Hi Guys,
Mainly racing orientated but it appears as if everyone is moving the gearbox forward. How far is everyone doing this?I suppose i am reading alot about the subaru conversions and while i'm not committing to this just yet, but with my standard type 1 donk should i consider moving itforward? how much can i do it?

What i am using:
IRS standard gearbox solid mounted with a fabbed HDsolid mount bought from richard at V-Force

As you already use Richards mounting why not talk to him about it,my thoughts are that unless you are full on racing it shouldn't be necessary.VW spent millions of dollars developing these cars and over the years I haven't found it necessary in a road going bug.Cheers Les

WOFTAM

Don't try to improve on perfection, especially German or Swiss.

You useless bastards will f**k it up lol

Waste of f'king time and money, which is exactly what it is.

Flipping the cradle only moves it forward 40mm and that is gonna have absolutely no effect on the handling at all.

The only reason it's done with some Subi conversions is with the quad cam engines it's the only way to get the timing belt covers to fit under the apron and decklid.

It's not that easy with a VW engine.
The tinware won't line up with the body anymore, the doghouse oil cooler would hit the firewall and the fan intake would be almost against the firewall too.

oh i see i suppose with an a/c motor yhere would be complications but if we are talking about pure race cars i think any advantage is worth exploring.

Hmm, yeah - I agree with Matt that there will be an effect on front/rear weight distribution, but don't know if it would be noticable or not.

Could only guess at the difficult/costs of doing it... are you going to be doing it yourself ???

One thing I'd say tho is to consider the class regs... for Improved Production it would be a no-no as far as I read the rules:

http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/02_race/d.%203rd%20Category/RA29_Group_3J_Q111.pdf

4.4 Engine mounts:
(i) Engine mounts are free.
(ii) The engine mounting points on the bodyshell may be removed, modified or added to facilitate engine fitment.
There must be no other alterations made to the body to fit a replacement engine except for minor reshaping of
panels, other than the bonnet, for the fitment of engine mounted ancillaries and exhaust.
(iii) Engine mounting brackets bolted or welded to the crossmember may be removed, modified or added to
facilitate the installation of a replacement engine. No other modifications to the crossmember may be made in
order to provide clearance for the replacement engine.
(iv) It is permissible to reverse the orientation of the engine crossmember provided no alteration to the bodywork
or crossmember is necessary
(v) Where a replacement engine from another eligible model is fitted, the crossmember from the block’s donor
vehicle may be used provided that it is a direct

On a Volksy you could argue that the rear trans mount is the engine crossmember, but then you'd have a problem with the front trans mount, ends of the torsion tubes etc. and so fall foul of the "no alteration to the bodywork" bit

Like has been said many times over... IMHO you need to build the car to suit the class you want to run, and I think moving the trans forward would lead to... Sports Sedan.

Fair enough for a purely track car if it fits into the regs for that class then go for it, some of those blokes do every tiny little thing to try and improve handling, but on the other hand also look how many 1000s of bugs have also done well on the track with stock driveline position.

Admittedly I don't have a degree in physics but I can see how moving it forward would improve the weight bias but by only 40mm though?
Not much in the scale of things, and fair bit of work to make it happen with a stock cooling system

The strain on CVs at those kind of angles for track use I wouldn't imagine they would last real long?

Yes, everything helps, and the engine and tranny are an appreciable component to the overall weight of the car, especially a light car.
Aparently the firewall relocate isn't too drastic a job and I believe the stock cooling will then work. As for cv angles, forget that one, there would be no appreciable change to the running angle, as you said it's only 40mm forward, it's like 40mm of suspension travel or ride height change. People do it all the time without CV's blowing up all the time. It is only 40mm as any more needs major surgery, but 40mm is relatively easy without too many mods.
I haven't done one and I'm not convinced to be doing it on the circuit car build I'm doing presently, but I haven't discounted it yet either.

40mm

If everyone is moving their gearbox forward, I had better do mine [No.8 Beetle].

Can anyone tell me how all that toe-out would influence the handling?

Oh Greg we forgot to say that with your old fashioned car you'd have to shorten the sprig plates too which may make the weight bias actually worse than stock......Doh ...I think I've gone around in a loop.....

Quote:

Originally posted by HappyDaze If everyone is moving their gearbox forward, I had better do mine [No.8 Beetle]. Can anyone tell me how all that toe-out would influence the handling?

perhaps if you flipped the engine and tranny around and had the engine where you're back seat used to be and modified box for reverse operation.

ahaha just f**king buy a 914!

Quote:

Originally posted by vlad01 perhaps if you flipped the engine and tranny around and had the engine where you're back seat used to be and modified box for reverse operation. ahaha just f**king buy a 914!

what? ahh haha nice one but April 1st in on Friday.

40mm roughly 1.5 percent better weight distribution. 800 kg beetle 320 kgs front 480kgs rear, means quite a bit in my book. someone can do the math but im to "tired" and "emotional"

corner weights are a good start using greg wards corner weight published on aircooled.net for a BJ IRS beetle with cage and big sway bars and the like, by my calcs it puts about 7 kgs more on the fronts at 40mm so roughly 330 on the front and 7 less on the rears. its a funny thing talking about such small gains but a lot of people spend plenty more money chasing horsepower gains thhat might get you from point to point quicker but if you can brake better turn in better get back on it earlier that makes sense to me. then if you want to spend more and move it 100mm forward the gains become much more apreciable.

formula V setup, like Vlad was saying

Hmm.. if there was room for an east/west engine setup (like fwd) then it would push both the gearbox and engine forward. Goodbye rear seat... hello new boot space

(GTI golf engine config cough cough hint hint!)

Not trying to argue Joel, but forget about CV angles please. Even moving trans forward 100mm won;t really effect the angle in an extreme sense as the joint wont see more than it does normally except for the fact (which is important for high hp) that they will be seeing the angle all the time. At neutral suspension ht where the cv's are normally level, the wheel can drop through 4" of suspension travel, if you move the trans forward 100mm (4") the cv will no longer change angle as the suspension ht changes, it will stay at a relatively constant angle in this case. This, as you can imagine, is due to the suspension arms scribing an arc down and fwd.
This is an area offroaders play with all the time. With longer arms it is the same effectively as moving the trans fwd, there is a point around 5" longer arms that they have to start moving the eng/trans back, but that is due to axle plunge with mega suspension travel.
Porsche CV's are happy to 22deg, after that a few mods and a close eye are recommended. IIRC type 2's are 17deg, type 1....who really cares, they are so small anyway, who'd use them ????

All good Matt, not really my area of expertise, I'll leave the tranny where it is

Quote:

Originally posted by bajachris88 Hmm.. if there was room for an east/west engine setup (like fwd) then it would push both the gearbox and engine forward. Goodbye rear seat... hello new boot space (GTI golf engine config cough cough hint hint!)

^^^ also been done with a camry/MR2 turbo swap- right up your ally chris

Quote:

Originally posted by bajachris88 formula V setup, like Vlad was saying Hmm.. if there was room for an east/west engine setup (like fwd) then it would push both the gearbox and engine forward. Goodbye rear seat... hello new boot space (GTI golf engine config cough cough hint hint!)

Quote:

Originally posted by vlad01 550 Spider