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How much does a pony cost?

boof2332 - June 21st, 2005 at 12:35 AM

Jak and I were talking the other day about how Paul wants to run NOS and 20+pound 1.because it will be ridiculously quick and 2. if it blows up then he goes and grabs another for $800 and is back on the road in a weekend.
Apart from the initial set up for a specific motor, what will it cost you per h/p to replace that same engine. On Jaks 195hp it is $4.10 per hp, I am hoping for 250hp which is $3.20 per hp.
My 2332 cost $8000 and would have made about 150hp, which is $53.33 per hp. There are people paying $11000 for 130 hp....wait for it....$84 per hp!!!
I went for a bit of a drive tonight, discovered M3 BMW's are slow, and thought to myself... this car screams, is relaible, smooth, fuel efficient, sounds like Darth Vader and if I want I can thrash the crap out of it because its only $800 if I screw the motor, and I dont have to wait for someone to rebuild it!

I think my journey to the dark side is complete........
:vader

vw54 - June 21st, 2005 at 07:13 AM

DEpends on what you want but some good figures there

jvl054 - June 21st, 2005 at 08:04 AM

Thats True Matt, its all black and white:vader JVLRacing

jvl054 - June 21st, 2005 at 08:04 AM

Thats True Matt, its all black and white:vader JVLRacing

jvl054 - June 21st, 2005 at 08:04 AM

Thats True Matt, its all black and white:vader JVLRacing

pyr0 - June 21st, 2005 at 08:45 AM

WOW that got the poitn across ^^^^^^

triple post, repition insures that its remberd :duh

VWCOOL - June 21st, 2005 at 09:43 AM

Nah, it's all grey... that's why I play with getting power out of air-cooled VWs instead of being sensible and putting money into my HSV's V8...

boof2332 - June 21st, 2005 at 12:01 PM

Well in Glen, I can always count on you for a quick response....

pete wood - June 21st, 2005 at 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VWCOOL
Nah, it's all grey... that's why I play with getting power out of air-cooled VWs instead of being sensible and putting money into my HSV's V8...

sensible = HSV !?! :duh

all the same from my perspective. the HSV is still a nasty old pushrod engine. They don't rev and cost an arm and a leg. Anyone can make HP from a 5 litre engine.

But if you want to play with aircooled motors, that's cool.

Now I'm just waiting to see who comes and disagrees with me, but I have a hunch about who it might be....

boof2332 - June 21st, 2005 at 12:29 PM

You didnt tell me you were going fishing today Pete.

Baja Wes - June 21st, 2005 at 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by boof2332
On Jaks 195hp it is $4.10 per hp, I am hoping for 250hp which is $3.20 per hp.

Those suby motor's certainly are cheap. After selling the gearbox and junk from the front cut my remaining V6 motor cost my $1750, and I have 200HP (althought that is flywheel), so mine is about $8.75/flywheel HP.

More expensive than the subi's, but I'll just tell myself mine is more exotic

If my car wasn't an offroader I would've actually went for the Mitsu 6A12G twin turbo 2L V6. I'm just a sucker for a hi-po jap V6. If the mod rules change I might supercharge my KLZE.

You guys are doing well to find the EJ20's for $800 though. Around here you either buy the front cut, or buy the engine for almost the front cut price anyway. And the EJ20T, my KLZE V6 and the Mitsu V6 are all around the $2500 in front cut form around Brisbane. Unless I am just looking in the wrong place...

MikeM - June 21st, 2005 at 01:09 PM

Yeah where do you buy an EJ20T for $800? They cost allot more then that up here in brisbane. Either that or I've been following Wes to the wrong places. :duh

Doug Sweetman - June 21st, 2005 at 01:17 PM

Well, my 1835 cost me about $3500 all told, and I guess it makes about 85hp on a good day. Thats about $41 / hp.

Yes, if I was building the car again, it would have either EJ22 / EJ20T or 13B power in it.

Would love to be able to do that now, but $$ are an issue.

Having said that, there is something special and nice about a hipo VW motor, and its a lifestyle choice more than anything what you choose to power your vw with. I also can appreciate those who just want to tweak what came with the car as far as possible (the person who comes immediately to mind is Adam Debiasi (I think) with his turbo, intercooled FI'd 1916 green machine).

pete wood - June 21st, 2005 at 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by boof2332
You didnt tell me you were going fishing today Pete.

sometimes I just can't help myself.

I haven't done the maths on my motor. Coz of when I did it and how I did it, I know it's not as cheap as you guys. But it's still a few grand cheaper than a VW motor of similar specs.

jvl054 - June 21st, 2005 at 03:21 PM

I see:duh a debate happening!!!JVLRacing

pete wood - June 21st, 2005 at 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doug Sweetman
Well, my 1835 cost me about $3500 all told, and I guess it makes about 85hp on a good day. Thats about $41 / hp.

Yes, if I was building the car again, it would have either EJ22 / EJ20T or 13B power in it.

Would love to be able to do that now, but $$ are an issue.

Having said that, there is something special and nice about a hipo VW motor, and its a lifestyle choice more than anything what you choose to power your vw with. I also can appreciate those who just want to tweak what came with the car as far as possible (the person who comes immediately to mind is Adam Debiasi (I think) with his turbo, intercooled FI'd 1916 green machine).

Ideally, I think most of us would love to own something like Adam's motor (except bigger of course :thumb), but it's hard to justify it when you can buy something better that's cheaper and OEM, even if it's not a VW.

I have a TLE type 3 motor in my garage at home. I'd love to build it up really tough and turbo it for something. But in reality, it will probably just end up a 1640 with mostly standard internals. My mate has a notch and I'm trying to con him into putting in that, but when the standard motor is so smooth, it's hard to explain why you'd want to spend thousands getting to run right with EFI and an intercooler. That said, he used to own a 350 monaro, so I'm confident he'll feel the need for more power sooner rather than later.:P

Doug Sweetman - June 21st, 2005 at 04:20 PM

Amen.

Would be nice to do, but hard to justify unless $$ arent an issue or you have a business to advertise.

jvl054 - June 21st, 2005 at 05:18 PM

What i cant justify a T4 stroker with all the goodies +Turboed costing over 16,17,18 ooo $$$ + Producing roughly around 200 to 300 estimated(i stand corrected) Where i can build a Subie motor for $7000 with 300+hps.Theres subie motors on this forum which cost $3500 producing 195hps.Lets be honest which one would you want?:duhJVLRacing

boof2332 - June 21st, 2005 at 08:00 PM

Doug,

Put your 1835 on the forum for sale and buy 2 ej20t's...you know..one for the rainy day!

Look in any Fast 4 mag and they are advertised for $800..one place bench tested in front of you!

Matt

pete wood - June 21st, 2005 at 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jvl054
What i cant justify a T4 stroker with all the goodies +Turboed costing over 16,17,18 ooo $$$ + Producing roughly around 200 to 300 estimated(i stand corrected) Where i can build a Subie motor for $7000 with 300+hps.Theres subie motors on this forum which cost $3500 producing 195hps.Lets be honest which one would you want?:duhJVLRacing

Before we get all holier than thou about subie motors, lets talk aout real subie race motors. I was at MRT afew years back and one car had 50K worth of stroker motor in it, and that was before tuning. And what about the Group A rally cars? The firm that builds them in the UK charges 100K plus for a motor that only produces 300hp (albiet ridiculous torque). Real race subies can produce 500hp plus with a proper build up. Ring the Rigolis and ask them how much one of those would cost. I'm guessing you'd be in Pauter spending territory by then.

So no, a type 4 stroker isn't cheap, but then neither is any stroker motor.

boof2332 - June 21st, 2005 at 11:21 PM

I just went to the shops to get some cough mixture..its about 1.5km away. It took me an hour....just kept driving. Nothing worth a mention had a run except a Honda NSX-R, at first I thought it was a 355 behind me and I got a bit excited at the thought of spanking my first ferrari..not to be.

The short sump seems to be fine, and I drove the car all day today without any problems. The rear intercooler with the ducting and fans works a treat. Intake temps drop to ambient...tonight 10degrees.

Matt

Jak Rizzo - June 22nd, 2005 at 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pete wood

Quote:

I can walk into MRT & buy an US STI 2.5 L (brand new) short block for $3500 & just bolt on all my heads, manifolds turbo exhaust etc, why spend $50'000? I would consider that extremely cheap, especially when these 2.5 motors can punt a rexxy down a 11 second 1/4 mile & sub 50second lap times at Oran Park.
But I seriously doubt that I would be able to handle that kind of power, although I'm sure that there is someone on the forum that probably thinks they can.

jvl054 - June 22nd, 2005 at 09:15 AM

Pete, for sure the Rigolis have ther shit together.Deffently next project will be a 2.5subie.These are my facts : i run a 2L subie with no STI gear,big heads,TDo5 cleaned up 14psi at 1 bar,modified wastegate,modified pipe flow work etc costing $7000 300hps @272foot pounds of torque.Now those race subie motors costing 50k and getting 500hps!.Ill guarantee another 2or5k i will get somewhere close to that fig. of 500hps without spending 50k.The 2L subie has so much potential its mind blowing for such little money that we have to spend on it.I feel holier of my acheivement JVLRacing

GL1972 - June 22nd, 2005 at 10:27 AM

I spent about $7200 on my 2110cc an I figure I've got close to 100RWHP.

$72 per HP
.
.
.
.
How much was your conversion again Jak? $3800

I can understand a karmann, split, oval, '67 etc keeping the aircooled engine but hey I have a 1302 and it is not regarded as a "classic" by the puritans. I wouldn't cut a good classic VW to fit any engine/turbo/supercharger/double overhead fangers etc.... but a super beetle, a baja, a manx (as long as I didn't deface the look of the kit), a bay window...... you bet.

Cheap reliable HP. If I had only known before I started my engine build.

Brendan

Jak Rizzo - June 22nd, 2005 at 03:21 PM

$7200 for 100hp @ the wheels, u got a bargain mate! some people pay $10000+ for 100hp @ the wheels (in reality)
Hey where did your bottom pic go? the car looked great, can u email it to me?
regards
Jak

PS I got my new wheels, did u want to try my old ones on?

pete wood - June 22nd, 2005 at 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jvl054
Pete, for sure the Rigolis have ther shit together.Deffently next project will be a 2.5subie.These are my facts : i run a 2L subie with no STI gear,big heads,TDo5 cleaned up 14psi at 1 bar,modified wastegate,modified pipe flow work etc costing $7000 300hps @272foot pounds of torque.Now those race subie motors costing 50k and getting 500hps!.Ill guarantee another 2or5k i will get somewhere close to that fig. of 500hps without spending 50k.The 2L subie has so much potential its mind blowing for such little money that we have to spend on it.I feel holier of my acheivement JVLRacing

I think you'll find that there is a law of diminishing returns. As the power level rises the amount of money you need to spend to get more increases exponentially. So yes, for 2-5k you might be able to get an extra 100-150hp without to many issues. Heck, for that you might even get 600hp. The real question is, at those levels, way outside it's original design spec, how long will the motor last? Will it just be a grenade?
Coz lets face it, if it is, $800 every race meeting isn't looking so cheap. :duh

And we haven't even started discussing what 500hp does to a gearbox when driven in anger....
mmmm, food for thought. :o

jvl054 - June 22nd, 2005 at 05:48 PM

Yeh your right about the gearbox,deffently would explode.Most subies will explode if the boost of the Turbo is not set up right all goven proper.This can lead to internal problems without a doudt.Internally these motors are strong,breathing of subie motors are week.If you get it right skys the limit.$800 dollars every meet!!!!195hps at $3500 .5 meets ayear at $800 dollars a blow up =$4000. Vw stroker $16000 around ball park fig interesting.:duhJVLRacing

pete wood - June 22nd, 2005 at 06:18 PM

Youre a bad man

But as if you'd want to replace your motor after every meet, and that's assuming it would make it through the whole race.

That said, if you were to do it like that you could buy in bulk off the local wrecker.

Although, all the other subie parts customers might get cranky with you very fast. And you wnat to factor in the cost of oil, turbos and new timing belts.

jvl054 - June 22nd, 2005 at 06:50 PM

Yeh your right i wouldnt like to replace my motor every meet,just aint practical.Its without doudt a very strong motor and plenty more homework to go even STI would be proud:P:PJVLRacing

GL1972 - June 23rd, 2005 at 08:53 AM

Jak,
I did the build myself and scoured around for parts so the 7200 was just for parts and machining. As you know I never built the motor as a HP monster but one that had plenty of torque and was fun to drive on the street. I got what I wanted. Having ridden in yours I know you got fun and street driveable with plenty of HP.

That photo was taken by Squizy on the F3 on the way to the Hunter a few weeks ago.

I'd love to try the wheels but will be away and won't have a weekend available until the 17th. I'll drop around on the weekend to have a look at the new ones though.

Brendan