Hi All

Obviously the best compensating spring you can get is one made yourself; if I had the time and skill I would have a similar set-up to Greg Mackie's

But I wanted to know what people thought was the best "off the shelf" compensating spring

From what I know there are 3 brands you can go with

EMPI - Not to keen...
Sway Away - ?
CB Performance

My honest opinion is they all look a bit flimsy for my money the best would appear to be CB Perf's

Is there any that I've missed?

See respective links below

http://www.vwparts.net/MB9615.html 

http://www.swayaway.com/VW_2.php#CAMBERSTOP 

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=463 

Flimsy when compared to Greg's



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O.K. Shaun, I'll give you a hand to make one.

You don't have to if you don't want to greg . I already feel bad about those siezed bolts on the spring-plates from the last time you helped.

I know I don't have to, but that sump extension will get torn off if you don't do SOMETHING.

It's funny how something called positive camber is actually a negative if positive were a positive my car would be "set-up" perfectly!

although if you have 2 positives this makes a negative....

Cheers for the help greg I really appreciate it; as a gift I'll get you some more Vee tyres as i'm off to Bathurst this saturday to watch them run

Now I'm confused.........are you thinking negative, or is it just positive thinking We may need an engineer to sort this out

One bloke said "My glass is half full."

Another bloke said "My glass is half empty."

An engineer said " That container is TWICE as big as it needs to be!"

"are you thinking negative, or is it just positive" ---Greg,this could end up being "terminal"

Careful Gary, in S.A. you could be 'charged' for making comments like that.

Assault and BATTERY, perhaps?

Is that a ferry terminal or a bus terminal?

would be a bus terminal as only strut front end cars need ferry terminals to dock!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, look what we're doing to Shaun's thread....... Hi-jacking SPRINGS to mind! We should stop, otherwise he will want COMPENSATING.

Well I don't have any EMPIthy for the way it's going.

If you are REALLY serious, and you are not just "compensating" for softer rear springs, and you have already installed a heavier front SwayBar, and you definitely don't want your swing axles to "jack", and you want to adjust and dial-in your rear spring-rate, in both directions, and you want to take advantage of the current best Aussie Dollar rate for about twenty years, I would recommend a Vic Skirmants Camber REGULATOR.
http://356enterprises.com/home/?page_id=38 

The three COMPENSATOR units discussed above are SINGLE acting, whereas the Camber Regulator is DOUBLE acting and FIXED at the centre.

I recommend to do a Google search >Skirmants camber compensator< - or - >Skirmants camber regulator

A good example of this:- http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=122567&postdays=0&postorder...

Vics background: He has raced and prepared 356 racers professionally for about 35 years. He has won the Index of Performance across ALL categories of ALL motor sport in the USA over a calendar year, racing a 356 in historics.

A single run of a version these regulators were manufactured locally some years ago. They were all snapped up pretty quickly and not produced again.

oldtub356

those camber regulators are identical to the type that the histoic formula vees' are running they all attached to the end of the axles the same way.

The compensating spring is NOT a 'silver bullet', and won't work unless it is used in conjunction with other mods. You need the whole package, Shaun. As I said before, I am happy to help - give me a yell when you're ready to attack the job.

There are many factors to consider when setting up a swing-axle with a comp.spring, including what will the car be used for? After that is determined, will a LSD be used? Then rear torsion bar rates, front anti-roll bar, shocks, wheels, tyres, etc., all need to be matched up to the comp. spring. It's not rocket science, but you must do a bit of planning and homework, as just whacking a spring on will probably do bugger-all.

Cheers, Greg

The Camber Regulator from Skirmants, comes with ball/heim/rose joint and a longer bolt for attachment to the rear, lower, SpringPlate mounting hole.
One end, while adjustable, is intended as a fixed position while the other end uses a left hand/right hand thread shackle adjustment.
The Regulator "rocks" on the centre mount, pulling up and/or pushing down. Everything is positively mounted with no chance of any movement, other than the spring.

The "road" version, consists of a single spring plate and the "race" version, has a second plain springplate (not rolled to take a pin and urethane bush)
which is attached to the first plate using a pair of stainless screw type hose connectors plus the high tensile mounting bolt (12-14mm). The spring(s) mount positively the mounting frame - as they can be set-up for neutral initial effect, or for positive or negative, as Greg says, depending upon the intended use and approach that you favour.
I would say that all of the longer term 356 racers in the US use these - some new boys use "Z"-Bars for while and then convert. The Euro mob also use them almost exclusively.

The historic racing in the States varies between different conferences, but the Production'E' guys (the fastest versions) do rolling starts, so, 70MPH first gears and run very close ratios up the top end, rev out to 8k these days, pull about 180 engine HP from 1640cc(+ 1mm overbore). They also use widish wheels with modern sticky rubber - so they have their suspension set-up hard and flat.
If you use the same settings for original historic specs - roadable tyres and 5" wide max, they set-up for more and softer suspension travel, less positive camber etc - if they use the harder settings, they tend to slide off the track too readily.

There are about 20 opinions as to how things should be set-up - Vic tends to talk in shorthand - he needs to keep one season ahead of his customers.

I believe that ideally there needs to be a different set-up for every track ie Wakefield would be much softer than Philip Island.

Again, as Greg says, there are heaps of preferences and opportunities for set-up - I'm just amazed at how many different set-ups different people think is correct for them - maybe driving style comes into it.

My approach is to get the front correct first and then match the rear to it. I know in the early days Volkswagen supplied some Beetles with "ralley" springs up front - an extra spring in the stack I presume.
Every time that i have seen an old Dub die - I wondered it that one had the hard springs that needed snavelling.
The rear springs are available in three different factory lengths - this gives an opportunity to adjust spring rates (from memory from the longest to the shortest, it is equivalent to going up/down 2mm diameter on the same diameter spring. If it is seen that harder springs are the go, Weltmeister short/hollows save a bit of weight back there where it matters.
When Porsche went to the CamberCompensator, they had thinned up the rear springs to make the fronts work a bit harder. I think they also found that the Compensator, while doing some of the work of the rear springs/spring plates, that they could reliably take 1mm of the thickness of the spring plate (as it was doing less work.) Then the Spyder found that it was quite happy running with springplates with about x20 12mm holes drilled (which also looks really cool) so, a few opportunities to shed a bit of weight added by the Compensator.

Where does it end??

Lance.

Hey Lance, one day [or week, month?] we should discuss the best way to set up the suspension on a link-pin, swing-axle Beetle. The whole concept is fascinating, but I'm sure it would bore most people here to death!

Cheers, Greg

I'm very interested in it all; no matter how boring!

Greg I'll let you know when i'm ready to do the spring; my first race i've planned on is at easter with FOSC (if your interested in coming) going to run in the regularity again and see if I can't pip the mini that got me last time! (4 points from memory)

Thanks for everyones help on this the car is a slow work in progress and is getting set-up and then will be restored once it "works" which is dangerous because it may never be right!

Cheers

Shaun

ps the car is not going to be road registered again (I think) as there is too much money involved in getting things right for the road

Aaaah Greg! I love it when you 'talk dirty' - LinkPins, SwingAxles, DrumBrakes, OldAgePension - what next?...........CrossPlyTyres, PotHoles, Bridget Bardot???

You still on for Wednesday?

Yeah Lance, the Cooper is in the trailer, ready to go. This time I won't have to worry about fuel economy - made a bigger tank!

See you at Wakefield Park?

Quote:

Originally posted by HappyDaze Hey Lance, one day [or week, month?] we should discuss the best way to set up the suspension on a link-pin, swing-axle Beetle. The whole concept is fascinating, but I'm sure it would bore most people here to death! Cheers, Greg

All that work VW did to make the swing axle and all us racers types make it behave like a beam axle .... go figure.

Quote:

Originally posted by HappyDaze You take what you have to work with, and do whatever you have to do, to get that outside rear wheel [and tyre contact patch] at the correct angle.

Thanks very much for reminding me!

Hopefully, the 356 Porsche drums [now fitted] will be up to the job.