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Building a swing axle car for Classic Adelaide
Dicko - October 22nd, 2015 at 12:44 PM

Over a few beers a mate and I decided to enter my 1970 (swing axle) beetle in next yearís Classic Adelaide, one year away. What Iím looking to get opinions on is how to make the car reliable and safe in the first instance, speed and engine considerations to come later. So hereís what I have come up with, what have I missed or what donít I require?



Iím currently running the standard disk brakes on the front and drums on the rear. Do I need to upgrade and if so to what?

The front has dropped spindles and a narrowed (4Ē) adjustable front beam currently set at zero adjustment to ensure itís at a legal height of over 100mm.

The car has no rust and is generally in good condition

Any help appreciated.


nbturbo - October 22nd, 2015 at 04:19 PM

You better give me a ring and come round for a chat.


Governor - October 22nd, 2015 at 04:33 PM

Talk to Boris, VVDS I believe he has done a Targa in a beetle


vw54 - October 22nd, 2015 at 04:53 PM

He has done several and just finished a new chassis for customer


colin - October 22nd, 2015 at 05:04 PM

Please remove the narrowed beam and fit a standard width beam.
That will make a HUGE improvement in handling.

Cheers Col


adlbeetle66 - October 22nd, 2015 at 05:20 PM

Guy Harding has also done Targa in a Swing Axle bug!


coletrickle - October 22nd, 2015 at 05:39 PM

That narrow beam.Not that cool might want to swap that out.


coletrickle - October 22nd, 2015 at 05:44 PM

And the dropped spindles.And if you start getting brake pad knockoff,thats the chinese spindles flexing under load.


Dicko - October 22nd, 2015 at 09:20 PM

Wow thank you all for your replies. The beam and spindles were fitted by the previous owner so I'll look into replacing them. NB I keep meaning to call but time gets away from me in the evenings with 2 little ones. I'll come over for a chat and also call Boris.

Any more suggestions are welcome and I'll keep you all updated.


lou0060 - October 25th, 2015 at 09:24 PM

ditto all above. In fact Boris's targa car is now my bug, the subi TT one.

if you use the z bar probably don't need the CC bar but you need to tighten the z bar up all the way. In fact best to take it out and use a CC bar, but others might know more about this.

will be great to have another circuit beetle getting around, keep us posted....


Dicko - October 26th, 2015 at 04:03 PM

Hi guys. Quick update, I'll soon have the chassis off having an IRS conversion done. So not Z bar and no CC either - should change the title of the post. I have identified that even though the beam is shortened the track is as original with the vented disk conversion on the front that the previous owner did. So I'm going to keep it. I'm unsure about the spindles, they look much more sturdy than original ones, massive alongside in fact, so I'm tossing up whether to change them out or not.

I have been trying to get a primer coat on the body for the last three days but each time I look at it I get all anal and do more prep work, it's hard to know when to stop and just get the primer on.

I also have to investigate racing classes as I'd like to use the car for either circuit or hill climbs as well once built, not just Targa. here's a pic of how it was looking last week.


HappyDaze - October 26th, 2015 at 04:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dicko
Hi guys. Quick update, I'll soon have the chassis off having an IRS conversion done. So not Z bar and no CC either

Glad I didn't do what I was going to do...offer you some 'good bits', and advice on setting up your swing-axle Beetle. :rolleyes:


nbturbo - October 26th, 2015 at 06:20 PM

I am doing his IRS conversion Greg-what are your thoughts on that.I remember talking to you about what you have done to old No 8's front and rear suspension to make it handle well.


cnfabo - October 26th, 2015 at 07:22 PM

If your running a stock engine what about putting some kads or 36idfs on and exhaust just for some extra oomppfff...you will need every last hp with those hills etc....

Why are you thinking plastic windows?? You will not be able to run with plastic etc in road rego class for supersprints and hillclimbs.I think you would end up in sports sedan corect me if I'm wrong...

Rear torsion bars I think stock or type 3 size would be fine as you are not running big power...
If you are getting your gearbox built why not put in a closer 3rd and fourth.. Will help!pull out of those corners that bit easier....

Cheers
Fabo


coletrickle - October 26th, 2015 at 07:55 PM

Man get a rule book first unless you just won lotto.


Dicko - October 26th, 2015 at 07:56 PM

Cheers Fabo

I was thinking the plexiglass for weight reduction but you're right I need to check the class rules first! I have a pair of 40 Idfs that I plan to put on whatever the engine ends up being, after initial investigations running in a sub 2000cc class is the best bet but I'm waiting until I can get some definite info before proceeding with it.

I also hadn't considered the torsion beam change, what would be the benefit of going to a type 3 beam?

As for the box thanks for the tip, I'll look at the ratios and getting third and forth "welded" although I'm not 100% on what benefit that would bring.

Happydaze I hope I didn't offend, it's the last thing I want to do to guys in the vw community before I haven even built a car! I'm just taking advice where I can and after talking to nbturbo it seemed that the IRS conversion fitted my brief of a reliable and safe car. Thank you for the thoughts on the parts and I'm still open ears to your advice.


cnfabo - October 26th, 2015 at 09:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dicko
Cheers Fabo

I was thinking the plexiglass for weight reduction but you're right I need to check the class rules first! I have a pair of 40 Idfs that I plan to put on whatever the engine ends up being, after initial investigations running in a sub 2000cc class is the best bet but I'm waiting until I can get some definite info before proceeding with it.

Look if you just wanna go out and have fun,under 2 litre or over .just don't get too caught up in the cc thing....

I also hadn't considered the torsion beam change, what would be the benefit of going to a type 3 beam?

Sorry I meant rear torsion bars off a type 3,actually now I'm talking of it I have some here but unfortunately i live in WA...
Front is easy to set up....stock spindles with twin beam adjusters...set of caster shims under bottom beam tube....extra camber eccentric nut " u may get one 0.5-1 degree of neg camber which is not much but also depends on street tyres or semi slicks...but to get more camber you will have to get your top arms of your beam sent to rod Penrose and he'll get his man to tweak them a tad for you...
Good shocks,like bilstein,koni,gaz,Avo etc...
Oh and I'm not sure why you would need to have a 4" beam with 6" cookie's..mine fit fine but I do have a fair bit of camber just like Nathan Abbot and the Campbell's hillclimb bugs..and also since its narrowed a fair amount the beam will be alot stiffer due to the spring packs being shortened

As for the box thanks for the tip, I'll look at the ratios and getting third and forth "welded" although I'm not 100% on what benefit that would bring.

Yeah I'm not sure either but definitely get a closer 3rd and 4th or a 4.375r&p and if money permits a lsd diff "not cheap"... The gearbox guru is Dave Butler on her under the name dangerous " which he's not",lol....

Happydaze I hope I didn't offend, it's the last thing I want to do to guys in the vw community before I haven even built a car! I'm just taking advice where I can and after talking to nbturbo it seemed that the IRS conversion fitted my brief of a reliable and safe car. Thank you for the thoughts on the parts and I'm still open ears to your advice.


Oh and if this man offers you advise,listen...Greg has been racing dak daks for longer then I was even in my dad's ballsack...im 33 BTW....


Good luck dude
Fabo


HappyDaze - October 27th, 2015 at 07:14 AM

Thanks Fabo...for making me feel really old. :rolleyes:

Gary...PM replied to.


Dicko - October 27th, 2015 at 08:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by coletrickle
Man get a rule book first unless you just won lotto.


Cole, thanks for the feedback yes I'm doing my research into the class rules. The only modification proposed so far is the IRS conversion everything else is as I bought the car as listed in the OP.

Thanks for your concerns regarding my budget. No I haven't won the lotto but I have been working my ring off for the last 10 years on mines sites doing FIFO including a 2 year stint in the PNG highlands, so I have some money to spend on a project that I am passionate about.

Fabio, I'm open to all advice for sure, especially from experienced racers such as Greg.


Craig Torrens - October 27th, 2015 at 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dicko
I have identified that even though the beam is shortened the track is as original with the vented disk conversion on the front that the previous owner did. So I'm going to keep it. I'm unsure about the spindles, they look much more sturdy than original ones, massive alongside in fact, so I'm tossing up whether to change them out or not.



Your track maybe the same, but your scrub radius would have changed.

The spindles may look sturdy, but they flex more than standard beetle ones due to the inferior materials used to make them.........also check with your CAMS requirements for the class as they may not be legal. :tu:


Aussie Dubbin - October 27th, 2015 at 11:31 AM

Bend the top trailing arms, to help achieve 4 to 5mm camber. And trim the excess off the top of the frame horns to reduce tyre rubbing. And extra eccentric camber adjusting nut. Castor plate, one or two.
Rear brakes to type 3. And better shoe material. Replace all the gear linkage rubbers, make sure it's shifting nice.
Possibly solid front and rear gearbox mounts
IRS is a great idea.
Type 3 rear bars may not be enough, look at bigger ones.
Roll cage to stiffen pan.
Run bars to front beam also. Strength and safety.


Dicko - October 27th, 2015 at 11:44 AM

Quote:


Your track maybe the same, but your scrub radius would have changed.

The spindles may look sturdy, but they flex more than standard beetle ones due to the inferior materials used to make them.........also check with your CAMS requirements for the class as they may not be legal. :tu:


OK I'll change out the spindles then and revert to a standard front beam. for a racing application is a zero, negative or positive scrub angle preferred?

Thanks for the tips!

Also thanks to Aussie Dubbin, I'll do some research into your pointers and understand what affect those alterations will make. Cheers


Aussie Dubbin - October 27th, 2015 at 12:27 PM

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?action=attachment&tid=85...


Aussie Dubbin - October 27th, 2015 at 12:28 PM

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/Aussiedubbin/DSC04526.jpg 
Front G Box mount


Aussie Dubbin - October 27th, 2015 at 12:29 PM

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/Aussiedubbin/DSC04583.jpg 


Dicko - October 28th, 2015 at 07:58 AM

Thanks for the pics AussieDubbin.

Managed to finally get the body into primer last night at 11:30.:starhit: 1 coat of etch and two of primer. Under wings are going black over good condition OG paint so no need to prime.


lou0060 - October 28th, 2015 at 06:58 PM

looking good Dicko. When we did my car we had to keep reminding ourselves that it is a race car. Overwise you'll get so caught up about the finish it will take forever. We use to joke that we'd put a sticker on any bad areas. I've run mine now for 5 years and has heaps of stone chips but luckily no panel damage. (must not be trying hard enough....)

Aussie dubber comments are on the mark for sure.


Dicko - October 29th, 2015 at 10:25 AM

Cheers Lou. Yeah the biggest risk to this car looking good is going to be my driving for sure. Hopefully I can keep it in good nick until Classic Adelaide 2016.


debiasi4 - October 30th, 2015 at 09:00 PM

you will love the event. The most fun I've had behind the wheel. Make sure you have a good deep sump or dry sump it. Nice large extra oil cooler (one stage is 43km long) all new brakes. Semi slick tyres- the softest available. Get the car light as possible.plenty of fibre glass and plastic windows- these can easily be changed to suit other racing if needed Close 3 rd and forth gear with lsd if the budget will stretch.
LOCTITE everything!! Everything that can come loose will!!
Defiantly bend the top trailing arms on the front. 3-4 neg camber plus 2 x castor shims. Good sway bars. Find adjustable white line bars if you can.
Probably my biggest tip is buy pass notes from a well known racer. These are a great safety thing but allows you to go flat over that crest knowing what's out of sight. Then do as much recce as you can.
Do as many hill climbs/ sprint days before hand to sort the car
Cheers Adam


Dicko - January 12th, 2016 at 03:04 PM

Thanks Adam

Things are coming along slowly. The chassis is with NBturbo getting some mods and he is also bending the top trailing arms. I was in the process of building an engine for it (with NB's help) but that engine is now going in my wife's 68 Westfalia (with a drastically different spec but still with some top notch parts). I'm at a standstill with the road/race engine as I don't know if I should go VWRX or not. the reason for this thinking is that $ for hp the EJ20 engine and trans is just a better deal but a lot more work and I'm not 100% comfortable with the idea of going away from the VW engine. decisions decisions...

Paint wise I have the rear guards and engine lid to do and re-do the bonnet for the third time.

Anybody got any widened rear wings in SA or VIC? Non flared? John Sherman has but the postage is the same price as the wings themselves unfortunately.