New to Vee Dubs and am just after some engine options for upgrading the original stcocker. have a few old guys at work that used to race buggs and love the 21-80 and know a fair bit about them but they dont really know to much about type 3's. Could this engine be fitted/modified to suit my type 3?
Or any recomendations on what would be good. Want to keep it vw at this stage porche/subbi/rotor mayby later.

I'm of the persuasion that there's potential in a Type3 engine, since it's pretty much the same as a beetle's, and most people are happy with a bore and mild tune.

I'll be sending mine Stan Pobjoy's way when the time comes...

http://www.stanpobjoy.com.au/ 

Have an 1835 in my type3 with twin 44 empi carbs, a quite wild cam, extractors and balanced. Still playing with it and need better carbs than the empi but it gets along very well and am enjoying the difference from the standard engine.

Cheers guys. i'll look into both, Do you have any picks dandy?

The usual thing is to just build a bigger motor.

Popular upgrade is 90.5mm cylinders that makes a stock motor into 1776cc. Then you can add cams, carbs and any number of other new parts depending on your budget. If you decide to start spending more money on other stuff like heads, a new block or crankshafts then yoy may as well get a bigger crankshaft to up the 1776 to 2007cc (78mm crank) or 2110cc (82mm crank) since the crankshaft usually cost the same regardless of size.

The more power you make the more you need to spend on upgrading other things.

If I were to build a motor (I wish I could) then it would be the 2007cc. At about 130hp this is about 2.5 times the power of a stock 1600 without going overboard on cost while keeping it reliable and strong. Street car not race car approach.

Your 2180cc is a 92mm bore with an 82mm stroke crank.

Not to mention generally speaking the more power in a type 1/3 engine the less they last.

a type 4 engine is the best option in a type 3 if you want some good torque/power.

Thanks Cruiser, sounds like a good starting point and gives me what im after first up, fast street. didnt want to go crasy first try. Will that require any work to be done to the gear box, running gear at all

vlad01, how hard is it to put a type 4 into a type 3? and what work does a type 4 require? or are they all pretty much the same? also does this require anything to be done to the gearbox/running gear

I'd personally avoid going bigger than 1916cc in a type 3 application due to cooling issues. Stay with the Type 1 engine, and a few mild mods should give you the perfomance you're looking for.

^ thats exactly why I recommend a type 4 as they can handle huge power and displacement without overheating in a pancake layout.

I haven't done it before myself but I have seen plenty of these conversions done on the samba. Talk to supaninja on that forum he has well documented it and knows the process very well.

66deluxe on here might be able to help you out regarding type 4 engines and good parts can be bought from Jake Raby but he doesn't like selling stuff just to anyone.

With type 4 you need to green stuff up front but it worth it as they are bomb proof and will be reliable, type 3 engine can be done much cheaper but if you ask me they just don't cut it in the long run just like a type 1.

Suby is good choice but is a pain in the ass, time consuming, radiator placement issues and much harder to do.

theres someone on here today asking what they should sell a type 4 engine for, maybe you guys need to chat, nothing wrong with a stock type 3 engine in my eyes

i got my mech to remove all the non stock bits from my engine and return it to stock when i purchased my car, im never in a hurry and the type 3 seems pretty bullet proof

yeah I am never in a hurry to slow down

every time I ever drove my type 3s they were driven to the absolute limit, which equated to my daily bomb having its throttle being pressed down 5mm

There are plenty of people on the Samba who would argue that the type 3 cooloing is no problem and is in fact better than the type 1 cooling.

If beetles are running all sorts of bigger engines then a type 3 can too.

You can always add an external oil cooler and a good idea to add a temp guage too especially if you have just invested in building a motor.

I think you can build a performance engine for a type3 but I don't think it's as easy as a type1 or even a type2.

I am a fan of smaller bore engines for the street. That is type3 engine and type4 engines. I think there will not be as much heat soak into the heads and stronger barrels. Then if you have the money for a "Quality" stroker crank that good as well. I think the good companys built their engines that way including Okrasa/Oettinger,berg, raby and even the Porsche 356 engine was like that. This is a can of worms but I think the engine will last longer. Larger bore will always make more power but for how long? A type3 is heavy and even if the engine does cool as well as a type1 the engine is going to be working harder so a small bore makes sence to me.

The other problems with a performance type3 is getting the induction system under the hatch with cold air to it and like all VWs a good exhaust. This will all apply to a type3 or type4 conversion.

With performance carbs you have to run short manifolds that hurt torque. Then you have to run short air cleaners that hurt high revs. With a standard type3 induction system it takes cold air from the Vents into the engine. With performance carbs and sports type air cleaners it take hot air off the exhaust and cooling system. Even the standard type3 fuel pump has a heat shield on it because it is so hot at the top of the engine. A type1 and type2s have a sealed engine bay so you do not as much problems with heat and you can run long manifolds and big air cleaners. If you want to get rid of the hatch and make a big box or put a fire wall in your Notch or fasty at the back seat you could have good manifolds, air cleaners and even cold air but it's work and not easy.

Also the type3 fan does not like revs ( Berg said 5800 in the day)

Then the exhaust? Standard is great for the standard engine but it's the first thing that has to change if you want more performance. Do you want to keep heaters? If you do, you have to keep standard inlet and exhaust valves. Then if you go no heaters and big valves, big bore type3 exhausts are not cheap.

If you want an engine that will last and give you value for money, you will have address these problems. More money may get you around some problems but a mild engine is probably what you will end up with.

Go to the raby site and have a look for type3s in the list of conversion engines. It not there because when you think about it, to do it right it's not easy.

i own a type 3 with a 1916. Its a stan pobjoy engine big bore base 1916 fitted with 36 idfs and a large exhaust. i would have to say its an awesome piece of gear. it does have external cooler and filter on it and does not exceed temps i have previously had in a big bore beetle engine. it is effortless in accelaration and brings a smile instantly everytime your foot gets heavy. as always it comes to available coin and what exactly your after. to some people a 1600 with an exhaust seems to suffice.

I have a type 3 with a type 4 engine. I didnt do the conversion and bought it like that. Seems to go okay, but I never driven a stock type 3 so not sure how much quicker it is.

Looking into putting some webers on it, as the carbs need replacing in any case and need a new choke (having problems with warm starts which is a pain in the arse, any suggestions?).

Anyone know if standard webers for a type 4 engine will fit into into the engine bay without modification? and what do you think the performance would be like?

tacker75

I'm assuming you have a standard 1800 or 2L type4 with 32-34 solex carbs. 36mm or 40mm IDF webers or DRLA Dellorto's work well but the manifolds will be too long for the type3. You will have to get them cut down super short. I don't know if any one in Australia stocks them cut down. I think this place in the US does.

http://www.fatperformance.com/about.htm 

You also need short air cleaners

With your hot starting problem you could try using the Standard VW Fuel injection manifold insulators if you do not have them already. They will help with the heads heating up the carbs.
Or these

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/store/product.php?productid=16821&cat=...

They may have cut down manifolds as well if you ask.

have you checked this yet? Its a good story

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=427890&sid=8981c6dd067c8...

vlad, ^^^That is a great thread I have been following it from the start. It has a lot of good info and I really like the vids on page18 and 23.

Here is a good thread for those thinking about a type4 conversion and have not seen it yet.

http://www.tunacan.net/t4/tech/type3.shtml 

Also here is another thread with a lot of interesting engines.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=280058&postdays=0&po...

Thanks Burrelli,
yep its a standard 1800 type 4 with solex carbs.
Looks like webers are too difficult and won't fit into the type 3 without modification (and their bloody expensive!).
Really need to sort out hot start issues - will have a look into the fuel injection manifolds. One of the chokes is stuffed, so thought the hot start problem might be due to that. Or perhaps just need to adjust choke??

Vlad - got a couple of pages through the thread and the wife went into labor!!!

cheers

tacker75,

For your hot starting problem.

First thing, do you have a manual for the type4 engine?

If you don't get on ebay or what ever and get a Robert Bentley one like this (but better nick)



Do a good tune up on the engine.

Check valve settings
make sure all ignition parts are OK.
Set the points
set the timing.
Tune the carbs

The choke not working is OK for hot starting. You just have to make sure the choke butterflys are both fully open when the engine is hot.


This is what the fuel injection manifold insulators look like. Have a look to see if you have them. They are about 6mm thick and fit between the head and the inlet manifold.



What air cleaners do you have? If you have sports type air cleaners, you will be sucking hot air into the engine on a hot startup. Here is a pic I found on samba that has a type4 with a cut down? standard type3 air cleaner that would take cool air from the cooling vent in the body.

Matty v, getting back to your original question, it really depends on what you are looking for. I had my mild 1916 built by Rod Penrose here in Wollongong. It is strong, has mountains of torque, and is a dream to drive on the freeway and very easy to drive around Sydney in peak hour (when I'm up there). It really depends on how much you want to spend. Mine ran 70HP at the wheels soon after build on E10 with poor jetting - since fixed but not re-dynoed.

I am running 36 Dells on type 1 manifolds with Turbo tops (Air box to come), a Carter fuel pump (which is about to go) and a fuel pump cut-out circuit (just in case). See photos. Why type 1 manifolds? - because the Type 3 stubbys are too fat at the base to access plugs. Hence I do not have engine lid at the moment. Once I have completed engine bay fit-out with airbox and removal of fuel pump to front of car, I am going to fabricate a new high top lid to cover it all.

Engine temp at freeway speeds and above (3250-3500 rpm) never exceeds 90C even over a period of hours in summer, I made sure all tinware was in place and that the oil cooler had correct sealing foam etc when I put it all back together. And I threw the deep sump away (actually it's in one of my store cupboards, but not on the engine anymore. I believe VW got it right in the first place).

lol what the?

stevedel,

That set up looks good. With some sort of box over the top to seal the engine off from the rest of the car would be the way to go. Have you considered connecting the carbs to a central air box that takes cold air from some where?

i couldnt cut my car like that but i must say its a very cool set up, once you make a box to cover it all should look neat

Hi Guys, bits of metal can be replaced if needs be. The only bit that I'm P'd off with at the moment is the little square cutout at the front right, where I had placed the original oil overflow tank. I have yet to put this piece back! The Airbox is under construction, with the intake to come from the original inlet position in the bottom right of the engine bay. Once the Carter fuel pump is gone (Weber bullet pump arrived Wednesday from Carbs Unlimited - to go under tank), then I can mock up the airbox for size and fit and then get it done. Turbo tops spin around, then Engine lid can be fabricated.

This manifold set up? - because I got sick and tired of having to remove the original Type 3 spec stubby manifolds to replace fouled plugs when I was trying to tune a set of HPMX's (beware). The Type 1's make it so much easier on this engine configuration - if your prepared to do some metalwork! And the Dellorto 36ers are a dream.

stevedel ,

I'm looking forward to seeing your progress with your Fasty.

The engine cover and air box will make it nice and quiet inside. I'll bet it's loud at the moment and like driving with the heater on.

36 dellortos and long manifolds must be great for torque and make it fun for street driving.

Having to cut the car is a shame but your engine will not have the issues of carbs under the hatch.

I have a type4 in my square. It's downright fast when the revs get up.
EFI set up so no worries with the engine lid fitting.
It's a tight squeeze in the engine bay and has around an inch of clearance to the body at the back end (exhaust has to come off to get the engine out).

I'm still sucking hot air in through the intake until I fabricate a manifold for it. No overheating problems - the external oil cooler bypass rarely gets hot enough to redirect the fluids but I do have a deep sump as well. (I've driven Syd-Melb in summer non stop and do 5hr drives each fortnight in winter). The only time it ever got hot was driving at 5400rpm for over 1min. And here is how bullet proof these engines are; when I did that it broke a valve spring and badly damaged the heads but I kept driving for 12months thinking not that much was wrong as the power was still there though it had an irregular tapping noise which was thought to be a scoured piston barrel.

With hydraulic lifters it's limited to 5500rpm but was run out to 7000 while dyno tuning where it kept throwing the fan belt.

I don't do burnouts or fast starts but putting my foot down on the freeway destroyed 4th gear with 8mths.
I since had the heads rebuilt, a progressive tune up for the electronic ignition and issues fixed (valve springs)- drivability and power where on the improve but it had been leaking oil from the wheel bearing (swing axle - and had been fixed) but didn't check the gear oil - it made it 300km before the planetary gear gave up.

I'm now having a superbox(?) built with 4 planetary gears to handle the power.

Here's a pic. (sorry about the quality)