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Stoopid Valve Lubricant Question?!
fekkinell - January 18th, 2006 at 09:16 AM

I'm currently running Flashlube valve lubricant in my fuel... it helps but the van can still be a little smoky... i was talking to a guy with a similar kombi a few months ago and he said he runs a capful of 2stroke oil in his tank instead of auto-valve lube... is this a good idea or not?


akean1 - January 18th, 2006 at 11:12 AM

some people throw metho in there to clean the fuel system, my dad puts porridge in his radiator when it leaks, sketchy bastards put sawdust in noisy diffs to quiet them down (very temporarily), ladies stockings make good fanbelts. personaly id stick with flashlube, but hey whateve takes your fancy


volks67 - January 18th, 2006 at 07:15 PM

Always run additive in your fuel as it helps keep the valve guides and seal lubricated so in other words you are doing the same as lead did in super fuel.
Further normal two stroke oil cannot be used you have to use outboard two stroke oil as it has post ash in it which acts as the lubricant.
Personally i used Morey"s Upper cyclinder lubricant about 65mls to a full tank for the beetle. Apart from the Lubricating factor helps keep the fuel lines clean


Volkswagenboy - January 18th, 2006 at 07:23 PM

I use Flashlube in by 1600, I'd stick with it. Flashlube is only 1mL for every 1L, so is it the additive smoking or is there another reason?


toplessbug - January 18th, 2006 at 07:37 PM

dont bother with extra lubes in your fuel all you are doing is lowering the octane rating of the fuel which can lead to detonation.VW engines do not need it as they are built to run on standard fuel with no adds ..use the search function as this topic has been dealt with many times before:beer:beer:beer


barls - January 18th, 2006 at 07:44 PM

but the standard fuel they were designed for contained lead, which was used to to lubricate valve stems. the lead has since been removed and not replaced which can cause more wear and tear on engine. for the couple of bucks it costs to use its worth it IMHO


ACE_76 - January 18th, 2006 at 07:46 PM

Sawdust for the engine, banana peels for the diff., isn't it Akean? But how do you get banana peels through that little hole!?

Is the Kombi smokey due to oil burning or fuel? Oil is meant to cause blue-ish smoke, and fuel grey-to-black smoke. And if it blows a puff of smoke when you floor it it may be fuel (can be normal as it runs rich momentarily when floored), but trailing smoke while slowing down is oil burning due to worn valve guides, etc.

We've got several engines all happily running on various petrols from 91 to 98 octane depending on compression ratio, but none with any additives, and have had no problems at all. I'd consider using an "Upper Cylinder Lubricant" (but we're not as yet) but not a "Lead Replacement Additive". Metho in the fuel is an old 'trick' to remove moisture from the tank/lines.

[ Edited on 24-1-2006 by ACE_76 ]


VWCOOL - January 18th, 2006 at 07:53 PM

yep - when did USA go unleaded?!


toplessbug - January 18th, 2006 at 08:13 PM

Tetra Ethyl Lead was what was put into fuel in the good ole days, it served a number of purposes ,primarily as a knock stabilizer or octane enhancer if you like,secondly it lubricated valve stems in cast iron heads, these do not have valve guides they only have holes drilled thru the heads for the valve to wiggle up and down in ,VW on the other hand use phosphor bronze guides and are sufficently lubricated by splash fed oil and thirdly the T.E.L was a buffer between the same cast iron head and the valve seat,there was no seat pressed into the head and the valve seated directly on the cast and must have lubrication or they get what is called valve seat recession which means the valve gets dragged back into the head .VW have used almost since inception a specially hardened seat that does not require lubrication .:beer:beer:beer


1500S - January 18th, 2006 at 10:03 PM

Just to add on the "dryness" of ULP, what does one do if running cars on LPG to lubricate the valve stems?

Note: This is only to make owners think a bit as other vehicles with alloy heads and hardened seats similar to our VWs and running on LPG only, usually expect at least double the running distance than we normally expect our VW engines to last.

In "the good old days" you had won the lottery if you didn't have to rebuild the heads at between 110,000 and 130,000 km. Rarely they lasted more than 160,000 and by this stage the whole engine needed a complete re-build. The exhaust valves used in those early 40 HP and 1500 engines were commonly burned out at around 50,000 km and that was after keeping your eye on the clearances! Some of the problems may have been helped along with the early long rocker shaft studs stripping out of the head and the valves were only partly openned. This was cured by the use of short studs screwed into the boss to simulate the 36 hp style. Later heads as most will know were modified at the factory.

Most of the owners using ULP seem to suggest knocking the timing back a couple of degrees. By doing this, the 1500S (I tell a lie...it's actually a 1584! and 8.5:1) runs without aditives and dosen't seem to have any problems in two years running.

Maybe someone with a VW who has done considerable kms on straight ULP can report on the head condition. I only know that a well known make of car with 380,000km on it and running LPG is in better condition head wise than the same make with only 150,000km running petrol only. The LPG has no lubrication qualities at all.


fekkinell - January 20th, 2006 at 11:35 AM

hmm... its only smoky if ive been cruising gently down a hill for a while riding the engine... so yeah... maybe it is just a little worn out in there somewhere.


ACE_76 - January 20th, 2006 at 03:39 PM

If the car starts to trail smoke on the over-run, ie when backing off for a bit or going down a hill, it could mean worn valve guides (or stem seals on other than aircooled's). It might be from worn oil control rings, or due to the manifold vacuum sucking in oil from somewhere (eg automatic transmission control valve or breather system). We assume you mean an AirCooled Kombi.

If the smoke is from worn oil rings you can just use one thicker grade of oil. eg Change from 10W-40 to 15W-50. Or from 15W-50 to 20W-60, etc. depending on what you have been using. Or if that doesn't work you could add half a bottle of an 'oil fortifier' to the engine oil (eg Morey's, Bardahl, Smoke Stopper etc.) - these are the thick stickey polymer additives for really worn engines. I would not try those thickeners staright off as they have some disadvantages too. Try the higher viscosity oil first! Don't bother with the thin "oil stop leak" additives - they stop leaks only by swelling rubber seals.

If it's from valve guides or seals you might get some sealing in this area by using some types of Upper Cylinder Lubricants, with a "tacky" ingredient (polymer). These would include the sorts recommended to be sucked in to the manifold via a drip or direct injection system. (I don't use them myself). I think some of the treatments sold also contain Lead replacement additives. If it states that it's primary purpose is as a Lead replacement and "also acts as a U-C-Lube', it may not help.

I had a car once (watercooled) with worn oil control rings, but excellent compression and valve/seals etc. It had a fairly severe oil-drinking problem. I experimented with various oils, with and without the oil fortifiers and found the best combination was SAE 50 mono with one bottle of Bardahl (or similar). This was better than much thicker multigrade (HPR 50 at SAE 30W-70) even with 2 bottles of fortifier. (I measured how much topping up was required). But what works for one case may not for another. I think it's best to try to analyse the problem, try some 'fixes', and experiment till you can find the best. Good Luck!


fekkinell - January 21st, 2006 at 04:36 PM

Yeah its an aircooled 2lt with the twin solex carbies... Thanks so much for the advice. Will definitely give it a try. :)


tassupervee - January 21st, 2006 at 10:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by barls
but the standard fuel they were designed for contained lead, which was used to to lubricate valve stems. the lead has since been removed and not replaced which can cause more wear and tear on engine....


Nup.
Oil is used to lubricate valve stems.
TEL, apart from is previously mentioned role of controlling knock characteristics (and lead subs) are there to cushion valve faces and seats and reduce recession.

2 stroke oil eh? Bwaahahahahah, that old chestnut!
Pity its pretty much all burned up before it gets to the zorst valve face!
Some clowns even add deisel fuel as an "upper cylinder lube". Uh-huh!

Run with flashlube, run without. Does not make much difference to a dak dak.
Certainly cant hurt tho and any cushionong of the valve faces, despite hard setas and such clobber, isnt a bad thing.


fekkinell - January 22nd, 2006 at 12:22 PM

As a little experiment im running this tank without flashlube... lo and behold, all the sputtering, and poopy accelerator response has gone away. It's running like a champ... is there any way flashlube could be fouling something in there?


barls - January 22nd, 2006 at 12:39 PM

if you put in too much it can have those effects


tassupervee - January 22nd, 2006 at 03:41 PM

jeez, he'd have had to have a fair whack of the stuff in there tho to make it pop and fart.

Id lean toward a dose of cruddy fuel.

Happens occasionally.

It never made a scrap of difference to any of my rides if I added flashlube or not.

L8tr
E


ACE_76 - January 24th, 2006 at 11:20 AM

Yes it is possible that the the type of product you've added could have some negative effect. Some of the products described as "U/Cyl. Lubes" contain a dilute polymeric material, and this MAY partly block petrol filters/screens if you use a it a lot, or for a long time. This could cause erratic running and symptoms of sometimes running lean ('popping'). Gumming-up could occur anywhere in the system (including tank gauze, fuel pump gauze, carby gauze filters etc, where fitted). It may not be visible as it would be a clear soft goo. I have no idea if the specific additive you named has such a material or not. It does however contain a Lead Replacement additive which some people think is a worthwhile addition.

If you want to use U/Cyl lube that 'may' block filters, it should be done using a kit which sucks or injects it directly into the manifold. I considered this but decided against it as I didn't want a plastic bottle in my little engine compartment, or to drill holes in manifold etc. This sort of set-up should be very good for an older pre-ULP car however (Holden, Ford etc) that really CANNOT run on ULP without a LRP-replacement additive. Flashlube makes a "Flashlube Automatic Lubciator Kit" & Morey's make one I think, no doubt there are others. Should be stocked at the bigger auto-parts stores.

Many 'additives' to fuel (or oil) CAN have negative effects/tradeoffs. A few are relatively harmless. A few can be useful, like fuel system/injector cleaner.

[ Edited on 25-1-2006 by ACE_76 ]

[ Edited on 26-1-2006 by ACE_76 ]