on type 3 squat manifolds with a pair of down drafts like idfs on each side. They would sit on top and a v pulley off the crank would drive them.

Then there is using a centrifugal blower( bearing) either side in the same manner. This is just like a turbo but spun by the engine.......build it with tonnes of bottom end as the blower is exponential as revvs increase....thus two. Same v pulley set up..heaps cooler and stuff all drain to turn the babies.

Finally while looking at the dli set up with the holley 600, which I have been advised is easy also to enrich via boost, i though if the thing is going to stick out of the back then why can't it be my IDA's........Pierce manifolds in America were trialing an IDa adaptor plate where 2 ida's sit side by side on a holley 600 adaptor bolt pattern.....Cost is $215 us and $35 shipping.....Hard to get the fine enrichment happening.....just jet em up. Would look crazy do you think.

After ringing DLI and costing the kit at $4600 landed (with holley...-$495 without)with out paying duty(sneaky way) I decided to put it on hold.

Now here we are....it can be done cheap if we share thoughts and skills. I have spoken to Oval Glen about getting something happening.......The blowers are cheap, work out the best location for them with either dcoe, holley or efi ( cheap efi options form other cars???). Trial a few pulley and ratio options for specific needs and engines....and make them and give it a go.

I will research anything you give me and have contacted some pretty experienced guys overseas who are happy to assist in any ideas we may have...The specifics relating to sensors etc is where I am not well versed....I do know that there are roughly 4 types of blowers and there performance and tech advances are miles apart....we first need to identify a select few of available , applicaple, modern, efficient and AFFORDABLE makes and grab a couple and play around with location.

Sorry about the lenght of the post......
Those who have done it already....please share.

Good night,
Matt

Here are some pics....I hope they work.

[Edited on 4-6-2004 by boof2332]

[Edited on 4-6-2004 by boof2332]

Sorry about that picture.....let me have another go.

This is the only way..sorry

more...

another...

[Edited on 4-6-2004 by boof2332]

Some food for thought, there is a guy down here running a turbo mid engine trike. He had no where to put the alternator so he fabricated a drive out of the rear of the gearbox... needless to say he knows what he is doing, I was thinking - something like that maybe achievable - you would lose the rear parcel tray (no more grocery shopping !!), it may work out quite a stealth install that way.

rear 1/4 windows in lexan with nacelle (sp?) ducts feeding a 4 barrell. On manifold adaptors- recently I saw a 4 barrell manifold converted to run two side draughts - better for clearance.

I have to be quick as I'm on the way out.....I thought about the two side draughts..either together of either side on a twin set up...can face into each other with a common filter and cold air pipe feeding from somewhere else.....or depending on height could go through fire walll ir outwards into top of gaurds with piping attatched from the running bouards which would have intakes at the back at the gaurd.

be back soon
Matt

Matt, I dont think you will get satisfaction on your
2.3 L using the blower off the 1600 Toyota.
You will need something bigger.
I like your idea of setting something up
- simple - for the VW motor to enable the
average Modder to install a blower.
The 1600 one is easier because its smaller
but wont effectively boost much over 1776cc.
-
The blower that will boost up to 2.1 L is the 2 L
toyota blower, this becomes more difficult to
mount because it needs to overlap the fan housing.
If the blower is set up top as mine is then it will not
look like fitting in a standard Beetle eng compartment.
I will happily share my set up, but I doubt it will have
much appeal .Later.

While we are at it,
Is the 1600 Toyota supercharger the one off the 4AGE engines?
Is this short enough to fit in front of the fan shroud on an upright (1600) engine?
Anyone got (rough) dimensions?

Cheers,
Ali

Aparently the 4agze 1600 toyota blower doesnt like the draw through setup and thus has to have fuel injection. Here is another pic of the Dick Landy set up.....
Something like this with a carb ontop is what I want to do...just have to find the right blower. The commodore one is and eaton m90 and is too big...the m62 is the one we need off the slk merc. There are also heaps of blowers on ebay in the usa for mid size engines...we just need to look at one that is compact....

I was just wondering about the idea above regarding power takeoff from the rear of the engine area.
Was thinking if it would be possible to modify the gearbox bellhousing with an aperature (similar to the starter hole on the drivers side) that could be used as a mount for a supercharger with access to the flywheel. The supercharger would mount horizontally with its drive towards the rear of the car (picture your starter motor).
An appropriately sized pinion (just like an appropriate geared pulley) attached to the supercharger would then drive off the ring gear itself (again, picture starter motor). Obviously spin direction, is something that would have to be sorted out.
There would be more room available for the supercharger installation and access to cooler airflow (higher density charge). The engine bay would also be left looking relatively standard.
To expand the idea:
-A detachable bellhousing off a Bus gearbox would lend itself more appropriately to modification.
- A removeable panel in the rear parcel shelf base (only half required) would aid in access.
I know this is an open discussion area. Just throwing my 2 cents worth in. I'm not sure if this has already been done. I'm sure my thoughts are'nt unique.
Looking forward to some more input.

Cheers,
Ali :o

The gearbox drive had been briefly mentione, only as an idea from someone in the states that I read about.

The concept is good, although with all our blower ideas comes the cost of fabrication as no one has yet done bolt on kit except DLI.

Give it a go ALI, I'm sure there are plently of people who will help with the project...

Matt

This is good lateral thinking and I agree the location of the blower above the gearbox, Ali , I can see some issues:
- I just dont think that the fly wheel teeth would
last very long.
- Also the size of Cog would be Large.
....... my blower will run at approx 1.3 times the engine,
this would mean that the cog on the blower would need
to be 75% the size of the flywheel.
.
*Does any body know that Boris had an air conditioner
on a Type 4 Kombi - it was driven from somewhere other than the standard fan belt area, any one know.?
-

Has any one got one of those off road style fan shrouds.?
The one that has no take offs for air to the heater.
The one that is angled over with the fan in its standard position.
-
Do they have any internal ducting.?
-
I would imagine that they would allow a blower to over lap them
to keep it under the eng lid.

here's an idea that hasn't been discussed, and one I have considered in the past. cut out the rear parcel area in the beetle, and mount the supercharger there. Fairly stealth install.

Basically have a pulley at the front, driving a shaft going through the fan shroud and into the parcel area to the supercharger. Got all the room in the world then.

I have seen a similar thing done on the V6 MX6 (where my engine came front). The engine bay is very tight, so I have seen people run idler shafts and put the supercharger over the gearbox.



The engine belts and crank pulley are on the left, and the idler shaft runs across to the centrifugal supercharger on the right, over the gearbox.

centrifugal superchargers are excellent but very pricey.

Roots style is old skool, cheap and reliable, but inefficient and produces pulses at lower rpm.

Screw style are a more modern variation on the roots. More efficient, no pulsing. Only a little more expensive.

There are hundreds of jap superchargers, some even come with carbies mounted on top of them.

agree Wes.

saw this on the samba the other night....
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/49541.jpg 

[Edited on 5-9-2004 by bond]

Oh Matt, had major set back with the
Over Due blower project.
In an effort to move the project along,
I fixed up the blow off valve and pressure
tested the manifold - I discovered my
poor welding had resulted in some
pin hole leaks - am repairing them
but it has brought into question my whole
design (namely the thickness of the metal).
I now fear that even after I repair these holes
that more may appear after vibrational
stress are applied.

Hey glenn, where did you get your preasure testing done and how much did it cost, as Ive done most of the welding myself might be a good idea for my little project.

Cheers

This is way out of my league but would agree and a friend is considering it as well cutting out the rear luggage area and inverting it. Basically everything behind the back seat becomes the egine bay. Then your legal too as you have nothing mechanical in the car. You also maintain the structural integrity of the body.

With regards to cheap blowers... I found a couple of places in the states that said they would ship here and sell the eaton m45 and 62. Can land them for about $450....pretty damm cheap if you ask me...the same as the one shown in the blue beetle posted above. They are from the slk mercedes range.

With regards to the parcel tray....I cut mine out two weeks ago. As far as I know the main structual integrity is from the roof and its seams(gutter rails) Mine will be inverted, although I will be bolting a 15cm square plate in the inside of each wheel arch and running a piece of cubed steel(thick) between them which will then support the trapeeze bars coming up from each side of the gearbox.

My car was heavily modified to begin with so I had no problem cutting it up....here is a pic.
Would not do it to an original shell...ie an oval.

Matt

Mine is cut out, but inverting the stock piece you cut out doesn't really fit. It's not a perfect box back there you know. You are best to cut it out and fab up a new cover, and make it removeable.

That's what I did anyway. I have a rear subframe back there, and the body bolts to one of the subframe hoops under the rear window. An aluminum cover is also bolted to the subframe to enclosed the interior.

cut...


partly subframed


more subframing with lower seat belt anchors installed into the bar (all blue plated too - new seat belt anchorage points)


here you can see the 6mm plate below the rear window, which I put 4 bolts through into the rear hoop on the inside of the body. Stops any movement of the body


Still has the rear seat and stereo in it, so I haven't totally lost the space back there

Nice Wes,

I fitted the ej20t last week...picked up the sti intercooler today, so am off tonight to play with positioning. Will pull the motor tomorrow as it is clutchless and look at the wiring for the microtech.


Matt

Lowbug - sounds fancy doesnt it " pressure tested the
manifold ", just another way of saying " I sealed up
all the holes , connected some tubing to it - 1 to a pressure
guage and 2 to a compressor , then pumped it up watching the guage.
-
I will do yours for you if you like, it is not like it is dangerous at 20 lbs ( the point that mine started showing up the leaks).
-
-
-Boof , that is great , so just so I got this straight , you
have made it Mid Engined.?

Oh and Boof , I may be interested in
one of those Eaton blowers myself.
The m62 should do up to 2.3 L
with 20 Lbs Boost , dont you think?

[Edited on 18-9-2004 by OvalGlen]

No it is still rear mounted, the gearbox has just been moved foward two inches for handling and uses a berg hard mount near the front of the box.

I will get those sites for with the m62 and post them....The m62 is the go..there are heaps of different shapes and sizes depending on the car they came off....ie the holden 3.8 is an m62, but alot older and different to the one moggy uses in the pics above....which is of the 2.3 slk.

matt