| [ Total Views: 857 | Total Replies: 18 | Thread Id: 102929 ] |
|
|
 simohagz
Casual Dubber
Posts: 38
Threads: 6
Registered: March 27th, 2013
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on July 30th, 2013 at 03:21 PM |
|
|
Suspension Upgrades for a '68 bug
As some of you know I am getting stuck into a pan off bare metal resto on a '68 bug and am trying to determine exactly the sorts of "upgrades" that
people may have done to improve their bugs!
Having just about decided on an engine (see other thread), I have moved my focus to the suspension/brakes.
As its a '68, it is a ball joint front end with a swing axle rear.
Discs up front and drums out back.
At present, I will be having to replace at a minimum the entire braking system due to the previous owner having parted out most of it...
The suspension is essentially complete.
In terms of suspension my requirements are, in order of importance:
1) Handling
2) Ride quality
3) the "look"
Considering it is all going to be in bits anyway, I am thinking:
- replace all bushings/bearings
- replace ball joints and any other wear parts
- new steering box
- new steering damper
- new shocks (either KYB GR2 all round or some oils up front)
- Camber compensator in the back
Is there anything else I should be doing considering I have the opportunity? Are there upgrades that can improve the handling/ride/looks? I have
looked at drop pindles and adjustable beams etc but not really wanting to lower it more than about 1" to preserve as much clearance and ride quality
as possible.
In terms of Braking I am thinking just a full set of discs all round. I have no current reason to change to a different studpattern
as I am leaning toward running stock steelies with original chromed hubcaps. Should i be reconsidering this? Do other stud patterns offer anything
significant? Any recommendations on a full set of discs? Kit etc?
Will be going with s/steel braided lines all round, a larger master cylinder to cope with rear discs and that is about it?
Again, is there any upgrades that are worth doing while the car is in bits and everything is being replaced?
Will be posting up some photos soon! Work to begin on the body in the next month!
Will also be looking for opinions on seats/carpets etc/electrical upgrades (new looms/adding gauges/)/parts to avoid for replacing headlights turn
signals etc and basically everything from the front bumper to the rear...only the body is really salvagable...
|
|
|
vwo60
Veteran Volks Folk
Posts: 2036
Threads: 71
Registered: February 13th, 2007
Member Is Offline
Location: Pomona Qld
Theme: UltimaBB Psyche Blue
Mood: good
|
| posted on July 30th, 2013 at 07:03 PM |
|
|
If you are going to all the work on the car, you should concider converting the car to IRS, i have both ball joint,IRS, ball joint swing axel and the
difference is conciderable.
|
|
|
Joel
Scirocco Rare
Now containing 100% E-Wang
Posts: 9368
Threads: 211
Registered: February 14th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Purple
Mood: Tact Level 0.00
|
| posted on July 30th, 2013 at 07:26 PM |
|
|
If handling is your number one priority and you have the body off, as mentioned above its common sense to convert to IRS.
Leave swing axle to the purists not concerned about handling.
Stock front discs and type 3 rear drums is a good combo for brakes.
You need to buy or engineer a good rear disc setup, there are a lot of crap kits on the market.
Stock mastercylinder works quite well with rear discs.
|
|
|
Paulc1964au
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1627
Threads: 59
Registered: March 5th, 2010
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney, NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on July 30th, 2013 at 07:58 PM |
|
|
well with my 69, i renewed all the ball joints, gas shocks and a two inch narrowed beam and drop spindles
|
|
|
 Bizarre
Super Moderator
The artist formerly known as blue74l
Posts: 12755
Threads: 731
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Abbotsford, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on July 30th, 2013 at 07:59 PM |
|
|
You have not mentioned lowering the car
I am not an expert here, as I have a super beetle but one rule applies to both.
Pick your wheels that you want to run first.
You say handling is important, so I can only assume you will want it slightly lowered at the front and you will want to run as a minimum stock width
wheels.
I you are wanting to run anything wider than stock, you man need to consider a narrowed beam
Have a think about what wheels you want, tell us and someone will point you in the right direction
Nothing worse than spending a heap on suspension only to have the wheels stick out like cauliflower ears or rub so much you cant go round corners
Futue te ipsum!!!
|
|
|
matberry
Super Moderator
Go hard or go home
Posts: 8114
Threads: 134
Registered: March 7th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Cooroy Qld
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: enjoying waving at all my Kombi buddies from my T3
|
| posted on July 30th, 2013 at 08:21 PM |
|
|
Postup some pics of the 'look' you're after as there are a million combo's out there. It is odd to only lower 1", but you're on the right track
trying to get input accross the board before you start getting too far into it. Handling and a good ride are achievable at nearly any ride height when
the whole package is done well.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
 |
|
|
simohagz
Casual Dubber
Posts: 38
Threads: 6
Registered: March 27th, 2013
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on July 30th, 2013 at 09:26 PM |
|
|
Hey guys thanks for the input.
Not concernced with lowering it for the sake of it (been down that path before and regretted it)
In terms of handling, I just want to dial out a bit of body roll and bounce, so an IRS conversion, while a top idea, is probably a bit much.
Mat, I dont really want to lower the car so much as remove the excessive front end height by a bit.
I have attached a photo I consider too high, and one i consider too low. Aiming for something in the middle.
Am I on the right track in terms of replacing bushings/shocks/ball joints etc to tighten her up in the front?
| Error |
| Sorry, you must be a registered user in order to download attachments. |
|
| Error |
| Sorry, you must be a registered user in order to download attachments. |
|
|
|
|
Aussie Dubbin
Fahrvergnugen
Posts: 895
Threads: 90
Registered: July 21st, 2008
Member Is Offline
Location: Adelaide
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on July 30th, 2013 at 09:44 PM |
|
|
You sound similar to where I started, have a read through my below race build 68. I hit a few setbacks after buying some cheaper parts without
checking their quality!
Pan off IRS conversion will probs only cost 300 odd bucks for someone to cut and weld in pivot boxes. Then you can go IRS at any time when you're
ready or right away (insert extra research reading here)
Beam is good consider weld in adjusters and dropped spindles. Adjusters are not that much cheaper than dropped spindles, spindles 'bolt in' and
allow a fresh start. Remember to check bearings needed and there are drum and disc spindles so this will effect brake choice.
Rear just settle on factory or factory type 3 rear drums. They work very well and adjustment concerns need to be put at bay. Especially if your tyres
will be 205 or smaller.
Buy a new "ATE" master cylinder. Not any other brand! Same with new twin pin front calipers.
Buy Koni or bilstein shocks 4-500 bucks delivered they will sort you out very well
Consider heavier duty rear torsion bars and replace rubbers again genuine.
Shorter throw shifter black mamba or cheaper empi
Matt Berry above is a great source for parts and knowledge. Probably has your stainless steel flixible lines.
There is so much more feel free to ask more
|
|
|
psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Posts: 2506
Threads: 148
Registered: January 1st, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: North East Melbourne, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Psyche Blue
|
| posted on July 30th, 2013 at 10:34 PM |
|
|
Read the handling article on AirCooled.net. Gives great incite into making a Beetle handle.
However, if you wish to start with the best of basics then an IRS conversion is a must. If you can get hold of Porsche 944 adjustable rear arms then
even better. These can be sourced from the UK as plenty of scrapped 944s over there.
madness is in the eye of the beholder  |
|
|
68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
Aircooled Master
Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138% - YIKES --
Posts: 11654
Threads: 449
Registered: August 31st, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: SCONE in UPPER HUNTER VALLEY NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Yellow
Mood: Really Mentally Ill - all of the time -
|
| posted on July 30th, 2013 at 11:59 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by simohagz
Hey guys thanks for the input.
Not concernced with lowering it for the sake of it (been down that path before and regretted it)
In terms of handling, I just want to dial out a bit of body roll and bounce, so an IRS conversion, while a top idea, is probably a bit much.
Mat, I dont really want to lower the car so much as remove the excessive front end height by a bit.
I have attached a photo I consider too high, and one i consider too low. Aiming for something in the middle.
Am I on the right track in terms of replacing bushings/shocks/ball joints etc to tighten her up in the front?
|
Yes, replace all You can afford so its like a new car back in 1968..
they drove well back then and it will drive like new.. again..
Supers are very high in the front.. But all beetles were too high in My opinion too..
I just read a book on VW performance and the Biggest improvement they said was to add a thicker front swaybar plus a rear sway bar..
cheers
LEE in Upper Hunter Valley NSW
PS Where are You located??
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
|
|
|
vwo60
Veteran Volks Folk
Posts: 2036
Threads: 71
Registered: February 13th, 2007
Member Is Offline
Location: Pomona Qld
Theme: UltimaBB Psyche Blue
Mood: good
|
| posted on July 31st, 2013 at 07:31 AM |
|
|
Avoid narowing the beam, do some research and get wheels that have the correct offset to suit your suspension set up, it will pay off in the long term
with better handling and less wear on the inner trailing arm bushes and ball joints.
|
|
|
simohagz
Casual Dubber
Posts: 38
Threads: 6
Registered: March 27th, 2013
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on July 31st, 2013 at 07:34 AM |
|
|
Psimitar - thanks for the article, a very good read
Lee, located on Sydneys Northern Beaches.
I am planning to run stock steel rims with chrome hubcaps so wheel clearance wont be an issue.
The car is definately more of a cruiser than a racer.
I guess ideally the best option for a compromise is probably new bushings/bearings/joints etc and a thicker swaybar?
I really want to keep it a swinaxle as the resto is quite close to original and I dont want to move away from that.
|
|
|
HappyDaze
A.k.a.: Greg Mackie
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Superannuated
Posts: 2887
Threads: 141
Registered: June 13th, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: Southern Highlands NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Happy enough
|
| posted on July 31st, 2013 at 07:53 AM |
|
|
Sounds like a good decision....nothing wrong with swing-axles .
I don't think a rear sway-bar is a good idea, just remove the 'slack' from the 'Z' bar. Invest in a set of good tyres.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
|
|
|
matberry
Super Moderator
Go hard or go home
Posts: 8114
Threads: 134
Registered: March 7th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Cooroy Qld
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: enjoying waving at all my Kombi buddies from my T3
|
| posted on July 31st, 2013 at 08:33 AM |
|
|
As Greg has said, a good basic set-up beetle handles very well. I prefer IRS when chasing good handling esp. if left soft for travel. Don't go
replacing everything unless it needs it, steering box, beam bushes, and even ball joints, the old ones, if not worn, can out-last new ones, and if
replacing, get German where-ever possible.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
|
|
|
simohagz
Casual Dubber
Posts: 38
Threads: 6
Registered: March 27th, 2013
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on July 31st, 2013 at 09:02 AM |
|
|
Cheers everyone.
If i weld in front beam adjusters, is it possible to drop the front just a tiny bit retaining stock everything else?
Or will this gives me camber/castor/bump stop issues?
Re: replacing everything.
I am just going to order oem vw bearings/bushings for everything. Is there anywhere that actually benefits from urethane? Gearbox mounts? Shift
coupler? Anything i should be doing in urethane?
Cheers guys!
|
|
|
ian.mezz
Wolfsburg Elder
I never said, I could write or spell
Posts: 3913
Threads: 280
Registered: September 11th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Newcastle
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Happy
|
| posted on July 31st, 2013 at 10:05 AM |
|
|
I think there was list of stuff some where think it was on the club vw website.
or vintage vw might of had a parts list combo.???
|
|
|
HappyDaze
A.k.a.: Greg Mackie
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Superannuated
Posts: 2887
Threads: 141
Registered: June 13th, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: Southern Highlands NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Happy enough
|
| posted on July 31st, 2013 at 10:07 AM |
|
|
I can't think of ANYTHING that should be in urethane.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
|
|
|
matberry
Super Moderator
Go hard or go home
Posts: 8114
Threads: 134
Registered: March 7th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Cooroy Qld
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: enjoying waving at all my Kombi buddies from my T3
|
| posted on July 31st, 2013 at 11:15 AM |
|
|
I agree for minimal lowering adjusters only is the way to go.
Urethane... I only use the engine mounts if a mid trans mount is used as well and for 100+ hp, I also use it for torsion bushes IF drag race starts or
burn-outs are desired. Definately not in the front.
Even a replacement shift coupling, use only what you need to, the hardware and frame all need mods to make them work/last.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
|
|
|
psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Posts: 2506
Threads: 148
Registered: January 1st, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: North East Melbourne, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Psyche Blue
|
| posted on July 31st, 2013 at 07:20 PM |
|
|
Urethane is fine just so long as it ain't EMPI. Their urethane is too hard and brittle due to being cheaply made.
Superflex and Pedders urethane is much better quality but only a few Beetle bushes could be found from bush dimensions as they make not specifically
for the old Beetle.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
|
|
