was reading a manual the other day for a late kombi. it said the standard stroke of all the type4 motors (1.7, 1.8, 2L) was 66mm.

Is that correct?

if that's true, can you put 2L pots and pistons straight onto an 1800 block?

66mm is the 1700 and 1800, the 2 litre is 71mm

Dave is spot on with the crank sizes....


From http://www.tunacan.net/t4/tech/piston.htm  (see link for more info)

The 1700cc used a 90mm bore, 1800cc used a 93mm and the 2000cc(2.0L) used a 94mm bore. All of these pistons feature 24mm wrist pins and standard skirts. The cylinders are generally interchangable, but the top of the 1.7 cylinders is smaller than the 1.8/2.0 cylinders. So retrofitting a 93mm set of piston/cylinders to a 1.7 only requires flycutting the head to match the top of the 93mm cylinders.

The pistons were manufactured in various configurations. There were flat-top, dished and domed pistons for use the wide ranging applications of these engines. The domed pistons were used to increase the compression ratio in applications such as the 914 and the Euro spec. 411/412s. The dished pistons were used to decrease the compression ratio for use in the Transporter and in the 411/412 variants (station wagens). For the most part the high compression ratio was 8.6:1 (domed pistons) and the low compression was 7.3:1 (dished pistons).

If you are looking to build an engine for a Bus, your safest bet is to stick with the 2.0L bore of 94mm. The extra weight and unyielding aerodynamics make the engine work over time. You will need all of the extra cooling with the thicker cylinder walls. Save your money and get a longer stroke crankshaft to get the low RPM torque that your Bus needs.

Plan carefully if you are thinking about mixing and matching stock pistons, cylinders, connecting rods, and cranks. The wrong combination can give you too much deck height or move the piston out the top of the cylinder. For instance, installing 94mm piston/cylinder set on a 66mm cranks with stock rods will yield way too much deck height. Installing 90mm or 93mm pistons on a stock 2.0 bottom end will push the piston out the top of the cylinder.

Pete

If you check out the Type 4 store here
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/store/product.php?productid=16171&cat=...
Budget piston and cylinder kit 96mm for the 66mm crank- gives 1911cc.

Still not as cheap as a set of T1 P&C but much better than they used to be!

Cheers
Jeremy

I guess that the 1800 and 2L litre blocks are identical then, right?
Thinking more about something in the 2.6L capacity. would I need to use a stroker crank for that? I'd prefer not to use one though. VW cranks are best I reckon, I'd look into getting Stan to counterweight it maybe.

BTW, it's not for a kombi, wife hates them and besides, they need a much bigger engine. Like say a V6 or a 20Bt

I'd strongly suggest (if you haven't done so already) to have a good look and research through :

http://tunacan.net/t4/ 

http://www.shoptalkforums.com  in the type4rum and aircooledtechnology forum

http://www.germanlook.com/Forums  in the engine section

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com 

Going to 2.6 will be a hell of a task. Be prepared to outlay a lot of cash. I know someone on this forum has run 103mm p&c's with 71mm crank. Not sure how difficult it was or whether there were any head sealing issues. Make sure you do your research thats all

What setup do you have in ya rag top?

what is the capacity?

Have a look at this site dude there is heaps of cool stuff but no pistons and barrels the biggest i have seen is 105mm but thats huge them and a 82 mm crank takes the old type 4 out to 2840cc wild hay http://www.bergmannracing.com  he is in alot of usa mags and if only we could get them here that cheap everyone would have a wild motor just like in the states

Haven't heard good things about Bermann motors. Rather build one out here

they cant be that bad as penrose runs a 82mm full circle in his blue bug and what have you herd as i will be building a big type 4 soon

Ah thats interesting thanks mate and to true about being able to drive to the place that build your crank aleast you can take it back if it dont last i would say that bergman would be very reluctant to give you another if the first doesn't last

Mudbashing,
Hans Klaack (Klaack Motors) told me there's a place in OZ that does good VW stroker cranks.

Das,
Had a look at the DTM site. I'm sure Jake Raby builds good stuff but US$2.3K for Pistons? Pretty exy, that and he claims they are the only ones that will last. That's a pretty big claim and it's dependant on a whole swag of variables, not the least of them the driver.
Where did you get ya pistons from and what are they, forged or cast?

[Edited on 6-3-2005 by pete wood]

Yeah that is a bit over the top for pistons and he is not shy about making those sort of claims for things he endorses. Before they came along (I am assuming the nickies is what he is talking about), I'm sure he was singing the praises of whatever he used saying they were the only things that lasted! Don't get me wrong he knows his stuff, I priced a 2270 kit form from him way back and at US$4000 approx (from memory), it was a little too much.

I reused my original barrels and had them slightly clearanced for the 94.5mm pistons (which I think are cast and were sourced from Leon's motors I think (was a long time ago!)). Had them all balanced at Crankshaft Engineering here in Brissy.

Hay pete do you happen to have more contact info on this stroker crank man. And $4000 for pistons and barrels gees what are we building here a top fuel dragster or somthing i dont know what there worth but that seams way way out there and 2270cc is that 103mm bore?

I've been thinking, once you get up to 2.5l, the pistons would be around the same size as some popular V8s. Be worth looking into that, We could buy one set between a pair of us and build two motors. Lot's more to chose from too.

What do you guys think?

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy Dasdubber, didn't you do some cam work also? If so what grind did you get? Also note 1.8L and 2L head combustion chambers are disfferent, so 1.8L heads and 1.8L valves in a 2L head are not necessarily the same! (I have not run motors with both so can't compare).

Thanks dasdubber,
I'd be interested to know!
There where a lot of different stock ones (don't have specs at hand). But 1.8L, 2L solid lifters, 2L hydro lifters were all different. I think 1.8L gave highest lift and 2L solid/hydro were same lift but different profile from memory.
Good to know the exhaust guy wanted these specs!!
So other than carbs, dissy, exhaust you have a reasonably stock motor?
Should be fun in a bug :thumb
So when do we see it running

Yeah should be good fun Richard! Whenever that will be!! Hopefully before the May show at cleveland.

Pete, see this post for some interesting info...just some info on a 2.6L that was built:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2804 

Umm, yep, but they're pinto 4 cyl pistons.

I was thinking V8 pistons. I mean, anything round 5litres would have to be close. eg, Holden 308, Chev 307, Ford 289, 302 or late 5l, Chrysler 318. And I am sure there are more available too. They're just the most common ones.
Anyone know what size pistons these motors use?

For a 105mm we are looking for a 4.29inch bore.

As for barrels, We might even be able to hunt round for a common big aircooled twin (ie bike, like a harley or K series Bimmer) and have them modded to fit.

We don't have to do what the yanks do, Aussies figured out things their own way before the internet was invented. Most of the time we did it better. Let's just steal their best ideas.

This is way out my league, but I don't see motor bike barrels fitting, jap stuff are one piece (multi cylinders) and singles have allowance for cam drives etc.
K BMW is water cooled, R BMW (aluminium) would be much dearer than aftermarket VW barrels....

Matching V8 pistons means finding the right pin height otherwise things get all out of wack.

cool, just brain stroming that's all, but I was assuming you'd have to match the pistons anyway in dimension and etc. It just seems that the price of us Type 4 performance parts is astronomical and there's probably a common factory part for another car that is very similar and much cheaper.
That's the way people used to do it before we all got rich and stupid.

Have a look here
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=80099 

They talk about using Duetz cylinders (Diesel cylinders?) (and page 2)

but the Aussies have certainly come up with some very ingenious kit of their own, using commonly available parts, which is nicer than taking the "if I throw more money at it, it will work" approach

Cheers
Jeremy

that post is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about :thumb

I knew it had all come up before. Phil's the man!

http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=6876#pid52158 
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=5872#pid44602 
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=7123#pid54417 
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=3862#pid27547 
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=4911#pid36320 
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=3729#pid26105 

And plenty more if you want to search!!!

mm, Poor old Doug Pobjoy copped a hiding, however, he was preaching his father's 'no stroker' gospel so it was bound to happen.

In my experience 3 things kill motors, Bad tuning (& lack of maintanance), too much boost (turboes), or too many revs. If you build it carefully to begin with, tune it right and treat it with respect, most motors last forever, and that includes race motors.

Ok, I'll fess up now. I'm think about building a Type4 motor up for a squareback auto. I don't have a car or a motor yet, they're at least 18 months away. I like my buggy, but I'm sick of the wind noise and I want an aircooled motor next, maybe I'm getting old and sentimental.

Anyway, here's the idea, big cubes, low compression and 8-10pds of boost (turbo or blower?), intercooler and aftermarket EFI. I want a high torque, low revving cruiser that can turn tyres at 3500revs. Red line of 5500revs. Type3 auto tranny. I reckon the type4 is the go.

Any thoughts now?

Yes

Look up the shoptalk forums for moggy and then look for the yahoo group he started dealing with super chargers.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=77587&highlight= 

Moggy has a super charged T4, that hes toyed with for a long time.

I reckon super charger might be the better go, as they provide boost straight off the line with no lag hence lots of torque immediately.

This is all bench racing though as I only have the reading I've done (Forced Induction Performance Tuning, A. Graham Bell, and the web) to back it up. Hopefully some day I'll have some actual engine experience.

I'm also thinking Tubo or super charger, mostly because I like the idea of small and efficient- and not necessarily high revs.

You'll find a lot of discouragement on STF re forced induction on a T4, plenty of talk about difficulty sealing heads and the like. However the occasional European sticks his neck out and says he's succesfully tried it, unlike most of the Yanks that I guess have only talked about it!

Sounds like a fun project

Cheers
Jeremy