Fellas.... I have a question here that will surely upset some people..... But thats what happens with opinions!

Anyway.... Some of you guys may know that Im building my long awaited street turbo engine.... But i have been getting an itch to race a little harder with this car....

Next year, when my study is over (for a while at least!) I plan to build the 2276 for my ragtop... I have been collecting the parts for this engine for a few years now and I have everything I need to complete it.....

But what I have been thinking of doing is building this engine as more of a drag engine, than a street donk.... the longblock will remain the same, but the induction side may take a change....

I have all the bits to build nice tidy blow through EFI/intercooled street turbo engine, but with some minor changes I could just go more lowtech and build a drawthrough intake....

I know the Volkomen guys (among others) in Melbourne build'em old school and get great results and I know all the 'Woolongong Wizards' have gone the intercooled/EFI route, and produced very nice fast road cars, but I still see all the top street turbo cars are doing it drawthrough.... Can the HiTech way get me there or is there a reason why all the top street turbos are sticking with the old style set-ups?

Now I know the drawthrough deal will get me a more powerfull drag type engine and the blowthrough will far more streetable, but really I have to ask myself....

'What sort of street car do I really want?'

I want a balls-out V8 killer that can be street driven.... Thats what I want!... potential for 10's! (if I can learn to drive that fast! :-).... Thats what I want!.... I dont really care about economy, but reliablity is important....

So guys, what do you 'forced induction' pro's think?.... Which way is best to get the best bang for buck?

Tough question I know..... Call me a dickhead, I can take it.... I know this question is hard to answer.... But Im willing to listen to all ideas, before I build this engine.... I can go either way... But either way.... I want to got fast!

Hi Humpty

How long do you think a carby fed non intercooled street turbo will last, also how nice will it be to drive. Leighs 2007cc turbo can be driven on the street by the proverbial little old lady but do the numbers on the strip. Look at Wayne Penroses results, he has said in the past that his car was very streetable with EFI and intercooling.

Dont live in the past when you have the chance to build something 21st century that will last.

Steve

go EFI,intercooling but go with Altronics or Motec there not that exspensive when you throw 8to12k at a motor.

I hear what you are saying Steve, and I have always held the same opinion, but I have not seen a really fast HiTec street turbo bug on Oz.... Anyone (!) can do 12's these days and that most of the HiTec cars have done as far as I know..... Tell me Im wrong, but why has all these hi-dollar dubs only done average numbers?... I know most of them are streetcars first and they are more inclinded to circuit/hillclimb work than drag racing, but why has there not been a seriously fast drag car that has built around this HiTec concept?..... No disrespect here, Im not trying to piss people off... I have been for rides in a few of these cars (Keith's old oval and Shimo's bug) and they are freakin' awesome street machines that drive really well and can do it all day long, but all the really fast street/strip cars that I know of do it the old way.... Im not saying its better, but I would like to see some hardcore results.... I would like to know, how often these LowTec Dubs get a rebuild, what sort of driving so they actually do and why one method is more popular than the other....

I have already got my EFI management sorted.... I've gone with the Megasquirt MSIIv3 (with boost control) and the EDIS crank fire ignition.... Its all realtime laptop programable.....So at least that part is sorted if I go that way....!!!

Hello everyone,
I just got back from dynoing the turbo motor at Dave and Judy Kawells,astonished me what I learned.All the hype you hear and read about is bogus,They will tell you any and everything you want to know about turbocharging a VW.They have not done a few turbo motors,but thousands,and dynoed them, so they KNOW what works and does not.You have to look at the turbo setup,mine has 8.2 to 1 compression,how many street motors are that low?So my answer to you is,a turbo is absolutely streetable with the right parts and common sense.My motor is a 2275,look at my post,all the externals are Kawell,Dave guided me through the internal mods and he likes to help people.The biggest reason people use a draw through is cost,about 500.00 for carb and manifold(usdollrs),compared to fuel injection.I am no expert,but email Dave@KAWELLRACING.com ,he is one

I will get in early before this turns into a crisis.
The difference with all these comparisons is that the EFI setup MUST be tuned and dynoed so the results should be better.
The carby setups generally get bolted onand forgotten, and so the results never give the potential that IS there.
If you tune the thing properly, the only advantages will be :
the intercooling will allow you to run less octane for a given boost,
the atomisation using EFI nozzles will give better drivability,
The cylinder head will flow more air with larger runner sizes that an air-only manifold can use, like an EFI system.
There are many things that other people will bring up, but I would say,
use the EFI and intercooler and what ever you decide,
tune that sucker properly and only use the correct octane fuel for what you intend to do.
I think that a 10 second carby turbo is going to need the best racing fuel you can buy, (10 dollars per litre?) and methanol is no good for a carby turbo draw thru because of the volume going thru the compressor wheel slows it down.
I think you could potentially do the EFI intercooled 2276 with pump fuel and 10second power with high teens boost.
I look at it like this, a carby 10 second engine is a waste of an EFI intercooled 9 second engine.
Of course this does not factor the initial expense or racing fuel bill.
Both types will need dyno time, or you may as well throw you parts in the bin.

Its not turbo related but its something to think about, I read an article on EFI vs Carbs for the mountain motor IHRA prostockers and i think it was by sonny leonard and he was quoted as saying he cannot match the peak horsepower of his carb setups with efi yet but the efi car is faster on the track and revs quicker through the rev range.

If youve got the efi gear you may as well use it and keeping a draw through setup hidden isnt as easy.

I completely agree with everything Dangerous and Shifty said,hell,I wish I had EFI,I'd surely be using it.I would expect 250- 300 plus hp in street trim,400 w/race gas and 17psi boost on your 2275 motor.I'd like a ride in that combo on the street one time myself,hahahah I have never used programmable EFI on a VW,does yours have a boost sensitive enrichment system to richen it up under boost?

simon, ian swinkles of this forum has had pretty good success with turbo injected dub engines, i mean, getting a 1641 that is good for low 13/high 12's is no easy feat. and now he has his turbo 2332cc injected engine.

should maybe talk to him about it.

Anthony

If I could make two very important suggestions,Buy the best rod bolts you can afford,ARP has a new rod bolt that equals the Carillo bolts,it's called 625+ ,Summit sells them part # 300-6708.The other thing is head bolts,I used RACEWARE,my heads did not lift on the dyno under very extreme boost(10 MM).I want to see everyone do good with the VW's out there .I was also told that the new SCAT rods are very impressive,have 3/8 bolts if you have not already purchased rods.

Just Wait, the Debiasi's here in Sth Aus have got something coming up that should run your times and yes its EFI. Before this he had a 1915 that did a 11.88 on a 38 degree day so the times could of been lower. Yes it was very quick and daily driven.
You'll never look back once EFI.
T54

Hey Humpty,
Did you get my email regarding the arrival of your next shipment?

What I replaced was arp 2000 rod bolts,changed to the 625+ because Dave Kawell suggested it.I bought the head studs directly from RACEWARE,it was the same price from other venders ,but I got to talk with the guy who made them.If possible,get Dave BUTLER to set your rods up with a stretch guage,very important

yeah i agree about what you were saying in regards to ians car but from talking to him lately seems he is only interested in making it go fast in a straight line now so i look forward to the progress he has with that car.


Anthony

[ Edited on 18-7-2006 by 71superbug ]

O.K
I tried to not get involved in this one because so many people have an opinion about this one. I have done both combo's ,street and race draw throughs with a webers and with Holleys. Draw throughs with E.F.I. Blow throughs with carbs, E.F.I, with and without intercoolers, water to air intercoolers, NOS, and different fuels.
Being a very strong believer of D/through I built an E.F.I D/through engine with extra injectors at the ports. After tuning the D/through on the dyno, I switched to B/through and re-mapped it. WOW, an extra 20 kw at the wheels at the same boost, and a much sweeter sound. So yes more in power E.F.I. BUT it needs to be non restrictive, in manifolds, pipes, intercoolers and throttle bodies. So to do it all right it costs and it takes a lot of tuning to get it right. If your thinking of using things off other cars to keep it affordable and it's NQR your wasting your time, you need to do it right and spend the money on the good stuff.(some factory stuff is very good and useable) If your not going to go big, a D/through done for much less and properly will blow your doors away! So if it means going fast and not delaying it for another year, go D/through and have some fun.(like you said look how fast the Yanks are going) If you set up the fuel system right, a D/through is very reliable and the fuel going through the turbo cools the hot compressed air. I also inject methanol through the carb on boost. In B/through the heat is like a blow torch and you are relying on the intercooler to take the heat out, and as I said earlier, if it's not done properly your in trouble. Plus you can not just inject methanol into it, you must use a better fuel. It all depends how much power you need to make, some people just think they can turn up the boost and run numbers and are quick to criticise D/through, but how many people speak from experience?

Thank you Nick for your input.... I was hoping you'd have something to say.... You guys are the Oz leaders in the D/Through domain, there is no doubt.... Total respect for what you have done..... A few of the 'in the know' US guys I know have been raggin' on me about going the HiTec route for sometime, and now that Im finally at the stage of having most of the components together and ready to build, I am questioning, which way to go.... I see the value in both directions. I guess the real quetsion still needs to be anwsered.... "What do I really want from the car?".... The truthful reply is a compromise over 'power V drivability V reliability' issues.... I like to go around corners from time to time and I like to hard in a straightline too..... This car is mostly a 'fair weather' car in that is will be street driven most of the time, but with the intent of throwing it down a drag strip (I have my SubiNotch for corners)..... I could go the way you have done right now and built an 'LoTec' (no disrepect ) and got hell fast with max effect, or I could stick to the OG plan and go 'HiTec'..... I guess Ill have to figure this one out on my own.....

Thanks for all the input here guys..... I knew this would stir things up a bit as it is a very contentious issue, but one that I feel clears a few points/misconseptions up, and one that was handled very well by all who contributed....

Cheers....

The guys at PARADISE run EFI on their dragster,if they could get the same power and dependibility from d/through,I am sure they would have it on the paridise express.They run TURBO,EFI,And alot of NOS!!!!

I think they were using the motec exhaust anilyser this was a couple of years ago.

If you have all the parts to go E.F.I then do it, you will make more power have better driveability and better economy. My latest project is E.F.I. and I love the technology and options. But I will not say a bad word about D/through. Less plumbing, cost, tunning,weight,and time with that old skool grunt!
I think that with B/through E.F.I. you MUST run a water to air intercooler. So that meens a box with water, pumps, coolers, plumbing and all that space. BUT it's worth it in the end, so if you can be bothered, do it.

Yeah... I have the intercooler options under study right now... I have a R Spec (Gold box) RS Liberty intercooler and radiator here, but Im looking at the PWR 'Log' cooler too. Julian Edgar also has some interesting ideas I am looking at..... I feel you are correct with the drag applications as they at this moment... The 'simple' options gives you max for minimum buck.... But at the cost of economy, drivability and possibly longevity. EFI (& intercooled) engines take longer to build and may need more work to tune, but when its all said and done, the advantages make the hassle worth while.... And I don't mind a 'little' fabrication.... What I can't do myself, can be done by some very good mates, I have the idea's and don't mind the research.... I just have to wait until my studies are over and I can get back to that 2276.... Got plenty to do.... A straight axle conversion for a mate, and IRS conversion for my Notch and and EJ25 conversion for that and I really must finish that EG33 powered Transporter!... Aaahhh the challenges we set!

Amen brother

seagull