Been considering tonight the advantages of using a WRX motor.

Your mission (aircooled boys) is to convince me otherwise

Radiators suck..............................can't think of anything else though.......:jesus

yeah, true!

And weight...

May or may not be a problem but very low sump.

way way to much weight ova the back end of the car unless you move the motor and gear box forwards as much as possible to make it handle its just gonna make a problem.. And dont ya think its betta to have a true dubby dubby in a dub?

well unless you are restoring a car to original I think this is a good option to look at. Yeh it is a bit of a bitch to set up to start with and yeh it may weigh a few more Kgs but I am sure the extra Hp will make up for that. And of course once it is in there if you Blow it up you can rip down to your local jap importer and get a long motor for 5 or 6 hundred and just wack it in and away you go again for another 100000 trouble free kms.

they don't really go THAT hard anyway. plus you'll be racing in a different class if you drop a wrx motor in. and then there's the pendulum effect of having the extra weight in the wrong place relative to the rear axle. and the mucking around with fuel lines and coolant and compliance etc etc..go aircooled :bounce

It all depends on what you want to acomplish. There's no doubt that the WRX engine will require less ongoing maintenance. Hot VW engines generally require quite a bit of tinkering to keep healthy in comparison.

BUT.... Considering that a VW engine was designed to be able to work on when it is inside the car, exactly how easy is it going to be to do any real maintenance to an EJ20T when it's in your bug with all that plumbing getting in the way. Will anything more than an oil change require the engine to be removed?

Considering the cost of "properly and professionally" converting a VW to run a water cooled EJ20T, I think it would be about the same as turbocharging a VW engine. Performance is about the same too. Both approaches to going fast require upgrades to the fuel system, electrics and engine management.

About the weight, water and radiator argument, there is the complexity of plumbing water from one end of the car and back again. And then, where does you spare wheel go if you put a radiator where the spare used to be?

Last of all, about the performance side of things comparing a EJ20T to a turbo'd vw engine. I can't say i've ever driven a EJ20T powered VW, but I can say for sure that my turbo'd vw is quite a bit quicker than a wrx.

It's a tough decision.... glad i've made the decision already because its a tough one...

Cheers,

So are you saying that your VW 1641 EFI Turbo Bug is "quite a bit quicker than a wrx" is that correct ?

If so I take my hat of to you and would love to see the power output and traction graphs for your bug.

Called me a pessimist but I have my doubts.

I was recently in a WRX when the driver dumped it at 7000 rpm and the traction and acceleration was amazing. Granted I have never been in a bug with the specs of yours though so I could be wrong in thinking the WRX would be quicker.

If your bug is quicker then …… man it must be scary to drive :cool

Ok this is off the subject a bit but iswinkels did you lower the compression ratio on your motor any extra before putting the turbo on?? Did you use a cam and all the right gear for the turbo Aplication?? Just i have access to a turbo and the 1600Tp I have in the buggy I got now is a slug compared to the turbo 1600 I just sold but I do not know any of the stats for the last motor.

Ok I have checked out your website and found the answers to my questions. But i reckon that motor of yours has cost an absolute shit load.

Cam,
What car is it going into? and what's the reason you are building it?
My thoughts, if you can make it do what you want i.e. handle, stop and accelerate then go for it. :thumb

Cheers

If you want a subaru motor get a subaru! I still call a vw with aftermarket parts a vw. you can still just drop the motor and put a stocker back in and you havnt completly *****d the car. Besides, its more fun to build up a motor to your own personal combo and know everything that went into it.
I saw an ej22 in a T3 transporter and the engine fitted nice but the sump was too low in stock form. Dont know about the wrx engines though.
Building a fast VW motor can be expensive though, espescially if you want to do someting a bit out of the ordinary. im up to nearly 6 grand and I dont even have my crank and rods yet!
Sell the vw and buy a normal car

I'm with you on that shifty. I've built motors before and love it. But I'm just running short on time. I think a 944 turbo is beckoning. I can get the loan no worries and it will do all that I need in a car.

My biggest concern IS the weight and also the cooling.I've spoken with some guys who have WRX powered VW's here in Melbourne and they all say that the radiator doesn't like being far away from the heads.

I guess I'm an aircooled nut at heart, which is why I'm still going to build a bug. But cars are just getting faster and faster, seems our engines designed in the 30's are starting to become outdated very quickly. Particularly it seems since the turn of the Millenium.

The car is going to be an oval street/track car. So it will be LOW and also get regular road use.
I've looked into dry sumps for the WRX motor, no one offers them so looks like a fab up job, ad to that the conversion costs. Rebalance of the motor if I get a new flywheel for the conversion (don't want an unbalanced motor chucking out over 200 ponies) and all the little nicks and nacks.
Oh... And then theres insurance for a converted 50 year old vehicle with a modern turbo motor in it :| Not to mention that I'm 22 and currently serving a 12 month license suspension for speeding :cussing

hrrm... A 944 is looking more and more attrative, hey?

How does a dry sump system work? And what are the advantages/disadvantages?

Speedster; check this link out http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1133539 

The type 1 configuration by CB is the best I've seen. Not only does it eliminate the sump (or deep in this case) all together, but does'nt have hoses running under the case.

Dry Sumping is the best of the best way to make sure your oil supply is where it's needed all the time. Plus it leaves no oil in the pan to be frothed up by the crank and also can save some HP by not having oil always in the motor for your reciprocating parts to turn against. Not to mention does away with the low hanging pan under a conventional motor.

Drysump scavenges oil from the sump and or other areas in the engine, pumps it into a tank, then pumps from the tank back into the oil galleys so you run with a minimum of oil actually in the engine, and you can run a bigger capacity tank than you would a sump. Theres a bit of plumbing involved, but it also stops starvation during hard cornering and the like when the pickup in a sump may be sucking air.

Do you run ur existing oil pump for oil pressure and the scavenge pump driven from the engine? Or do you use some sort of block off plate in the original oil pump position and run one of those double pumps for both pressure and scavenge? The sump must have lines in and out? Anyone know of a schematic on the web so I can get my mind around this?:P

just found one
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question331.htm&url=http://www.razorperformance.com/info.htm:thumb

there are dry sump kits for EJ's inc the EJ20 T so I don't know why you say no one offers them.

I will be taking 75 mm of teh sump on the EJ soon as it goes in my bus and expect no issues at all. that will sit it at about the same height as type 4 with a small amount of tilt on teh box.

Andy, your right. The engine has cost a shit load! But i'd estimate it would have cost the same to produce a good result with a WRX engine conversion. By good result, I mean something simular to what I've got.

In its current form (which isn't mentioned on the website) is the third evolution of the turbo setup. I've changed the turbo to a GT25-320 dual ball bearing turbo, and added a gated boost controller, and adjusted the boost to 16lb. I'd estimate easily 190hp in favorable conditions (cool evening).

And Buggy Brad, your right it is quite scary sometimes. It's raining heaps up here in cairns at the moment. Traction is quite a problem, I have to be real careful. While driving back from the shops and accelerating in a straight line I hit 7lb boost and lost traction badly. Went sideways bigtime and accidently fish tailed for about 30 meters... Woops... But when it's dry it launches very well. The wrx I beat was at the lights (as usual), but was a rolling start so traction wasn't an issue.

I'll be doing some dyno tuning after I do my body swap, and fit the subary legacy water to air intercooler. I'm taking a page out of the fisher buggies turbo dragster too, and am adding an ice block container inline with the water plumbing. Should be interesting to see the results, but i'm hoping for about 215rwhp @ about 6000 RPM. Thats reaching the upper limit of what my gearbox can handle, so I doubt i'll be pushing it harder than that till I upgrade it.

As for the 7000 RPM launch in the WRX, yes they are VERY impressive. Traction with the AWD is awesome, but do that too many times and you'll be replacing clutches quite frequently! I know a few wrx owners, one in particular that is on his third clutch now I think! Then when you upgrade the clutch, you start breaking diffs. Like hotting up VW's, its never ending with WRX's too.

Cheers,

I've driven some WRX's and it feels as though they're bogging down, not really hammering away. I prefer the RS Audi's and EVO's that allow wheelspin in favour to burntout clutches.

Brad there is dry sump kits about I seen one a off roader over here .I give the guy a call and ask about it ,

I recall a oil pump from a Plane in there I have a photo here some where ?? the pan is collection pot .O the motor blew up at start no oil ,the pump did not prime mmm racers hey !

if you want bang for buck the EJ20t is the way to go.
Not only that but there are literally hundreds of aftermarket parts available for it right here in OZ.
300 reliable hp is on tap easily and more can be got if you want to go further.
Not only that but you can buy one that has been quality built by the factory with less than 100k on it.
You can't say that about VW turbo engines.
However you will have issues with cooling and gearboxes.
I got quoted between 4.5 and 6K for a beefed gbox and that was 3 years ago.
Also, have you seen the valla race videos of the VWRX?
Even with big tyres it was struggling to get all the power down on a smooth dry track.
Either way you better start saving.

to Ian,
If what you say about your turbo beetle is true, it is a monster,
or there are some very slow WRX's about.

Yeah, I love the VWRX vid! Wicked car.

only problem with dry sump pumps for street cars is that they are bulky. depends how manby stages you run but the ones I have seen stick out a few inches.

When mine is on the road later in the year I'll let you know if it was all worth it. All I know is it is a hell of alot of work to do to a bug that which has been done to mine.

If you want a low car forget it have you seen how the exhaust will have to run