great source heater hoses/pipes.
pete wood - June 25th, 2006 at 02:31 PM
Came across a great source for heater piping yesterday. My mate who's a plumber came round to put in the plumbing for our extention. Turned up with
some Rehau plastic water hose. Much cheaper than copper and doesn't need bends.
Then he told me it can cope with up to 140deg and over 10bar (150psi) of pressure. Both these are way outside the need of car heater tubing. Added to
that it's UV stable and reasonably flexible. Comes in 2 sizes, 16mm ($2 per metre) and 20mm ($3.50 per metre) and has press on brass joints. The
trick is to find a plumber with the pressing tool, coz it's $700. 
Needless to say when my mate left I had two 20mm dia plastic heater pipes in just the right shape to go up under my guards.
[ Edited on 25-6-06 by pete wood ]
Volkswagenboy - June 25th, 2006 at 03:28 PM
Sounds like you're onto something Uncle Pete!
-Staggers.
VWCOOL - June 25th, 2006 at 08:01 PM
Your guards must be a funny shape?!
j/k. Good find! You could run those through sills or a floorpan without too many dramas, too
[ Edited on 25-6-2006 by VWCOOL ]
bajachris88 - June 25th, 2006 at 08:08 PM
nah, if its for its buggy, there is a guard running round the whole side, cause the side lip of the body curls around and over, like a guard, all
around (like that lip above the area where they put the side pods)
pete wood - June 26th, 2006 at 09:42 AM
| Quote: |
Originally
posted by VWCOOL
Your guards must be a funny shape?!
|
um yeah. Sorry wasn't very clear there. What i meant was that you can curve the pipe to the shape of the guards easily. The short pipes running at a
right angle to the main length will go through a hole in the side of the body and under the dash.
GTMac - June 26th, 2006 at 11:01 AM
So what do each connector cost? Any idea if most plumbers are getting into this stuff? My plumber said since he last did my job 2 years ago, length of
copper pipe has gone from $35 length to $85 length.
blutopless2 - June 26th, 2006 at 11:20 AM
i used this stuff in my bathroom last year. Hired the crimping tool from a local plumber that the guy at the plumbing supply place knew (day cost me
$20). My whole house (is 10 years old now) has been done in this plastic tubing with the brass crimped fittings. The tubing is a pain coz its a
stupid size that nothing else fits.... i was hoping it would be copper tubing as i can get it from work and all the compression fittings... but
nooooooooooo... has to be odd size so you cant use anything else.
I think the individual fittings weren't much in cost and the hose wasn't expensive.
Getting your hands on the tool is the hard part.
pete wood - June 26th, 2006 at 11:59 AM
yep, the tool is very exy. I think the elbows and such are around $5 each. stiil cheap, and they look slick too.
talk to your local plumbing supplier, if you know what you want they could probably make it up for you.
[ Edited on 26-6-06 by pete wood ]
kevo - June 27th, 2006 at 12:05 AM
plastic would not hold the heat like a copper pipe would too,
i wonder if it is made in larger diameters like 40mm, thats usually a common size for plumber crap, thet would suit it to many other vw based
applications haha
i like it!!!
[ Edited on 26/6/2006 by kevo ]
pete wood - June 27th, 2006 at 12:16 AM
yep doesn't transfere heat and doesn't need lagging like metal pipe.
no 40mm sorry, just 16mm and 20mm. it's domestic stuff after all. however, from what I understand, there are far more heavy duty types of plastic
pipe on the market. it's just a case of looking round til you find it. aparently abattiors [spelling?] use some very serious stuff. might be worth
looking into that.
MickH - June 27th, 2006 at 05:52 AM
I thought all new houses built(in QLD anyway) had to use this stuff?? Copper pipe poisons you over time and has limited use nowdays. Good score
Pete..that nylon stuff is bulletproof.
GeorgeL - June 27th, 2006 at 10:56 AM
| Quote: |
Originally
posted by Mick H
I thought all new houses built(in QLD anyway) had to use this stuff?? Copper pipe poisons you over time and has limited use nowdays. Good score
Pete..that nylon stuff is bulletproof.
|
Copper pipe poisons you over time and is of limited use? That's news to me and to millions of other people who have copper pipe and to the plumbers
that are installing it in thousands of new buildings every day!
In fact, there is a booming business in SoCal repiping houses with copper pipe! The plumbing lobby kept copper out of SoCal construction for years
after it was the industry standard in the rest of the US, so all our houses ended up with lousy threaded iron pipe that rusts out after 30 years or
so. Now those same plumbing companies are getting rich fixing the problem that they themselves caused!
We have a few repipe outfits that are using plastic tubing of various sorts, but the problem is that all that stuff is proprietary and made by a
single manufacturer. If that maker goes out of business (and most of them will as the technology shakes out) the folks who used their product will
find themselves with piping that cannot be added to or repaired. Do a Google search on "PB Pipe" and read the horror stories of what happened after
Shell stopped selling the PB resin to the pipe manufacturer.
Personally, I wouldn't pipe my house with any material until the patents on the material, fittings, and tools expire!
Now, as far as using this pipe in automotive applications, the first question is whether it is suited for use with automotive fluids like anti-freeze
and oil at 120C? Some plastics aren't. Also, you need to consider sources of heat other than the coolant. If the pipe is anywhere near exhaust
components it will tend to absorb radiant heat and, since plastic is a poor thermal conducator and has a low specific heat, will get quite hot,
perhaps hotter than the coolant itself.
Food for thought.
George
pete wood - June 27th, 2006 at 03:24 PM
I know it will handle acid and stuff. it's used in lots of places where they clean stuff down with caustic soda and the like. Coolent is the big
question, but my friend the plumber is fairly confident it would be fine.
as for the heat question. this pipe is such a good thermal insulator that in Aust the standard requires NO lagging as the pipe is safe to touch with
90deg fluid going through it, and at a much higher pressure than your engine too. My rad cap limits pressure to 90psi. This stuff is rated
conservatively for 140psi.
and if it screws up, I've lost maybe $30. I can't see what i've got to loose. If it works I've save myself a whole heep of money and drama, if it
doesn't work, I'll rip it out and put in steel.
mackaymanx - June 27th, 2006 at 04:51 PM
90 psi?? try about 7-9 psi for a radiator circuit in a car
[ Edited on 27-6-2006 by mackaymanx ]
MickH - June 27th, 2006 at 07:54 PM
| Quote: |
Originally
posted by GeorgeL
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Mick H
I thought all new houses built(in QLD anyway) had to use this stuff?? Copper pipe poisons you over time and has limited use nowdays. Good score
Pete..that nylon stuff is bulletproof.
|
Copper pipe poisons you over time and is of limited use? That's news to me and to millions of other people who have copper pipe and to the plumbers
that are installing it in thousands of new buildings every day!
George
|
Well now you know!! Might want to tell the millions of other people as well. My comments are relating to the building industry.Copper is a poison.When
used in house pipeing /water systems it leaches toxins,hence the green stain in your white vanity when your tap drips... It is still used in small
quantities due to cost but it is protective coated,therefore under your vanity might be copper pipes as they are easier to "manipulate". The
majority of the plumbing in new houses is this NYLON tubing that Pete is referring to. The copper which is used now is protective coated on the inside
to help minimize leaching. In Queensland no uncoated copper is allowed to be used and due to the expense plumbers use the nylon stuff. As for reacting
with the coolant..i would think it was a fairly stable compound,but with the heat as well.....I'm sure Pete will let us know.I would think it would
be OK as the heat rating is relative to the pressure rating and the operating pressure is a lot lower in his application. ie. 9 psi@90 degrees
compared to 150psi@140 degrees that the hose is rated at. Might be that our health standards differ a lot to the US as well......:beer
GeorgeL - June 28th, 2006 at 09:44 AM
| Quote: |
Originally
posted by Mick H
Might be that our health standards differ a lot to the US as well......:beer
|
Perhaps so. I'll probably be killed in my hopped-up VW (no displacement limitations or engineering approvals here!) before I succumb to copper
sulfate poisoning! 
George
rocknrob - June 28th, 2006 at 06:42 PM
Yeah don't think james Dean cared either George...funny how times change...i grew up in a house with lead headed nails on the roof...maybe why my
brain is so erratic!
MickH - June 28th, 2006 at 07:26 PM
| Quote: |
Originally
posted by rocknrob
Yeah don't think james Dean cared either George...funny how times change...i grew up in a house with lead headed nails on the roof...maybe why my
brain is so erratic!
|
HeHeHe...same here...nothing can ever replace the taste of lead based paint.When we were kids we used to pull the nails outa the roof to make sinkers
for fishing down the river!!!! When i was 4 i used to watch my old man empty cement bags into the large hoppers for the cement trucks over in W.A. We
used to sit outside in the sun for hours when we were kids,watching as he manual handled all those bags...we used to get coated in cement dust and
laugh about it!! Now they tell us it's a carcinogen!!! :o those were the days...:duh
GeorgeL - June 29th, 2006 at 06:37 AM
| Quote: |
Originally
posted by Mick H
| Quote: | Originally
posted by rocknrob
Yeah don't think james Dean cared either George...funny how times change...i grew up in a house with lead headed nails on the roof...maybe why my
brain is so erratic!
|
HeHeHe...same here...nothing can ever replace the taste of lead based paint.When we were kids we used to pull the nails outa the roof to make sinkers
for fishing down the river!!!! When i was 4 i used to watch my old man empty cement bags into the large hoppers for the cement trucks over in W.A. We
used to sit outside in the sun for hours when we were kids,watching as he manual handled all those bags...we used to get coated in cement dust and
laugh about it!! Now they tell us it's a carcinogen!!! :o those were the days...:duh
|
The car James Dean died in was relatively mild compared to some of the cars discussed here. 110HP pushing 1200 pounds isn't much when compared to a
turbo subie in a bug or a Holden in a bus. Power-to-weight ratio didn't matter much when some idiot turned left in front of him at a highway
intersection. That piece of road is still pretty dangerous even with 50 years of improvements.
I think that everyone has a carcinogen story. My dad sprayed asbestos insulation in shipbuilding, worked on brakes and installed asbestos floor tiles
after cutting them with a circular saw. Lung disease did finally get him, but not until he was 92.
I remember when we "silvered" copper pennies with mercury in our palms and cast things out of lead when I was in high school. This was in Nevada,
which is the most heavily-nuclear-bombed place on earth. I suppose that I have plenty to worry about.
To return to topic, I wonder if common CPVC pipe would be useful. It is available in a wide range of sizes (1/4"-24"), rated at 75+PSI at 200F, and
has a wide range of fitting available that don't require special tools. This would seem to be a good material for those long fore-aft runs on
front-radiator installations.
George
rocknrob - June 29th, 2006 at 10:46 AM
yeah i've thought about pvc...i've seen it used in industry...not that i care about how toxic copper is...i don't plan on drinking my coolant:puke
GeorgeL - June 29th, 2006 at 04:47 PM
| Quote: |
Originally
posted by rocknrob
yeah i've thought about pvc...i've seen it used in industry...not that i care about how toxic copper is...i don't plan on drinking my coolant:puke
|
You want CPVC, not PVC. CPVC is the grey stuff that can handle up to 200F. PVC is for cold water use only.
I don't know how far I'd trust CPVC. The temp limits and pressure derating would seem to allow its use for cooling systems, but it seems as though
the mateiral would be pretty close to its limits. Still, the prospect of corrosion-free and easy to fabricate coolant lines is interesting.
I also came across _transparent_ PVC, but unfortunately it is only good for 140F. It would have been nice to watch the coolant circulate!
baybuscamperkid - June 29th, 2006 at 11:04 PM
interesting stuff, any idea whether it will fatigue easily in vibrations/rubbing etc?
GeorgeL - June 30th, 2006 at 08:53 AM
| Quote: |
Originally
posted by baybuscamperkid
interesting stuff, any idea whether it will fatigue easily in vibrations/rubbing etc?
|
Rubbing is hard on piping regardless of type. Plastic is obviously softer, so it is important to support it sufficiently and avoid having it sit on
sharp edges.
Do that, and keep it out of the sun, and CPVC has a life span of several decades. Fatigue is more of a problem with inflexible materials.
George
ElusiveStranger - June 30th, 2006 at 11:08 PM
| Quote: |
Originally
posted by pete wood
as for the heat question. this pipe is such a good thermal insulator that in Aust the standard requires NO lagging as the pipe is safe to touch with
90deg fluid going through it, and at a much higher pressure than your engine too. My rad cap limits pressure to 90psi. This stuff is rated
conservatively for 140psi.
|
Umm, perhaps a good insulator is your enemy in this case.
Copper pipe will dissipate heat from system. Using insulated pipe will decrease your radiated area.
Keep us informed of what happens.
GeorgeL - July 1st, 2006 at 03:48 AM
| Quote: |
Originally
posted by ElusiveStranger
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
as for the heat question. this pipe is such a good thermal insulator that in Aust the standard requires NO lagging as the pipe is safe to touch with
90deg fluid going through it, and at a much higher pressure than your engine too. My rad cap limits pressure to 90psi. This stuff is rated
conservatively for 140psi.
|
Umm, perhaps a good insulator is your enemy in this case.
Copper pipe will dissipate heat from system. Using insulated pipe will decrease your radiated area.
Keep us informed of what happens.
|
It doesn't take all that much insulation to achive this. Consider those paper coffee cups with a thin layer of insulation. They protect the drinker
from burns from the 90C liquid inside.
Although uninsulated piping does give some auxilary cooling effect, that effect is relatively small. Keep in mind that conventional automobiles have
no extra plumbing and get by just fine.
For a heater circuit, insulation would be a good thing, as the goal is to deliver hot coolant to the heater core where it can heat the cabin most
effectively.
George
pete wood - July 2nd, 2006 at 12:50 PM
A quick thought,
I want to fibreglass the pipes into position under my guards. Do ya reckon the resin will effect the plastic in the pipes?
ElusiveStranger - July 3rd, 2006 at 05:11 AM
Dunno. You could always be on the safe side and put a layer of Aluminium foil around the pipe first.