I just read in Wheels Magazine that the new Commodre 3.6 V6 has a 85.6 stroke and a 94 bore.

Do you think Stan Pobjoy will do a steroid version? LOL

CYA, CT

Stroke is too long. LOL

If it was 69mm maybe.


God I hope this thread stays a joke....

Oh man, here come the U2U's, e-mails and phone calls. Thanks alot CT :P

Isn't that their new DOHC, 1 coil per plug motor? Wonder if it's another old Buick motor too

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Cam]

Subaru heads on a turbo'd type 4.

Food for thought.

Got any more info on that one Doug?

Oh yeh PLEASE put up some more info Doug

Ok, but this is trusting my memory. I'm pretty sure some of this will still be around on the web too.

The car was built in the early 90's I think, in the UK for Autocrossing. It is a T4 block, with custom barrels and the 16valve quadcam subaru EJ20T heads (they would be Liberty / Legacy RS Turbo vintage), a big T4 turbo and injection, with the porsche fan and shroud. I believe it made around the 400hp mark.

As well as the motor, the bug also had a 4WD conversion. I believe it was pretty successful in the Autocross scene.

The heads are an interesting conversion. I believe (although I dont know) that the EA82 single cam heads are also 92 bores ? possibly not. I have no idea of the bore spacing, although surely if the heads are on it must be fairly close ? Cant imaging moving combustion chambers in the heads sideways to suit the pistons position on the crank. I do think that they had to weld up some / all of the original head stud holes and drill new ones to suit, also they had to put a 'plate' on the bottom of the heads to seal the water chambers, as they kept the water cooling on the heads (a 'la Porsche le mans cars).

I'll so a little trawling and try and find the web site.

This is all I could find at short notice.

http://www.superbeetlesonly.com/articles/battlewagen.html 

I actually looked into using commodore v6 aftermarket forged pistons for my race motor as they are the only other motor apart from pinto ford motors that use a 96.5 ish bore and I wanted an oversize 96.7 so I could reuse my autocraft cylinders. Ended up finding some JE's made for VW at the right price so I scrapped the plan.

You are very welcome. I dont suppose anyone reading this would have eiither a subaru head they could measure the bore spacings on, or a subaru technical manual ?

try this address, if it's no good I can measure plug center to plug center on my ej25

http://www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/files/SAE_boxer.pdf 

Pete - wow ! that SAE paper is unreal. I have scaled off the head gasket drawing and the bore spacing come out roughly 109mm. Keep in mind I am scaling from a picture that is only 2 inches wide !

Now, this compares with about 112mm for a VW type 1 head (no idea for a type 4 - can anyone help out ?), so the two must be fairly close !!!!!

A bottom plate for the coolant to circulate through would be very easy. other issues to solve would then include;

Oil supply and return.
Rmoval of lifters from vw block.
Plugging up pushrod tube holes.
Inlet and exhausts and plumbing (cannibalise the subaru ones ?)
Cam drives, belts and tensioners.
Clearance in car for heads.
Sealing vw cylinders on to Subaru heads (although in the article they said they used jawa liners and porsche fins I think).

Anyone got a pair of old EJ20 or EJ22 heads they no longer want ? :thumb

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Doug Sweetman]

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Doug Sweetman]

I didn't hink there'd that much difference in them. From what I know about the earlier subie engines, there almost direct ripoffs of the VW only with water jackets.
As far as fitting the twin cam heads goes, I'm astounded someone is offering some sort of kit by now. I thought about it ages ago. With the new alloy type one cases the sky is the limit power wise.
Maybe you could come up with a kit. I am sure off road guys would lap it up and the drag scene is just waiting for something like it I reckon.
I'd be interested. even in a NA application it would transform a type1 motor. Just imagine. Not only that, but there is a variable cam timing version available on the NA ej20. Instant v-tech VW!!! :thumb

I dont know why you would speed all the time doing the above ?? but some do ! *** like ME !

what do mean by that man?

4 cam sounds good, but you'd need to take it one step further I reckon or else use and EJ22 and lap up (pardon the pun) the cooling advantages of water as well. The 911 head conversion was done first time 30+ years ago that I know of, which is still 2 valve but single OHC and twin plug crossflow hemi combustion chamber. The next step would be something like solenoid actuated valves, big money to develop, but then again so is an air cooled 4 valve DOHC head (the 356 quad cam motor was only 2 valve, contrary to common belief). I think when looking at that much development I'd just forget about a beetle and do something like what speedster 356 did with his spyder or step into something completely different, Porsches, Nissans, BMW's, etc... Or even open wheeled hillclimb specials.

[quote][i]Originally posted by Cam[/i]
4 cam sounds good, but you'd need to take it one step further I reckon or else use and EJ22 and lap up (pardon the pun) the cooling advantages of water as well. The 911 head conversion was done first time 30+ years ago that I know of, which is still 2 valve but single OHC and twin plug crossflow hemi combustion chamber. The next step would be something like solenoid actuated valves, big money to develop, but then again so is an air cooled 4 valve DOHC head (the 356 quad cam motor was only 2 valve, contrary to common belief). I think when looking at that much development I'd just forget about a beetle and do something like what speedster 356 did with his spyder or step into something completely different, Porsches, Nissans, BMW's, etc... Or even open wheeled hillclimb specials. [/quote]

there are some advantages.
Like if the class you race in specifies the same manufacturer for the engine (block) you use, like some of the club rally classes, the subie twin cam head trick is equivalent to some of the special twin cam head setups available for 2l pinto blocks in MK2 escorts.
However for most everything else the whole ej20 is probably the way to go.

[Edited on 17-5-2004 by pete wood]

[Edited on 17-5-2004 by pete wood]

[Edited on 17-5-2004 by pete wood]

[Edited on 17-5-2004 by pete wood]

Thanks for the info Doug. I have seen pics of this motor before, but not heard many details about it.

To me, something similar to that motor would be a dream come true; an air-cooled VW motor utilising some of the best modern technology available to keep up with the Jones's :thumb

speaking of overhead cams, have any of u seen this? its in development

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=70405




movies as well:

http://members.home.nl/r.vd.meulen/layout1.avi
http://members.home.nl/r.vd.meulen/layout4.avi

I actually didnt read the whole SAE paper until today - the true bore spacing is 113mm, compared to 112mm for VW !!!!!!!!!!

I think some form of adaptor plate to 1. Contain the cooling water and 2. Adapt to the VW cylinder sealing method. would be needed. The thickness of this plate would have to be carefully controlled - enough to be rigid enough to seal against water pressure, but thin enough not to decrease compression ratio massively. Although (to an extent) you could counter any compression ratio decrease by shortening the cylinder (how close does the piston come to the top of the cylinder at TDC ?) or using short stroker pistons (ie B pistons).

You would have to run an external oil feed to each head - this could be done by using an external cooler and full flow filter, and taking a feed off from this line. Also, the oil flow from each head could be gravity drained from the head through a line and into the sump via a pushrod tube hole. The other three on each side could be plugged somehow.