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Horn issues - 63 Beetle

ratty 63 - February 22nd, 2011 at 01:24 AM

Hi Volks,

Short version:

Is there any possibility that something in the steering column of a 63 Beetle could become dislodged or not be correctly seated once the column has been moved up to replace the steering coupling?

Long version:

Last week I finally managed to finish off some long running brake repairs on my '63 Beetle. While I had the fuel tank out I took the time to check the condition of all the steering and suspension components. I ended up replacing a badly worn tie-rod end and, for safetys sake, the steering coupling.

I surprised myself when everything went back together easily and the car was ready to be test driven a whole day earlier than I expected.... then it happened....

As I backed the car out of the shed and onto the road I discovered that any more than light turning pressure on the steering wheel causes the horn to go off. No problems if you are not turning it and it seems to be worse when you turn to the left.

I assumed that I left one of the split-pins in the steering coupling touching something that it shouldn't so I pulled the tank back out and re-checked my work... but no problems were found.

I also noticed that the new steering coupling is slightly thinner than the one it replaced. This would move the steering wheel down, closer to the indicator mech by a couple of millimetres. A quick re-adjustment was made, but no change. I then moved the outer steering column/tube down too, but this didn't seem to have much effect either.

Finally I checked to see if the steering column both straight (it was) and centred in the outer tube. It appeared to be very slightly high so I loosed off the steering box mounts and rotated to steering box to re-centre the column. This has improved the problem - I can now put more turning pressure on the steering wheel before the horn sounds, but it still goes off without touching the horn button. (yes - the horn does go off when you push the horn button as it is supposed to)

I have noticed that if I grab the steering column just above the coupling and pull it upwards it makes the horn sound. Pushing the column towards the coupling will also produce the same result.

I have checked and re-checked that all the wiring is in working order and is not touching anything that it shouldn't.....

So, aside from wiring the horn to another button on the dash (something I'm not interested in doing), what do I do now? Surely someone else has seen this happen before and has found the problem....

Any suggestions?

R

zocstar - February 22nd, 2011 at 05:36 AM

I don't know bugs but I know that vw changed how they setup the horn about 100 times. My type 3, the centre of the shaft is the "hot" side of the horn circuit with a earth from the ring back down the shaft to ground on the steering box.

I know that in early(before key on shaft???) that the out side of the shaft is live!! Now that sounds dumb.

I'm sure someone here will tell you exactly what setup you have.

Hope I shed a bit of light, um prob not. Sorry.

hellbugged - February 22nd, 2011 at 05:37 AM

check the terminal on the steering coupler is not earthing.

when the bolts are done up, they can sometimes spin/turn enough to cause this issue

zocstar - February 22nd, 2011 at 05:46 AM

http://www.thebugshop.org/bsfqhorn.htm

vw54 - February 22nd, 2011 at 06:14 AM

have you got the insulation on the 3 screws that hold the horn ring to the wheel fitted

ratty 63 - February 22nd, 2011 at 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hellbugged
check the terminal on the steering coupler is not earthing.

when the bolts are done up, they can sometimes spin/turn enough to cause this issue

Checked - all four bolts have a visible air gap between them and anything else metallic. The terminal on one of the bolts is clear of everything around it.

Quote:

Originally posted by vw54
have you got the insulation on the 3 screws that hold the horn ring to the wheel fitted

Yep, they are there. The horn worked normally (well, as normally as a 6 volt horn does!) before I replaced the coupling. I only removed the steering wheel and started playing with spacings once this problem occurred.

I can't help thinking that the problem is related to either the column being slid up, away from the steering box (and something at the wheel end not going back into place when it was put back together) or something strange going on at the coupling... is it possible that over-tightening the coupling bolts could deform the coupling enough to cause this problem... it almost feels like there is an internal short in the coupling when it is placed under load.... :crazy:

Perhaps I should leave it for a while - I seem to be having a bad week - just had my desktop 'pooter die, my mobile phone won't connect to the network this morning (possibly not my end that is at fault) and had a brake shoe disintegrate, locking up the front right hand side wheel of the same car when I was on the way back from the shops yesterday morning. I think I'll go back to bed and start again next week!

Thanks for your suggestions - any help is appreciated.

R

vwo60 - February 22nd, 2011 at 10:07 AM

Check the clearance between the steering wheel and the indicator arm

hellbugged - February 22nd, 2011 at 10:09 AM

try the simple methods

take the terminal off at the steering wheel and see if it still shorts.........continue

other place i have thought might be where the wire comes off the bolts at the coupler and travels into the steering shaft. it's a tight fit here and easy to strip the insulation off as you move things about.

is the rubber still in place where the column goes through the fire wall behind the pedals and also under the mount plate just under the dash?

ratty 63 - February 22nd, 2011 at 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vwo60
Check the clearance between the steering wheel and the indicator arm

checked - I moved the indicator switch mech down the column so far that it no longer self cancelled - still have the problem.

Quote:

Originally posted by Hellbugged
try the simple methods

take the terminal off at the steering wheel and see if it still shorts.........continue

other place i have thought might be where the wire comes off the bolts at the coupler and travels into the steering shaft. it's a tight fit here and easy to strip the insulation off as you move things about.

is the rubber still in place where the column goes through the fire wall behind the pedals and also under the mount plate just under the dash?

Just took the wire off the wheel... horn still sounds when you 'load' the steering. Took the wire off the coupling and wrapped it in electrical tape (just to be sure it couldn't short on anything)... horn still sounds when the steering is loaded. Does this tell us anything? I've thought about this for so long that I have confused myself... is this pointing to a short in/around the coupling? I need another coffee!

The wire (and the insulation around it) in the steering column is in good condition - I looped a piece of string around the steering wheel end and pulled most of it down and out of the column to check it.

The rubber insulation in the firewall and in the column mounting bracket is all in good condition.

Zocstar, I just read the BugShop FAQ link - I'm not sure that I agree with his 62 -> 67 diagrams as the outer column is not 'hot' as he shows... or did I miss-read that bit? My understanding is that the outer column is part of the negative 'wire' that is switched by pushing the horn button. The current then flows down the wire in the centre of the steering column to a bolt on the steering coupling which is in contact with the steering box (mounted on the chassis and therefore earthed) completing the circuit.

R

hellbugged - February 22nd, 2011 at 11:17 AM

is the connector at the coupling on the correct bolt........?

ratty 63 - February 22nd, 2011 at 11:38 AM

yep - it is on one of the bolts that is attached to the steering box - just like in your pic.

I'm starting to think I should pull the coupling back out and re-do the install ... or put the old coupling back in to see if the problem still occurs.

R