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CAR NOT STARTING????
BU90FF - March 22nd, 2008 at 07:53 AM

Hey peoples.

My beetle was running no dramas, until i tried to start it yesterday and it was struggling to turn over, sounded like a flat battery, i changed the battery and same thing.

The starter was whining very slow then it stopped totally. now i get nothing when i turn the ignition.

any ideas?

Cheers Big Zee

greedy53 - March 22nd, 2008 at 12:21 PM

starter buggered or the relay

Mick058 - March 26th, 2008 at 02:07 PM

solonoid?

68AutoBug - March 26th, 2008 at 02:38 PM

Hi,

with the car out of gear
hand brake On

jack RHS of car up so You can fit under it

above RHS rear axle
next to rear of the engine is the starter motor

You will see a heavy cable going to the battery
and two large threads with Nuts on them..

using a heavy duty screwdriver
short the two threads out with the screwdriver..

if the engine turns over fast

it means Your solenoid is burnt out..
ie the solenoid terminals...

Be careful...

if you have the ignition turned on, the engine may start..

Lee

68AutoBug - March 26th, 2008 at 02:43 PM

Another thing You can do....

there is a small terminal on the starter motor...

short that small terminal to the large threaded terminal on the starter motor to
the terminal with the battery lead/cable attached...

if the engine turns over OK

it means the problem is the starter switch...

all VWs should have a hot start relay located near the battery or the starter motor...

so when you turn the key, You only turn the relay on..

the Relay then turns the solenoid ON...

most original key switches are now very worn or pitted inside...
and this causes Voltage drop to the solenoid...

Lee

donn - April 27th, 2008 at 03:04 PM

Seems I may have the same problem as BU9OFF, tried shorting out the two large terminals , the starter turned over nicely but did not engage with the ring gear, I started off thinking that the battery was RS but not realy sure now, freshly charged battery just won't turn the motor over so maybe the battery is RS after all, am I wrong in thinking that the starter should not have engaged, Lee advised to do this and said that if the motor turns over fast then the solonoid is burned out so does that mean in my case the solonoid is OK, think I'd be happier if it was just the battery.

General_Failure - April 27th, 2008 at 06:52 PM

Just out of curiosity, have you tried turning the motor by hand? Just to ensure there isn't something weird going on there.

When I was in QLD my van started doing that, until one day in town she couldn't quite crank the motor anymore. I knew it wasn't the battery so I ducked underneath and found the starter hanging ready to drop off. Although I'm sure that isn't your issue.

There is another issue that has plagued me. Dodgy battery leads and terminals. For some reason if my van's terminals aren't exactly right it'd be lucky to even get a solenoid click. This has spanned over a few batteries and more terminals than I want to remember.

edit: I just realised I didn't state my point. Make absolutely sure that all the high current gear involved in starting the motor is absolutely perfect, as these old things can get a little snarky.

Adsman - April 27th, 2008 at 10:20 PM

Quote:

This has spanned over a few batteries and more terminals than I want to remember.



Try using vasoline on the battery terminals and starter lugs as it helps to keep the air out and in turn slows corrosion from air and the miss-matched metals. ie. brass terminals on lead. Alternatively their are product that you can spray on after assembling the terminals to prevent the oxidisation.

Adsman - April 27th, 2008 at 10:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by donn
Seems I may have the same problem as BU9OFF, tried shorting out the two large terminals , the starter turned over nicely but did not engage with the ring gear, I started off thinking that the battery was RS but not realy sure now, freshly charged battery just won't turn the motor over so maybe the battery is RS after all, am I wrong in thinking that the starter should not have engaged, Lee advised to do this and said that if the motor turns over fast then the solonoid is burned out so does that mean in my case the solonoid is OK, think I'd be happier if it was just the battery.


The solenoid must recieve power for the ring gear to engage. To test. Take car out of gear, leave the ignition in the off position and jack it up so you can get to the starter. Using a piece of wire connect the 12v feed on the starter motor (large cable bolted on starter) to the signal terminal of the starter solenoid (terminal with push on wire). The motor should turn over normally. Does anyone have a picture to show what terminals are what? If not I can take one on Tuesday.

Some more info needed....
When you say that a freshly charged battery won't turn the motor over. Do you mean that the solenoid just clicks or the starter attempts to turn over or nothing at all? Also do your dash lights dimm or go out when trying to start the motor?

donn - April 28th, 2008 at 06:21 AM

Not sure about the lights but the starter tries to turn the motor but sounds just like a flat battery. When I charged the battery the charger indicated that it was fully charged, straight into the car and no result. My trouble is that as I had to find a place for the battery in the buggy it now fits into a very restricted spot and a standard battery won't fit to check it, and the leads are too short to get out to conect to another battery placed out of the battery spot. I'll take the existing battery to a battery shop today and see if they can tell me one way or the other if its cactus, buggers weren't open yesterday, damned inconsiderate I reckon.
Thanks for the advise to date
Don

General_Failure - April 28th, 2008 at 06:31 PM

Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but it has always seemed to me that a properly functioning electrical system does not create corrosion around the terminals.

Donn, just a slight question and a note. What sort of charger is it? I have found the sort with the three LEDs will report a full charge on a discharged battery. If it is left for an hour or so charging the green charged light will go out and the normal charging cycle will occur, and eventually the green LED will slowly fade into existence again.

donn - April 28th, 2008 at 09:01 PM

Charger has 4 lights, one for power to the charger, second showes the batery as flat, third shows the battery as "ok" and last flashes on and off to show fully charged. The brand is morey haigh model pd6a 12 volts 6 amp rms (whatever that means), according to the directions the charger can be left on without danger of overcharging. Should know tomorrow the results of the battery check to see if it is RS

Adsman - April 29th, 2008 at 01:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by General_Failure
Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but it has always seemed to me that a properly functioning electrical system does not create corrosion around the terminals.



As previously stated MISS-MATCHED METALS IE. BRASS AND LEAD will cause corrosion even on a perfect system.

Any how my comments were offered to help you out, you may choose to ignore them if you will. Just to qualify my comments I spent many years looking after industrial battery systems ie. telecom/telstra and the likes of automotive as well. Currently also running a chemical plant.....As stated above thats my opinion and its your choice to accept or reject it.

Adsman - April 29th, 2008 at 02:07 AM

Quote:

Donn, just a slight question and a note. What sort of charger is it? I have found the sort with the three LEDs will report a full charge on a discharged battery. If it is left for an hour or so charging the green charged light will go out and the normal charging cycle will occur, and eventually the green LED will slowly fade into existence again.


This will usually occur on batteries that have gone open circuit. (either negative terminal growth/depletion or cracked carrier plates) What's happening in the charger is simply that it reads full voltage across the terminals at almost no load. If the battery looses resistance than the battery charger will read the voltage being put in by the charger (all lights on) if the battery has normal resistance than it will read charging (some lights on). Cheap battery charger lights are not reliable. Its good to check with a volt meter. Also if you have a volt meter you can check your own battery condition. Simply place the volt meter across the battery terminals and crank the engine. If the voltage drop below 9.5 volts (standard battery) then its almost stuffed. A good battery should crank an engine and drop to only 10.5 volts. Basically this is what the battery company load testers do.

General_Failure - April 29th, 2008 at 08:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Adsman
Quote:
Originally posted by General_Failure
Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but it has always seemed to me that a properly functioning electrical system does not create corrosion around the terminals.



As previously stated MISS-MATCHED METALS IE. BRASS AND LEAD will cause corrosion even on a perfect system.

Any how my comments were offered to help you out, you may choose to ignore them if you will. Just to qualify my comments I spent many years looking after industrial battery systems ie. telecom/telstra and the likes of automotive as well. Currently also running a chemical plant.....As stated above thats my opinion and its your choice to accept or reject it.


Your opinion is perfectly valid and I was planning on doing what you said anyway. Just not at the moment while the van is 'dry docked' and requiring its terminals to be disconnected when not in use to avoid parasitic drain. Why do I chose not to? Because vaseline is slippery and the engine bay is full of pointy bits. But yes once it is on the road it'll be a different matter. I hopefully won't be yanking the terminals.

I realised what I said was a little off too. What I should have said was a malfunctioning charging system seems to generate more corrosion. I can only speculate that it is because there is a very rough balance maintained at the battery of incoming and outgoing current keeping migration/electrolysis between the lead and brass more in balance. Sort of like an AC current does.
But in circumstances like a battery with unusually low or high internal resistance, or a faulty charging circuit this uneasy balance is completely lost and the terminals foul much quicker.

A good example is the Falcon in the driveway. its regulator started to malfunction and began undercharging the battery. Terminal corrosion ran rampant to the point where I had to clean them daily. Popped in a new regulator and the corrosion almost entirely stopped forming.

Adsman - April 29th, 2008 at 09:49 AM

I would fully agree.

Another thing that ford falcons and other makes/models of cars for that matter, had changed was the engine earthing. Cant remember what model but they ended up putting on larger earth wire and even dual earth wires in some cases. From memory in falcon it was due to electrolysis being formed from the water pump and coolant. Particularly bad when the coolant concentration was low or imbalanced from filling up with town water. This not only effected the terminals but it prematurely ate out the top coolant pipe. (The one that is used as a sacrificial for the engine's protection.) And as you stated already it can be caused due charging circuit imbalance. A good example of this is a vehicle with small/poor earthing running a fridge that has been wired with a local earth ie. back to the chassis at the rear of the car. This can easily be overcome by running an earth from the battery and hey presto no more problem.

Sorry for going off topic a bit but its good info to know. Enough water talk back to aircooled.:yes:

donn - April 29th, 2008 at 09:36 PM

Well blokes, thanks for the help, on the way home I was thinking "probably wasted those fellas time", if so I appologise but reckon you blokes live for this sorta thing and I learned a load of stuff that I didn't need in the end (keep it stored away for latter). Turned out to be a shited batery after all, now I'm right for Sunday, all smiles here. Thanks again

General_Failure - April 30th, 2008 at 08:50 AM

Donn, keep an eye on the charge level of the battery for a while. If something else is playing up in the system it can take the battery with it. Easiest thing to do is just check it with a multimeter every so often, make sure it's being charged sufficiently. Wouldn't want you getting stuck in a battery battery replacement cycle. Believe me, it's expensive and not very fun.

donn - April 30th, 2008 at 10:17 AM

Expensive it is, this little baby cost me $230, I'll be taking your advise for sure.

NuZo - April 30th, 2008 at 10:37 AM

somethign similar happend to me a while back ...


i just got the car back from the mechanincs, stated fine, but after a while the generator light came on, and the car would slowly die... after it died... it would not start... i would have to wait 30mins to an hour b4 it would start agian.... i found out, it was the genereator leads earthing on the metal surrounding the genereator... all i did was list the wire off the metal and it was running sweet agian!

take a look at ur genereator leads.... if u have a gereator rofl...

Adsman - April 30th, 2008 at 10:39 AM

No worries mate. Best thing about forums is that all the info will be here for the next bloke. I know how many times has a 2am project needed an answer or a new idea.:tu:

Mick058 - April 30th, 2008 at 11:49 AM

Make sure your regulators hooked up right, it can over charge the battery and cook it. You should get around 14v of battery charge. Check that!

Adsman - April 30th, 2008 at 02:00 PM

Another thing to check for is earth leakage/shorting in your starter motor and alternator/generator. To check you will need a multimeter that reads amps with a scale of at least 5amps. To check turn everything in the car off and then you simply lift off the battery terminal, place the multimeter in series (between the terminal you removed and the battery). If you have a radio/clock etc it will read approx 1amp but if it reads a few amps then it will be worth check further.

FURTHER CHECKS IF NEEDED
To check the starter motor remove the positive lead being careful not to earth it out and once again place the multimeter in series. It should not read any current.

Similarly to check the alternator remove the positive lead being careful not to earth it out and once again place the multimeter in series. It should not read any current.

If you have a generator then the above can also be done using the positive charge wire to the battery. This will only check that the relay is disengaging not if the regulator is any good. Like wise with testing the generator itself. Most importantly as Mick058 said CHECK THE CHARGING VOLTAGE as overtime the regulators need adjusting/cleaning or replacing. Its probably best to seek further assistance if the regulator is faulty. Perhaps a local VW person can teach you how to repair and set them up.