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Motorcycle Fuel injection on a Dub

TAFEteacher - August 23rd, 2012 at 07:20 AM

Hi guys. I'm new here so go easy on me....lol
I'm thinking of doing a Dub as a bit of a project and eventually it would be my daily work driver.
In a bit to stay modern, but also do a few " cost effective" mods, I am thinking of running injection, but don't want to pay thousands to do it.
Has anyone tried motorcycle injection on a VW?

As a bike guy, and manufacturing a lot of billet Hayabusa components when I was running my business, I am contemplating using a Hayabusa ECU, throttle bodies, injectors etc etc. I've heard there are a few people putting them on inline fours, so I was curious if anyone had done that on a VW.
There is a group of guys on the net who have developed open source software to crack the ECU, and it's fully programmable with fuel curves, ignition curves, can operate air shifters, compensate for boost etc etc......
Can someone tell me the intake port spacings on the different VW heads?
My thought was to make a similar manifold to the Webber manifold as the Hayabusa throttle bodies have a long bolt through them that holds them together on pairs, so they can be split into two banks of two.

My only stumbling block will be the cam sensor. It will take some thought on how to do this, however from memory the oil pump drives off the cam and is in front of it, so it should be at half crank speed. I'm sure guys have already solved this problem to run Motecs and the like.

If anyone in the Brisbane area has a Webber style manifold I could borrow for a weekend, I'd like to digitse it so I could knock up a 3D model of what the manifold would look like. I'm fortunate enough to have a 6 axis faro digitizing arm and relevant modeling software at home to do the task.

Any thoughts?
Greig

TAFEteacher - August 23rd, 2012 at 07:21 AM

Sorry about any spelling mistakes. I'm still using my IPad to post, and it has that annoying predictive text thing going.

vw54 - August 23rd, 2012 at 07:24 AM

search on here there are several threads on F I mine is below

aftermarket is the way to go will cost hardware approx 2K and depends on what ECU you buy

I have a MT8 available I updated to Autronic last xmas

vwo60 - August 23rd, 2012 at 07:26 AM

I have a set of weber offset manifolds sitting in the shed, but you would probably be better off using a straight manifold like the CB performance big beef which is what i replaced these with, if they are suitable just send me a PM, I at Pomona but intend to come down to Brisbane before the week end.

snitz - August 23rd, 2012 at 11:41 AM

I have a mate who runs an improved production racecar (mazda RX3) which is turbo and runs kawasaki throttle bodies.Its something different and would work in a vw application with modified manifolds.Only thing is CB Performance sell complete efi kits and idf/ida set ups are readily available and are tried and tested setups and probably a cheaper option in the long run.Good luck either way..

waveman1500 - August 23rd, 2012 at 03:32 PM

Interesting idea. The port spacings on VW heads are absolutely tiny, somewhere in the region of about 30mm between centres. As you say, you would need a manifold similar to weber manifolds. As others have said, you can buy ready-made throttle bodies to suit weber IDF manifolds fairly cheap, so do some costings as to how much your setup would be. The throttle bodies are about $250-300 each, so if you're paying that much for Hayabusa stuff, then you may as well stick with the tried and tested formula. Look at CB Performance for their complete EFI setup here:

http://cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1665

For US$1995 plus shipping you get everything you need except for the distributor and ignition system.

Also check out CB Performance for individual throttle bodies and manifolds. EFI Hardware in Australia also has Weber IDF style throttle bodies.

TAFEteacher - August 23rd, 2012 at 05:26 PM

Thanks guys. I'll have a look at the CB stuff and see what it is.

VW060, thanks for the offer, however this weekend is out, but I'll keep it in mind. I'd like to check out the CB thing and see what the ones you replaced are.

Cost wise I have about 3 Busa's in bits in my shed including stroker cranks, cams etc etc, so I was just going to use parts I had and make the bits I needed.

One of my students wants to make a billet manifold to adapt Toyota injection to a ford head, and it got me thinking about the Busa's injection on the VW idea. I teach CAD/ CAM/CNC to mechanical engineering students in the FSAE Motorsport teams so manifolds won't be too much of a challenge, but was curious if someone had done it and found any problems.

Thanks again guys. I'll drag a head and injection out and get some bore spacings to compare with a webber initially. I think the spacing may be closer than a webber but we'll see.

barls - August 23rd, 2012 at 05:55 PM

try reading these
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34664&p=213715&...
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34645&p=213504&...
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=138151&p=1095242&am...
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=133068&p=1034650&a...
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=88910&hilit=motorc...
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=127574&p=972321&...

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/search.php?keywords=motorcycle+throttle+bodies&...

Sides - August 23rd, 2012 at 07:25 PM

Does sound like an interesting idea !!!

I've got a set of CB Big Beef IDA manifolds can borrow to digitise if ya like... they're ported for 044 Wedge Ports tho... what sort of heads ya thinkin of running ???

TAFEteacher - August 23rd, 2012 at 09:01 PM

Hi Dave. Can you PM me?
It sounds like they're the ones to use. I would need to make the tops round tubes without a flange as the Busa runs rubbers to mount the injection.

Greig

Gracey - August 23rd, 2012 at 09:21 PM

I think you'll find the IDA spacing too wide for Busa injection, you'd be better off with IDF manifolds.

I'm pretty sure I have a set of IDF big beef manifolds I'm not using a the moment you could have a load of.

I work for Logan City Council so I could take them to work one day if that helps.

vwo60 - August 23rd, 2012 at 09:28 PM

These are the big beef manafolds on my 2275.

vw54 - August 23rd, 2012 at 10:16 PM

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099

cam070 - August 23rd, 2012 at 11:58 PM

If you get this going, you will need to share the pics. It sounds like you have some nice facilities at your disposal.

itsfo - August 24th, 2012 at 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TAFEteacher

My only stumbling block will be the cam sensor. It will take some thought on how to do this, however from memory the oil pump drives off the cam and is in front of it, so it should be at half crank speed. I'm sure guys have already solved this problem to run Motecs and the like.

Perhaps you could some how run a dizzy which incorporates a crank angle sensor like on the RB30 from VL commodore/skyline.....

TAFEteacher - August 24th, 2012 at 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by itsfo

Quote:

Originally posted by TAFEteacher

Perhaps you could some how run a dizzy which incorporates a crank angle sensor like on the RB30 from VL commodore/skyline.....

Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees....... Thanks for that!!!!!!!....... Normally I'm the one pointing out the seemingly obvious.

I do have a lot of very nice equipment at my disposal as I work in our new engineering building that opens next week. Unfortunately, I can't use it to make my own parts as the government (TAFE) owns it and somehow that would be seen as taking advantage or a conflict of interest.
Currently I have a 5 axis Okuma which is up and running
In a couple of weeks I'll have a 5 axis HAAS which has a trunnion. If you google Cnc porting Porsche head on YouTube, the setup is exactly the same.
By years end we'll have a HAAS Cnc lathe with C axis and Y axis with live tooling and an Okuma Cnc lathe with C axis, Y axis and live tooling.
I plan to develop Cnc port digitizing and Cnc porting with my uni students.

I do have a 6 axis Faro digitizing arm however, and CAD/CAM software myself, so I can model it and program it, and then just pay a machine shop to run it. I used to own a CNC machine shop making billet race components mostly for the U.S. market and mostly components with the customers name on it so it was "their product", so I know what needs to be done to make it.

Someone mentioned the spacingwon't be correct for the injection. That doesn't bother me too much as the manifold will be to suit the head at one end, and suit the injection at the other, and would blend in between. Infact, I wonder if the throttle bodies should even be parallel. That may just be for ease of manufacture and because someone one day plonked a Webber on their and they've been parallel ever since. Possibly the throttle bodies should be splayed a bit, I don't know, and they could be cable operated with a 4 into 1 cable linkage like drag bikes run.
What the Busa's runs( and other production stuff) is a pulley that has a cable diameter that isn't even around the centerline of the pulley. For the first part of the throttle it takes a lot more peddle to move it the same distance or rotation of the throttle for smoother driving around town. So you'd just make 4 of these and spit them into individuals.
To be honest, it's the ECU that is the trick bit. It's a very good ECU. Because it's both ignition and fuel, and available from the wreckers for a couple of hundred dollars or so, it's good value. You can buy the plugs if you hunt around, or get an OE harness and modify to suit. It runs 4 individual coil/plug caps.
The programming software is free as enthusiasts have created it as shareware, and the cable to program it is available for about $150 from a dragbike guy in the U.S.
You can program an amazing amount of things and modify individual cylinders for timing and fuel, program for extra fuel with a MAP sensor and turbo, extra fuel for nitrous ramping in, ignition retard, you can activate things at certain RPM etc etc etc.
I'll post the websites in another post.
The ECU I have is an 16 bit, which is 2002-2007. They've also cracked the later one from 2008 onwards, which is where they are now concentrating.

Greig

1303Steve - August 24th, 2012 at 08:00 AM

Hi

Interesting project. The 2.6 EFI Mitsubishi Magna dizzy has dual crank angle sensors, one for cylinder reference and one for TDC. They are very easy to adapt to VW use.

Steve

coletrickle - August 24th, 2012 at 08:42 AM

How about you just cut to the chase and install a stroker hyabusa motor and box in the bug?all you need is a Quaife reverser.

bat69 - August 24th, 2012 at 09:39 AM

There is a bloke here in the Newcastle area who has been running/racing a Beetle for a few years now running an injection system using bike throttle bodies. His car seems to run rather well from what I have seen. So it can be done.

TAFEteacher - August 24th, 2012 at 12:06 PM

Interesting information the Magna Dizzy is an option by the sounds, although I was thinking along the lines of a plate with 16 teeth on the crank pulley. and an alloy cap with a pin that rotates for the original hayabusa cam angle sensor to bolt downwards from. This would be super easy to make and work quite well I believe.

"There is a bloke here in the Newcastle area who has been running/racing a Beetle for a few years now running an injection system using bike throttle bodies. His car seems to run rather well from what I have seen. So it can be done."
Would be interesting to see what he's done.

You have to love the internet these days where you can paste pictures and pass information and ideas quickly and freely.
Back when I was playing with VW's, late 70's/very early 80's, you had to rely on magazines for ideas, and "facetime" was when someone walked up and challenged you to a race.....lol

TAFEteacher - August 24th, 2012 at 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by coletrickle
How about you just cut to the chase and install a stroker hyabusa motor and box in the bug?all you need is a Quaife reverser.

Been there, played with that.......Not in a VW, but in roundy roundy cars. I'll try and post a pic of one of my customers cars. Mike used to race in a class against Porsches, and they didn't stand a chance. Mike used to race Porsche cup originally, then bought this car with a Hayabusa engine and came to see us to try and elleviate the bearing issues. I also started building engines for him and we fitted a swinging oil pick up originally that swung forward under brakes and to the rear on acceleration. We then manufactured a dry sump for the car. He was a good customer as the more things worked, the more he let us experiment. We fitted a drag racing lock-up clutch with modified weights as I mentioned we were doing 2 race meetings in one. The run from the startline to the first corner was a drag race, and after that it was a roundy roundy race. On the first outing with the new clutch set-up he started in about 14th place at QR and by the time he got to the first corner he was in third. Then he just had to round up the other two during the course of the race.

Hmmmm....i'm having trouble loading pictures...Is there a trick to load a pic that doesn't have a www address?

bat69 - August 24th, 2012 at 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TAFEteacher
"There is a bloke here in the Newcastle area who has been running/racing a Beetle for a few years now running an injection system using bike throttle bodies. His car seems to run rather well from what I have seen. So it can be done."
Would be interesting to see what he's done.

Troys car is a pretty neat set up. He does a fair share of super sprints in his car with the MGCC around wakefield and eastern creek. That may be your chance to have a look.

In relation to your ignition. I run a modified bus ignition from a late model EFI Kombie (has shortest shaft) for my home made crank angle sensor. You could use any VW one I guess. I had a small alloy disk machined up which attaches to the shaft, placed 4 magnets in the disk (2 x north 2 x south). Got a cap from an old compufire system, drilled a hole in the top for a duel sendor and my ignition system works fine.

TAFEteacher - August 24th, 2012 at 12:33 PM

I went and measured the centre to centre on hayabusa injection. I measured the head sigots. It's 80mm
What's a Webber?

TAFEteacher - August 24th, 2012 at 12:48 PM

OK, I think I have the picture thing worked out.
This should be Mike Kilpatrick's Hayabusa powered car

TAFEteacher - August 24th, 2012 at 01:11 PM

OK, here are a couple of pics
One is the head showing the spigots, the others are the bellmouth rubber and the manifold rubber.
You can also see on the head pic where the cam sensor goes through the tappet cover and the tappet cover that is turned over, you can see the cam sensor in one of the corners.
The cam just has a small dowel on it that goes past the sensor.
The ID of the port on the cylinder head and the rubber is 41.5mm. I'm not sure what a webber is.

TAFEteacher - August 24th, 2012 at 01:19 PM

Here is the ECU hacking site http://ecuhacking.activeboard.com/f392256/suzuki-gsx1300r-hayabusa/

This guy makes the cable and has videos etc
http://www.boostbysmith.com/ecu.html

The Busa ECU can do things like:
Ability to view all sensors data with a laptop connected
Ability to datalog all factory sensors on the motorcyle with a laptop connected for use in dyno tuning.
Ability to change fueling maps (both IAP and TPS maps), ram air compensation
Ability to change ignition maps (you can add timing in the lower gears like a TRE does without messing up your gear based fuel curves)
Increase your factory rev limiter (current software supports up to 11,650 RPM, more RPM is possible)
Remove the 6th gear speed restriction with the click of a button
Change ram air compensation based on your gearing
Compensate for larger fuel injectors needed for high hp applications
Compensate for increased fuel pressure needed for high hp applications
Increase ignition dwell time (turbo guys will like being able to open the plug gap back up some)
Disable IAT compensation for dyno testing
Turn your ECU into an ignition / fuel kill box for use with an air/co2 shifter
Control a shift light, or any RPM based output using the stock flapper valve circuit
Switch-able map selection for NOS, different turbo boost levels, fuel types etc
Share maps with people across the world and contribute to new exciting features constantly being introduced and implemented.

This also has tutorials on the software for things like Setting rev liniters, shift lights, Nitrous etc etc

Greig

psimitar - August 24th, 2012 at 11:37 PM

wonder if the ECU firmware can be modded to use a crank sensor instead of cam sensor as it's just a doubling of the input sensor to read the correct engine speed alongside trigger positioning.
The ECU is maybe a C compiled assembly language but the guys who hacked it could tell you that. Could well be just a single line of code to change.

Toyota Corolla AE92R's 4A-FE use an ignition trigger sensor in them along with a hall effect too. Must be the Denso dizzy tho and not the Bosch.

Maybe get your students to run programmes for the manifolds as R&D for you at uni as the fabrication of development parts will be a big chunk of money.

You'll also need to fab a plenum chamber to mount the MAP sensor in but I think the map works on the engine side of the throttle butterfly and not the atmospheric side. Need to check that for proper MAP signal.

Technically if you can change the parameters of any ECU then with the correct input sensors any ECU can run any engine. In the real world tho it's not so easy

waveman1500 - August 25th, 2012 at 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TAFEteacher
I went and measured the centre to centre on hayabusa injection. I measured the head sigots. It's 80mm
What's a Webber?

Weber IDF spacing is 90mm. The bore sizes come in 36mm, 40mm, 44mm and 48mm. Most manifolds are 48mm, but you might be able to find some smaller ones.

TAFEteacher - August 25th, 2012 at 08:42 AM

With the ignition, it's controlled from the ECU. The spark plug caps are the coils.
I'll just need to make something "in place of" the distributor to swing a dowel past the camshaft sensor to tell the ECU when cylinder one is ready.
The ECU is sequential, not batch fire.