I am hugely impressed by the ambitious development projects being undertaken by some AVD members; a quick troll through the "Tech Talk" section will show some terrific work on everything
from water-jacketed heads to big brakes and Kafer-cup bars. At the same time, as a software developer, I have also seen the success of open source software developpment projects where
teams of developers, co-ordinated by the wonders of the Internet, develop projects which match or better those of conventionally-organised software developers.

I believe that there is an opportunity for AVD to develop a reasonably-priced, high-performance EFI system for Type 1 motors as a joint, communal project. The result would be a fully-specified
implementation package for converting a Type 1 motor to EFI for street use. The rest of this document is intended as a discussion paper for such a project.

SCOPE: ELECTRONIC FUEL INJECTION FOR VW A/C TYPE I MOTORS
==================================================
The scope needs to be both broad enough to capture the interest of a large base of VW enthusiasts, yet simultaneously narrow enough to deliver an implementable product in a reasonable
time-frame. For these reasons I suggest that it should be:
- electronic FI to accomodate high-performance variants and to achieve better daily-driver drivability
- limited to Type I motors to get the largest interest base
- designed for street use i.e. high-performance means excellent driveability
- reasonably-priced, to appeal to the largest number of potential interested parties.

DELIVERABLES
===========
The project deliverables would include:
- parts specifications, drawings, AutoCAD
- supplier lists
- build instructions
- software such as fuel maps
and other such materials as to make the implementation of EFI achievable for all Type 1 engine owners, with or without the help of specialist suppliers.

COPYRIGHT
========
I believe that all material produced for the project should go under a copyright licence such as the GPL used for open software development, i.e. anyone contributing to the project should
sign up to their contribution being managed as open-source, in order to avoid tears further down the track.

This would not prevent commercial exploitation of the product, e.g.
- a VW business offering implementations of the AVD EFI system (for profit)
- a VW business offering parts of the AVD EFI for sale
- a VW business taking the AVD EFI project and extending it with prorietary, copyright material, to the extent that this is allowed under the GPL.
That is, the intent would not be to limit commercial opportunities, but to encourage them. Nevertheless, at any time any AVD member or other VW enthusiast could get a copy of the AVD EFI design
for no charge and build an EFI system based on it without incurring licence fees (but see COSTS below).

PROJECT STRUCTURE
================
The fact that the project would be a collaborative, open-source project does not mean that it would be anarchic or without structure.

A suitable structure would be designed and "work parcels" created within that structure, suitable to allocation to an individual or work-group.

An outline structure example follows:
Project Management
- Coordination
- Task description
- Task allocation
Hardware
- Manifolds
- Injectors
- Throttle Body
- AFM
- Fuel Feed
- Tank modifications
- Swirl pot
- Fuel pumps
- Fuel & return lines
- Pressure regulator
- Rail
- Distributor
Firmware
- ECU
- Sensors
- O2
- Crank position
- CHT
Software
- Maps
- Tuning & calibration
Documentation
- FAQs
- Construction manuals
- Tuning manuals
- Website
Fabrication
- Fabrication techniques
- Materials
- Supply sources
Testing & Tuning
- Dyno testing
- Road & track testing
- endurance testing

VARIANTS
=======
The project, rather than resisting variations, should encourage both offshoot projects and alternate core approaches.
The project does not necessarily need to actively support variants (there is likely to be plenty of work on the core project), but should welcome variants as strengthening and testing the core project's assumptions.
Variants that I can readily imagine are:
- Turbo version
- Race-spec. version
- Type IV variant
- alternate ECUs
- alternate injectors

MEMBER CONTRIBUTIONS
===================
As can be seen from the project structure, there is scope for individuals with a wide range of skills to contribute to the project. One risk is that the usual suspects (including people who are already doing similar,
individual projects) end up doing all the heavy lifting. This would, in my opinion, be far from optimal project structure. The project is not essentially about "who can build the slickest injector manifold?", but
rather "how can we make a reasonably-priced, high-performance AVD EFI system available to the maximum number of VW enthusiats?", a much more useful goal.

COSTS
=====
Obviously, a project such a this will incur some real costs (i.e. cost of materials, fabrication, dyno time etc.). Several options for offsetting these costs that come to mind are:
- individuals could choose to wear these costs as they will benefit from the overall project
- sponsorship of existing or new AVD business sponsors could be sought
- a licence fee for the AVD EFI deliverables could be charged
- any combination of the preceding three options

DISCUSSION
=========
As I said in the introduction, the proposal above is intended asa discussion paper. I don't have any vested interestes in this, indeed I don't even own a Type 1 motor! I would like to see this project take
on a life of its own and none of the concepts or details presented above should be considered as sacred cows.

I welcome your comments.

I think it is a great idea and would happily help out where possible.

By the time this is sorted I will be in a position where I can CNC cut stuff pretty easy and as such will happily provide those that participate in the project with very cheap / free template cuts to support the project during the development phase and after that for cost of materials under teh AVD Banner.

I am also happy to assist with writing some custom windows applications to support the tuning of a solution should it get that far. I like Pete don't even own a type 1 engine but all my Subaru's look after themselves and a guy has to tinker.

all to easy
1 get M.S--- open source & cheap http://www.msefi.com/index.php 
2 use cb manifold ends http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=321 
3 injectors go to ebay after reading the M.S manuals for sizing
4pump & reg --- bosch via ebay
the only part to consider is the adaption of a suitable T.B to the manifold that will connect to the manifold ends ,again it will depend on your application and engine displacement as well as intended use ,all outlined in the M.S manuals

this should be funny

no way everyones going to agree on several areas
ecu brand ?

manifold/t'bodie design

fuel rail/tank set up

ignitions

hmmm, i would be keen to pitch in, i am resourceful but no where near as advanced in my knowledge as other AVD members. In saying that, if you told me 'make this' i could get these things happening. The company i work for is involved in manufacturing and out sourcing, contacts are easy to come by.

I do agree with Brian though - these decisions could be interesting...

To keep costs down, I could help outsource it to India or China.

Are you looking at using an existing brand of ECU or developing an extire new one

I have already done the above on my 65 Orange Smooothie

Yeah - sounds interesting.

Looks like I'm the third software dev in the list, but I can at least say that I have a Type 1 engine in what's effectively a road-registered race car, and I'm keen to tinker !!!

sounds very interesting but i run t4 so will be keeping an eye on it.

Let's see if I can keep my normal prolixity down to a minimum...

Buggy Brad: That's great. I think it will be important for the average punter who doesn't have access to engineering facilities at work or via mates to be able to buy suitable fabricated parts to a standard and know that they'll work.

toplessbug: That approach looks great; the CB Performance manifolds are reasonably priced and of course the MegaSquirt is inexpensive. One thing that would be great for the project would be to have a continuously-available-current-advice i.e. at any point anyone could pick up the current advice, even though the project has not reached its final conclusion. Sounds like you have a good roadmap for that; would you like to flesh it out a bit more?

Brian: You're right that achieving consensus is probably the hardest management task in such a project; nevertheless, projects of this type but much more complex than this one have succeeded (think of Linux, Wikipedia etc.). One good thing is the choices are not between Good & Evil, Ford & Holden etc., it's a Volkswagen in the end... So would you like to contribute to the consensus management process of the project?

Mick058: Your contribution would be most welcome; don't worry about your knowledge level, we're all at different points. I could engrave my practical knowledge of building an EFI system on the head of a pin.

squizy: Sounds like you're putting your hand up to do the cost analysis for the project - something that's sorely needed. What are the major cost centres? What really drives the cost of such a project? I'm sure if you talk to some of the people on here who have done this or similar (like VW54), they'll help you get a really good picture of the costs together quickly.

VW54: It hadn't occured to me to develop an new ECU. Are the current crop too poorly featured or expensive? Are you still using the Microtech MTX8 on the Orange smoothie? Your project, with the documentation pulled together, would also provide another continuously-available-current-advice for people wanting to move forward quickly, plus the whole installation looks very professional from air-cleaner to fuel pump and, to my mind, fits very well with the philosophy of this project. I personally don't have a problem with having two or more sets of current advice.

Sides: There must be something about these projects which attracts software devs. I can't think of a better test harness than a road beetle which sees some trackwork, with an owner willing to tinker. I guess you're signing up as an early adopter?

barls: I also have a t4 in my Transporter (with carbs) do I'm interested in the eventual offshoot projects. Other than manifolds, maps and sensors, I imagine most of what applies to, say a 1776 t1 would apply, or could be scaled, to a t4. But don't just keep an eye on it; come on board!

Thanks to all for the input to date; there seems to be genuine interest in the concept. It's great that people have already put up their hands to be part of this at a practical level; we still need more AVD members to do the same even for very limited roles and regardless of experience.

hth

Well from others experience the Autronic appears to be the best as it has a self tunning program. So you fit it up with a basic program then take along to the guy with the laptop and software and go for a run

I am NO expert here but for the price of the ECU and dyno tuning costs as well it appears ( the Autronic ) to be VALUE for money especially when you have a pro dyno tunner perfect your car at x amount of dollars per hour

Yes i am still running the microteck MTX8 which is comparision to the later versioins are relatively cheaper to pick up S/H ebay etc etc for my project it was ideal although if i had to buy a new one i would go with the autronic self tune

Thanks for the kind words on my set up I tried to make as FACTORY looking as possible with out the clutter some others have

The car runs so smooth now NO flat spots just a little ruff for the first klm or so untill the heat sinks in

Mine was NOT an excerise in power out put more so a engine that would run on stock unleaded petrol and have a little more grunt and more efficient

the efificiency hasnt happened fuel economy is down but this would be due to the increase in capacity and my lead foot ( aint been caught to date ) The drivability of the car is WAY up so nice on a trip heaps of power in comparision to a stock 1500 engine and carby engines

Just my two cents in regards to this sort of project.
For this to work, a good project manager to co-ordinate, and to keep a focus in the right direction is essential.
This project manager is not 'the boss', he is a facilitator that ensures that the project's main goals are what is being worked towards. In regard to 'variations' they can be mini-projects with their own project team and manager.
He also can also act as mediation when disagreements occur (as they always do). Differences of opinion are actually beneficial, if ego and pride are kept at bay. This is because there is generally no 'right' or 'wrong' just perception. So what someone thinks is a good idea someone else will think is rubbish (for instance there will be people that think what i am saying is dribble)
Getting concensus is extremely hard to get and the more people that are involved the harder it is to get, so someone responsable for keeping focus on project goals rather than an individual's goal would be important.

Wow, this is something I have been waiting for. A bolt on EFI system here in Oz and at a reasonable cost (we all hope). Not sure if I can be much help, but am glad to offer my car as a test mule

As to sourcing parts from CB Performance etc, there will always be variances due to the Aussie dollar rating at the time of purchase. Maybe someone like George at Classic VeeDubs may be able to help due to his buying power from the large amount of shipping that he is continually doing.

Also, another small problem may be that anyone that's involved in the organisation of such a kit may live in many different parts of Australia. So this would make it hard for all to sit down and have a good old discussion about it.

Anyway, love the idea and if I can help please ask.

Merry Christmas, Kevin

depends on what you call cheap mine doing most my self labour wish and sourcing parts cost about $2500 without the computor

Also had lots of advice from others which helped out big time

Great Idea!!!

I've managed to successfully convert my type 3 to EFI with a Megasquirt II and Innovate wideband o2 controller.
Much of the EFI hardware is second hand and cost me bugger all.
Still tuning, but it runs brilliantly and so much better that points and carbs. The fuel delivery and spark timing values can be tuned close to perfect.
I'd be happy to offer feedback on megasquirt being used as the base EFI controller for this project.

I'll be watching this one...

Cheers, T

Forgive the consolidated replies once again:

vw54: I'd like your permission to extract the data from your orange smoothie EFI posts and consolidate it in a comparative spreadsheet that would be a record of actual implementations (I guess there are about 6-8 relevant examples among AVD members). In addition, I'd like you to send me any extra detailed info. you might have about suppliers, costs etc. etc. so that I can add to this knowledgebase. Any costing information would be greatly appreciated; at some (early) point in the project I guess we have to quantify what is meant by "reasonably-priced".

andrewmurhpy: Agree with all your points. Even with good facilitators/project managers, some collaborative projects run up onto the rocks. I guess we'll get to where we get. Would you like a role in the project co-ordination? Would you like to be the project manager? (serious questions; no retoric)

Camo: Good points, especially about the geographic dispersion. I would intend to rely on the wonders of the internet for e.g. virtual meetings, using internet telephony and cheap webcams, but I haven't thought any of this through well. Welcome aboard as a test mule provider!

type3lover: As for vw54 above, I'd like to include your implementation in the comparative spreadsheet that would be a record of actual implementations. Is that OK with you? Also sounds like you have specific expertise to add in the area of O2 sensors, possibly one of the keys to closed-loop tuning and driveability.

General; Thanks for the feed back. Looks to me that there is enough enthusiasm to carry this forward. As a temporary home for the various documents, lists, etc. which will be generated, I've allocated some space at:
http://modulus.com.au/avdefi/
Not much to see there now, but we need a place to hold spreadsheets, lists, docos., drawings etc.

Even though I'm not believer that communal projects can work, I'm offering my limited skills and manufacturing expertise... If anyone suggests one more time India or China as the place of cheap manufacturing, please, forget I wrote this ...

cb john: manufacturing expertise will be most welcome. With 20/20 hindsight I should have called it a "collaborative" project rather than "communal" - "communal" project sounds like something that doesn't get done by a bunch of hippies, whereas the intention is something that *does* get done by people with diverse skills working in collaboration.

hth

Hi

Interesting project idea. I was surfing and found this local ECU http://www.adaptronic.com.au. 

Seems reasonably priced.

Steve

This sounds very interesting. Unfortunately I have very little time or expertise to add at present.
I've been looking at EFI for my 1916 and the prices for off the shelf units are significant.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=71265 

Anything that would bring the price down sounds great!

I have changed the title of this thread, as with the positive feedback and number of people who have indicated a willingness to contribute, it is no longer a "proposal".

I have also created an EFI overview article at the AVD EFI Project Website (http://www.modulus.com.au/avdefi/) in an attempt to get a summary of the basics and some of the considerations for the VW T1 motor on paper, and would appreciate any feedback on that article from AVders who have the time to have a look.

TIA

Good luck in a task that most would never consider taking on (for no financial return)
I recently modified my 1916 to EFI as part of a complete resto of a 1967 beetle.. The theme was to maintain, 1960's VW cool with contemporary but subtle modifications in design and functionality..
Unfortunately I am not an engineering guru and restricted myself to the project management and aesthetic considerations.. I did, however, employ the best people I could find (many AVD members) to do essential parts of the project.. Certainly one of the most satisfying was the engine build and EFI conversion.. I love the increased power and usability that EFI has given this car..

reading it now.

I reckon this is a great idea. I have been toying with efi ideas for years. I have the engine sitting waiting for a rework, a car to sit it in and to efi it to learn more about it.

I have been keen on MS but only as it is really diy. Diy works for me as time (I have little) is cheaper for me than $$$ with young kiddies.....

great work Peter/modulus and others......i am also hugely interested...though probably have little to offer to help with the project.
even from an enviromental perspective this is something worth striving for.