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Gene Berg trophy
Bug_racer - September 18th, 2005 at 05:21 PM

Pity the other post was deleted . I'm game enough to start a new one cause this must be resolved . I want all water cooled and air cooled cars running for the Gene Berg trophy but it seems the main concern is with the air cooled cars . Basically the Turbo cars are starting to have a real advantage compared to previosly as they are become increasingly efficient . What if submitting minimum weights for various cars ?
N/A beetle Open
beetle engine turbo 950kg
Type 4 engine turbo 1150kg

And also allowing N/A engines full slicks and turbo cars street tyres ?

I dont want another flame thread just constructive comments WITHOUT PEOPLE BEING MENTIONED !


dangerous - September 18th, 2005 at 06:13 PM

Lets confirm a date for the meeting before "counting the chickens"


Dasdubber - September 18th, 2005 at 06:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bug_racer
I dont want another flame thread just constructive comments WITHOUT PEOPLE BEING MENTIONED !


There is nothing more I'd like to see than what you mentioned above - lets hope things don't degenerate again because it will end up with the same outcome.

Cheers. :thumb


pete wood - September 19th, 2005 at 12:44 AM

what happened?


VWCOOL - September 19th, 2005 at 02:53 AM

The GB rules are for street reg'd cars. Those are the rules and that's about all there is to it. End of discussion...


Craig Torrens - September 19th, 2005 at 09:53 AM

Really simple..............if you want to change the rules, then come up with a new trophy.


OvalGlen - September 19th, 2005 at 10:37 AM

Bug Racer, interesting idea, try to even the field -
but of course slicks are not street legal.
As already hinted - if Turbos are street legal "follow the
Vibe of the Burg Trophy" then they
are in, may not give normally aspirated a chance but
another trophy is a great idea.!


Bug_racer - September 19th, 2005 at 12:00 PM

I want to try and keep the Gene Berg trophy running as long as possible . If slicks arent street legal then what about not allowing turbos to run greater than 7 inch wide tyres or something . There are ways around this . I'm only throwing suggestions here to try and resolve this so both N/A and Turbo can run together . Even if we limit engine size and boost there has to be a way this can be resolved . I've been watching the whole VW drag scene dwindling down to a pretty pathetic turnout this year . How many cars turned up ? around 20 , 25 maybe ? I know I didnt run the car I wanted to but I still showed up (although it was in my G/F car:P) . The ever increasing amount of water cooled cars is enough of a reason to alter the Gene Berg trophy . I'm pretty sure I can double the field of water cooled cars next year . I'm also ready and willing to lay down some prize money , although it wont be much its still better than nothing ! All these factors and also the previous post pretty much shows that the Gene Berg trophy has to be changed in some way . I just want suggestions , I would also like to throw forward a time and place to meet , probably around the time of the flat four shootout ?


1303Steve - September 19th, 2005 at 03:22 PM

Hi

The whole point of the trophy should be to encourage people to build a car that goes as fast as it can, but is legally street registered, EFI turbo charging etc is a development.

As far as Iím concerned the Berg Trophy has always been open to water-cooled VAG cars to compete for it.

Steve


hypo-vw - September 20th, 2005 at 06:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by VWCOOL
The GB rules are for street reg'd cars. Those are the rules and that's about all there is to it. End of discussion...


finally , someone who knows how to read a set of rules and apply them without adding their own terminology like , 'legally' , 'engine capacity ' etc.

have a read of the rules , is the phrase' legally road registed ' mentioned , NO !! because this would stop 90% of street registed cars from running . The rules have worked for the last 10 years , leave them as they are !!

Just make sure that the enforcer of the rules has the same standards for every competitor , not just the ones that kiss his butt !!


shiftyvw - September 20th, 2005 at 05:03 PM

Being Legally registered kind of went without saying i thought. Could someone please list previous winners and state how their cars have been illegal?


Bug_racer - September 20th, 2005 at 11:39 PM

I dont want any names mentioned here . That is why I posted it again . NO NAMES !!!!!


The whole point of this thread is to clarify some rules . There are heaps of N/A beetles out there and a few turbo ones , why should the few turbo cars compete for the trophy . The playing field should be as even as possible . As for a 2.8 turbo in an Oval , come on you cant hardly call that fair . If thats the case then I'll build a mk1 with a turbo r32 motor , wont take me long , have a spare r32 motor , 2 turbo's laying around , and mk1's are cheap . I want the GBT to be a level playing field where both N/A and turbo can compete for the same trophy . As for the legalities of it , well , umm , thats another story . I know people probably wont share the same opinions as me but please feel free to add opinions on how to make the GBT more fair


Boostn - September 21st, 2005 at 04:55 AM

Different states have different rules.

It is not fair on N/A cars against the turbo cars.

A car can not be truly street legal and pass ANDRA and be fast.

Just one of the rules is ANDRA require the seat to be fixed at the top of the back part of the seat, but VIC roads say the seat must be adjustable.

The cars are getting faster and if we are going to make the rules up as we go no one will bother with the GBT.

Wayne built a car, got it registered, was the fastest car, and has set the new bench mark.
It is up to everyone else to beat him, not take his glory.

Besides, (no offence Wayne and I'm sure you will agree) the 2.8 is irrelevant.
A 1915 could make more power than the 2.8, it was on a very soft tune by the sounds of it, and is capable of making twice that power he wanted to.


Bug_racer - September 21st, 2005 at 08:01 AM

Its all been noted but .

How many cars were at the nationals ?
What was Waynes closest competitor ?
Its great too see Wayne running the times , I even raced against him once and lost , I know he is quick , but whats the point of having only 1 quick bug that is over a second quicker than its nearest rival ? If no one beleives the playing field should be evened out then there should be 2 seperate classes . If you still dont want 2 classes whats the point of the trophy if only a half a dozen cars Australia wide can compete for it ?
The technical aspect can be sorted out later , the basics need to be implemented first .


Craig Paton - September 21st, 2005 at 08:50 AM

Wayne will have his competitors when other Turbo cars are finished!
With regards to N/A competing against turbo's, personally I can't see it!

Modern electronics and turbo's have come a long way since the 90's!

I DON'T want to compete against Turbo cars that are restricted by boost or weight! Why would a/one want to limit these guys??????

This is exactly what the V-Dub scene NEEDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would love to see these BEASTS being unleashed at the DRAGS and getting the Fast 4,s, V8"s etc take notice!

I still think if we had a similar situation to what the Yanks have done with their Cal-Look top 20 and Turbo/Nitrous Sections. In their case both sections can have a fair go!

A/way Street Meets are fun w/out all the bickering, except when you've just hosed a Rex or V8! :D:lol::smilegrin:


no slow 63 - September 21st, 2005 at 01:05 PM

If turbo cars are to be restricted by weight or boost, why would anybody bother building biulding one?

I agree, in heads up racing it's not fair to turbo and N/A cars to compete against eachother, but why should the people with turbo cars be restricted from going as fast as they can???

Instead of trying to make weight and boost restrictions for the turbo's to slow them down, maybe the rules should be changed so that the N/A guys have to run turbo's....That would make it fair wouldn't it?...(I'm only joking, so don't get upset N/A guys!)

But seriously, a few years back the turbo and N/A cars were pretty competitive, but nowdays the turbo cars are much faster, so there should be two classes.


Flintstones - September 21st, 2005 at 01:07 PM

From what I've read not only in this post but also the last one that was shut down it seems like there needs to be 2 classes;

For N/A the GBT Trophy
For Forced Induction the AVD Trophy (tubo's, superchargers, nitrous)

The only rules being Street rego'ed and engines from the VW stable (engine/chassis numbers matching rego papers).
(or add a third trophy for cars that have had conversions)

Have a panel of 5 to decide and award the trophies, this way there is no one person to controll the outcome.

The 5 representatives to be elected from either various clubs or workshops but only one rep from THAT club or workshop and to be elected by the people i.e. AVD members, car clubs etc.

These are suggestions to get the ball rolling

As Club VeeDub host the Nationals, I hope a representative can provide an official solution to what appears to be a rather long and ongoing debate prior to next years Nats.


Cheers


Craig Paton - September 21st, 2005 at 05:15 PM

[Quote] Instead of trying to make weight and boost restrictions for the turbo's to slow them down, maybe the rules should be changed so that the N/A guys have to run turbo's....

Hey Mark

Great idea!!.... I wish I thought of that!:smilegrin:nn[Edited on 21-9-2005 by Craig Paton ]


vanderaj - September 21st, 2005 at 06:07 PM

If there is going to be an Aussieveedubbers open-ended category trophy (and I will talk to Brad about that), it will be first and foremost a "safe" category. We don't want cars that are so dangerous to race that drivers or spectators will be hurt if anything goes wrong.

Andrew


no slow 63 - September 22nd, 2005 at 06:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by vanderaj
If there is going to be an Aussieveedubbers open-ended category trophy (and I will talk to Brad about that), it will be first and foremost a "safe" category. We don't want cars that are so dangerous to race that drivers or spectators will be hurt if anything goes wrong.

Andrew


We aren't racing up and down Lygon st.!!!!

If any car is unsafe to race , it wont pass scruteneering and / or ANDRA tech inspection.


jakjones - September 22nd, 2005 at 07:41 AM

Dave Birchal and club veedub have done a great job in previous years.

TEXT DELETED HERE.

Get over it Rose , this Topic is very worn out now.

Tah

jak this post has been edited by me - call me what you like but your comments again brought in personal references which is why the first thread was suspended. There were no constructive comments or suggestions how to keep things moving forward in vw drag racing - all the comments would do is stir another shit fight which would result in this thread being suspended too which none of the moderators want, nor the people involved in any constructive input.

nn[ Edited on 21-9-2005 by Dasdubber ]


pete wood - September 22nd, 2005 at 05:51 PM

How about we let anything registered as a VW enter. That would really make it interesting.

[am I the only person who's over this "aircooled" vs "watercooled" vs "not a purist" vs "dont wear balmain footy socks" debate?]

BTW, I'm sure Gene Berg would find it all just as boring as I am... :rolleyes:


nn[ Edited on 22-9-2005 by pete wood ]


OvalGlen - September 22nd, 2005 at 08:34 PM

Andrew, To race at the strip the cars must pass tech
inspection. Usually this is adequate to ensure a reasonable
level of safety however when it comes to pushing
the boundaries as this class with Turbo and Insane boost
will probably head toward, then things will break.
Maybe the safer class would be the Absolutely Bone standard engine class.
May not be as much fun to watch but - hey cant have
everything.:thumb


More Boost - September 22nd, 2005 at 09:29 PM

I think the only thing wrong with the GBT at the moment is the fact that people are upset with 'illegally' modified and registered vehicles. I think the wording needs changing. As long as the car is legally registered in the home state of the owner it should be allowed to compete for the trophy.
As for turbo vs N/A, I don't believe that N/A cars will be able to compete against boosted vehicles but why should these boosted cars be unallowed to compete for a trophy started by a man whose passion was volkswagens, in any form.

Rob


BiX - September 23rd, 2005 at 07:49 AM

OK i mite put in my 2c worth. Having not run or have run in the GBT, i come at this from an outsider's point of view, so could be all wrong, or not.

From the sounds of it, the turbo technology has now outstripped the NA cars, now the question si how to make this fair. 2 classes, one for na cars under 2.4L and one for turbo and large displacement NA cars?

Is there anyway of having some kind of test for all the cars, even though they may all have rego and a number plates, some are more streeteable than others. I remember reading a few years back on here, that all cars had to be able to be driven in a 80km loop etc around the public roads and returned? would somehting like this make it possible. This ouwl mean that cars are registered for road use (therefore stopping pure drags cars) and also some form of streetable. The drive may have to be done by an appointed offical of the event, with the owner driver in the passenger seat. As such no switches or other adjustments can be made,eg the car comes down the returnb road, the driver hops out with the car running and the tester hops in an drives the X km loop.

I do have a basic understanding of drag racing, but is there a way to run a power to weight ratio? and then turbo engines incure a capacity increase of 1.7 (like in cams racing)? or is this to hard to police and enforce?

I know that alot of times some cars are registered, but then have been heavily modified after being approved (this is the case in, qld, as once you have your plates you won't be checked again, unless the DOT pull you over).

I was once told that the winner of a race is normally not the best car within the rules, but the car which didn't get caught cheating...........


Turbo54 - September 23rd, 2005 at 09:32 AM

Bring on the loop thing, most of the turbo cars are more tame to drive on the street than the big NA Cars!
T54


VWCOOL - September 23rd, 2005 at 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by hypo-vw
Quote:
Originally posted by VWCOOL
The GB rules are for street reg'd cars. Those are the rules and that's about all there is to it. End of discussion...


finally , someone who knows how to read a set of rules and apply them without adding their own terminology like , 'legally' , 'engine capacity ' etc.

have a read of the rules , is the phrase' legally road registed ' mentioned , NO !! because this would stop 90% of street registed cars from running . The rules have worked for the last 10 years , leave them as they are !!

Just make sure that the enforcer of the rules has the same standards for every competitor , not just the ones that kiss his butt !!


Yeah, but, if a car for reason of weight or capacity fall outside the guidelines and regs supplied in each state via the CoP, the car can't be registered. So, ipso facto, if the car can't be 'street registered', it doesn't matter what the GB rules say about 'engine and chassis numbers'...!


Flintstones - September 23rd, 2005 at 01:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by VWCOOL
Quote:
Originally posted by hypo-vw
Quote:
Originally posted by VWCOOL
The GB rules are for street reg'd cars. Those are the rules and that's about all there is to it. End of discussion...


finally , someone who knows how to read a set of rules and apply them without adding their own terminology like , 'legally' , 'engine capacity ' etc.

have a read of the rules , is the phrase' legally road registed ' mentioned , NO !! because this would stop 90% of street registed cars from running . The rules have worked for the last 10 years , leave them as they are !!

Just make sure that the enforcer of the rules has the same standards for every competitor , not just the ones that kiss his butt !!


Yeah, but, if a car for reason of weight or capacity fall outside the guidelines and regs supplied in each state via the CoP, the car can't be registered. So, ipso facto, if the car can't be 'street registered', it doesn't matter what the GB rules say about 'engine and chassis numbers'...!


Then that would mean any "street registered" beetle that was running a 1916 engine would be required to undergo an engineers assesment (based on the RTA's 15% power increase rule) and have a report in the car at all times (provided it met the minimum guidelines)

Now how many owners out there have a engineers report for the above situation or does their rego papers still say that it's got a 1300,1500 or1600cc's ??!!

Cheers


VDubya - September 23rd, 2005 at 03:14 PM

Been robbed?

My mate can help you.

Call him.
4229 4461


VWCOOL - September 23rd, 2005 at 03:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Flintstones
Quote:
Originally posted by VWCOOL
Quote:
Originally posted by hypo-vw
Quote:
Originally posted by VWCOOL
The GB rules are for street reg'd cars. Those are the rules and that's about all there is to it. End of discussion...


finally , someone who knows how to read a set of rules and apply them without adding their own terminology like , 'legally' , 'engine capacity ' etc.

have a read of the rules , is the phrase' legally road registed ' mentioned , NO !! because this would stop 90% of street registed cars from running . The rules have worked for the last 10 years , leave them as they are !!

Just make sure that the enforcer of the rules has the same standards for every competitor , not just the ones that kiss his butt !!


Yeah, but, if a car for reason of weight or capacity fall outside the guidelines and regs supplied in each state via the CoP, the car can't be registered. So, ipso facto, if the car can't be 'street registered', it doesn't matter what the GB rules say about 'engine and chassis numbers'...!


Then that would mean any "street registered" beetle that was running a 1916 engine would be required to undergo an engineers assesment (based on the RTA's 15% power increase rule) and have a report in the car at all times (provided it met the minimum guidelines)

Now how many owners out there have a engineers report for the above situation or does their rego papers still say that it's got a 1300,1500 or1600cc's ??!!

Cheers


Yes that's right.:dork:

Hey, forget the 'how may owners out there blah blah' argument. Cops will laugh at you - and so will a magistrate