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 Paul Aslanides
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| posted on April 4th, 2004 at 12:05 AM |
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Type 2 Starter Problem
Hi All. Does anyone have any experience and/or solutions to this? (I think that starter solenoid problems have been mentioned here previously).
When the engine is warm and up to normal running temperature, if I stop the engine then go to restart it, it turns over
rrrr,......rrr........rrr...........rr..................r... so very slowly and won't fire up. Like the battery is flat.
So I have to wait five to ten minutes or so, whereupon it turns over normally and fires up easily. Very frustrating, especially in such a good and
otherwise trusty vehicle.
I might add that the starter motor was overhauled some five or six years ago. And some further strange observations:
1). I had a flat battery some six months ago, from having left the parking lights on all day at work. Silly boy. So I duly switched them off and
had a workmate give me a start from his battery with jumper leads. Would you believe that the extra battery made no difference whatsoever to the
cranking speed of my starter motor?
2). When the engine is cold, the starter turns it over very slowly, but it fires up straight away, of course. VW's are like that, the colder it is,
the easier the start, normally.
3). Once, the garage decided, probably quite rightly, that my battery had little reserve power, so they fitted a new one. Didn't make much
difference though. Within a few days the new battery was turning the engine over just as slow as the old one. And it's been like that for years.
All this suggests...old, faulty wiring affected by temperature giving high resistance? faulty starter? faulty solenoid? insufficient charge? No, I
think insufficient charge, if so, is a separate issue here.
Can I replace the solenoid? Is it separate from the starter?
Is it that little box thing hidden up under the rear right hand side with different sized wires? I reckon I ought to replace a few wires too, like the
fat one especially.
My apologies for the long post, but your experienced advice will be much appreciated. Thanks.
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 vw54
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| posted on April 4th, 2004 at 07:34 AM |
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Sounds like you need a starter Overhaul and a new battery as well.
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11CAB
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| posted on April 4th, 2004 at 08:06 AM |
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First up, get a multimeter and check the charge rate at the battery when the engine is running. It should be between 13.8V & 14.2V Next if you
can get your hands on a Hydrometer to test the cells in the battery as this will rule out the battery as a problem, if they both check out ok, then
the next problem is the power goes from the battery all the way to the front to the ignition switch then all the way to the back to the starter. A
long way to travel and get voltage drop. What you can do is fit a solenoid in the engine bay (like the ones used for spot lights etc) This uses the
the ignition wire from the front as a trigger (which only needs milliamps) and the starter gets its power straight from the battery so no voltage
drop.
See how you go
65 Meyers Manx
68 Country Buggy (KO 367)
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nbturbo
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| posted on April 4th, 2004 at 08:56 AM |
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How long since the starter bush was replaced????If it was 5 or 6 years ago with starter o'haul should be ready for a new one.
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on April 4th, 2004 at 10:21 AM |
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I had the same problem with mine......ended up installing a relay as 11cab suggested. My ignition swithch ended up being buggered.I havn't replaced
it as yet but carry a large screwdriver in case it dosn't turn over when I need it to start!! Lazy I know but it's on the list.................
tssnq.com.au
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Paul Aslanides
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| posted on April 4th, 2004 at 07:50 PM |
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Type 2 Starter Problem
Thanks for your input, fellas.
1) Charge rate is down a little, at 13. 02 Volts, fast idle.
2) Specific gravity of electrolyte is less than 1150 - 1200, so the battery is in a state of half charge. Gave it an hour's charge, just got it back
in before dark. Priorities! Should have had it on low charge all day.
I took the battery out - no room for a hydrometer in there. Gave me a chance to clean the terminals, etc. Took me an hour to find the hydrometer, only
use it once every five years or so, by which time it's too late as the battery is due for replacement anyway, usually. (The Beetle battery is much
easier to access than the Kombi's).
All this has forced me to face the unpalatable fact that I most likely need a new voltage/current regulator or alternator, or both.
Hell - it's a constant battle. Why Kombi's? I guess other makes of vans don't last long enough to have these troubles, No?
But hang on - doesn't the Kombi already have a starter relay? I can appreciate the voltage drop over the distance up front and back, especially with
old wiring. And yes, the relay only needs a small current to switch the contacts which carry the heavy current to the starter. There is the
possibility of a worn out ignition/starter switch also, as one chap suggested. Looks like I have a number of small problems to fix, and one or two big
ones. A process of elimination, one's pocket is only so shallow.
Thanks again. Any more advice please? Cheers.
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mnsKmobi
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| posted on April 5th, 2004 at 10:04 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Paul Aslanides
Thanks for your input, fellas.
1) Charge rate is down a little, at 13. 02 Volts, fast idle.
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Sounds like that's your problem. With no load you should be seeing closer to 14 v. At 13.02v your battery would never be fully charged. (Not that it
is at 14v, but that's another story!).
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All this has forced me to face the unpalatable fact that I most likely need a new voltage/current regulator or alternator, or both.
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It's a long shot, but try cleaning the terminals on the solenoid where all the +ve wires connect. I did it and gained a little bit of extra
voltage.
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Hell - it's a constant battle. Why Kombi's? I guess other makes of vans don't last long enough to have these troubles, No?
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A guy I work with had a 1981 Hiace van and he had his fair share of problems so we are not alone!
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But hang on - doesn't the Kombi already have a starter relay?
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No, only the solenoid.
HTH
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Paul Aslanides
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| posted on April 5th, 2004 at 10:57 PM |
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Thankyou, much obliged. Will report back in a few weeks or so.
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VolksFolks
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| posted on April 5th, 2004 at 11:10 PM |
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Starter Probs
Hi Paul, i purchased a kombi is 6v, i had to get a new battery as there was no battery, wired it all up and all i got was a clik!, as the car had not
been started for 5 years, so i had the starter overhauled, replaced the starter and lights were on the ignition, still just a clik, so i compleatly
removed the earth lead to clean the terminals, i thought the lead felt extra stiff so i tried to short the battery, presto the lead was faulty,
corroded in the core which was not visual, put a new earth lead on and she started within 2 mins, just a thought, you never now,
Andy
They laugh because You are different, You laugh because They are all the same.
check out http://www.lowlight.com.au for low lights only.. |
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crazyluke
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| posted on April 6th, 2004 at 09:16 PM |
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paul, sounds exactly like ur starter is "poling" that is the armature magnets are hitting the case. this is due to worn starter bush in the g/box or
worn starter back bearing. both are easy to change yourself and cost bugger all. best way to diagnose this is with an inductive ammeter on either of
the main battery cables while u crank the motor when its hot . should be no more than 200 amps for a stock mtr up to 2l.
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1303
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| posted on April 6th, 2004 at 09:48 PM |
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13.02 Volts at a fast idle.......bring the revs up to 2000rpms and see if it increases.Kombi alternators (and most old cars)don't really put out that
much at low rpms and besides most of the time when driving you'll be above 2000rpms....dont waste your money on a new alternator until you check if
it comes up to about 13.5-13.8volts above 2000rpms.
As for fitting a starter relay, i doubt whether it will fix it.Normally a starter relay will fix a voltage drop from the ignition switch.....if your
starter is cranking over then there would be no voltage drop in the switching circuit.
Cheers Paul
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1303
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| posted on April 6th, 2004 at 09:51 PM |
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13.02 Volts at a fast idle.......bring the revs up to 2000rpms and see if it increases.Kombi alternators (and most old cars)don't really put out that
much at low rpms and besides most of the time when driving you'll be above 2000rpms....dont waste your money on a new alternator until you check if
it comes up to about 13.5-13.8volts above 2000rpms.
As for fitting a starter relay, i doubt whether it will fix it.Normally a starter relay will fix a voltage drop from the ignition switch.....if your
starter is cranking over then there would be no voltage drop in the switching circuit.
Cheers Paul
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 Peter Leonard
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| posted on April 6th, 2004 at 10:10 PM |
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i've had the same annoying frikken thing. did it all, cleaned and polished everything, right down to the ground strap. still just a click or a really
slow turn over. battery fine, charged.... no difference...
ended up pulling the starter motor/solenoid assy right out of the car and dismantling it (only a couple of little nuts/ screws)... didn't look too
bad, but i polished up the copper that the brushes rest on, and scraped out the grooves (which were a tad gacky) and put it back in.
BINGO!
better than ever. worth a try and only takes half an hour to an hour (in a beetle...)
let sleeping dubs lie
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Paul Aslanides
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| posted on April 7th, 2004 at 12:13 AM |
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Thanks again, fellas - some good suggestions there that I will definitely follow up. Can't look at it until about the 18th; going to NSW for Easter.
Long trips are fine.
Hmmm.... yes, will check the heavy cables thoroughly.
INDUCTIVE AMMETER...please explain. I do have a couple of small ones, and one large, but can't arrange a shunt resistance as I wouldn't have that
type of wire. Unless we could use ohm's law and put a number of light globes in as a shunt. Too hard. But yes, good point. It's the only way to
find just how much current the starter is actually drawing.
Right. Since the starter is cranking over alright - sometimes - then a relay is not neccessarily a solution, but just a helpful convenience. It's
the times when the engine is warm that it turns over so slowly, if at all, as I tried to explain in the original post. Cold starts are no problem,
even with a half flat battery, as long as you 'catch it' on the throttle straightaway.
Hmmm again. Might have to pull out the starter and have it inspected/serviced. A friend up the road is a good technician. I've used the old trick, on
motorcycle commutators, of grinding a small piece of a hacksaw blade to the right thickness, then grinding a hook near the end, and using this tool to
clean out the gaps between the commutator segments. Also, we may be able to put it in the lathe.
One final question, for now: Is the solenoid mounted on the starter motor? Or is it separate from the starter? Silly question maybe, but I haven't
been so involved with a Kombi until now. And how do I get the starter out, once I have the Kombi up on stands?
I did raise the revs. to approx. 1500 - 2000, charging rate was very slow to change, and only went up about 0.5 volt.!! Alernators are susposed to
give a good charge at low speed.
One last, final question: Anyone know where I can buy that 5 m/m copper cable, in Melbourne, to run a new main supply lead up to the fusebox? Is there
a Kombi - friendly auto electrician out there somewhere? I'm determined to get on top of this - it's just a question of time, money and patience.
Thanks. And hope the Easter Bunny//Bilby visits you soon.
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mnsKmobi
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| posted on April 7th, 2004 at 04:04 PM |
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I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned it but you should also check the earth strap that runs from the body to the gearbox.
For wire in Melb I generally go to Jaycars. If you are a real tightarse you can get roll ends for half price but of course you have to be lucky. That
said, I wouldn't be running new wires until I'd checked the million and one things that have been suggested already.
These sites may help:
http://www.hallvw.clara.net/starter.htm#Starting
http://www.aircooledtech.com/solenoid_repair/
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Paul Aslanides
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| posted on April 8th, 2004 at 12:14 AM |
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Thankyou, you're quite right. And those webpages are just what I need. Much obliged.
Paul.
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Paul Aslanides
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| posted on June 14th, 2004 at 11:40 PM |
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Hi All.
Many thanks for your responses. Here's a report on recent work done :
Removed starter motor. Dismantled. Lightly skimmed the commutator in a lathe & cleaned between the commutator segments. Brushes and springs
are in v. good condition. Continuity test each commutator segment. Resistance test each segment, all have the same resistance.
Carefully adjusted comm. shaft shims for end float.
Dismantled solenoid, condition of contacts fair to good. Cleaned up the copper contacts lightly, reassembled. Checked starter operation on bench, no
load, O.K. Refit starter motor. Remove positive starter cable, cleaned terminals. Terminals are only crimped onto the heavy copper cable, so I've
run solder into the joints at each end to give better contact. Done the same with the copper earth strap, which is made of braided copper - I would
not use steel. Cleaned all terminals & re-connect wires to solenoid.
Start up - the battery would not turn the engine over fast enough. Battery must be at least four years old. Hook up a good, newish battery - spins
the engine over smartly and fires up. You Beauty !
Voltage at battery - at high engine revs - is now up to 13.6 to 13.7 volts. Using a better quality digital meter.
Warmed up the engine and connected up the old battery - it only just starts the engine. Voltage of this old battery, when not connected is 12.1
volts, but it clearly does not have much amp/current capacity. Plates are probably sulphated up. Or warped, or both.
To sum up: Starter motor is known to be good.
Connections good.
Battery no good - to be replaced asap.
Carefully monitor the charging rate.
Voltmeter is dash is no guide whatsoever - it reads 14.5 volts approx. when a good digital meter shows only 12.1 at the
battery, engine off. It's a standard type accessory voltmeter, no provision for adjustment or calibration. Purely decorative.
Notes: Starter motor commutator shaft end float - the thrust is taken by a thin shoulder,(part of the insulating material under the copper
segments), against the brush holder plate.
This starter does not appear to require a bush in the bell housing. It's a 2 litre Kombi, with automatic transmission, hence the bell
housing, and the starter, are both different from the manual model.
As said above, I'll be getting a new battery, and keeping a good eye on the charge rate. There is still no explanation as to why a new
battery goes down to a half-charge state - and stays that way - within a week after installation. Weeks of isolating the battery when the vehicle was
not in use made no difference - there are no electrical shorts or leaks.
Again, thanks for your advice.
Cheers. Paul.
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Peter Leonard
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| posted on June 15th, 2004 at 06:20 AM |
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that was comprehensive 
my money's on the regulator, prolly cuts the charging out too soon, but in winter batteries can suffer a tad. go for a good long drive, preferably to
a VW shop and get an alternator, unless you already have one. they have built in regulators and charge at lower revs.
have fun :bounce
let sleeping dubs lie
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mnsKmobi
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| posted on June 15th, 2004 at 10:18 AM |
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You could try the second circuit on this page:
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_30489/article.html
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Paul Aslanides
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| posted on June 15th, 2004 at 06:21 PM |
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Thanks Peter, and thanks mns.
That circuit might be just what I need. Any voltage rating on that diode ? Any voltage over say, 24 v ?
Any chance you can direct me to a circuit diagram, hopefully with a parts list, for a valve amplifier ? Parts that we can buy over the counter
here, preferably. Not too hard, not too easy. Can drill, hammer, solder etc.
Just hoping. Make a good project for either myself or my teenage son or both. Thanks. Paul.
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Peter Leonard
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| posted on June 16th, 2004 at 12:29 AM |
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cop these:
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KA1760&CATID=25&keywords...
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5370&CATID=25&keywords...
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5371&CATID=25&keywords...
the first one is exy but check out the specs.... Phwoooarrr!!
the next two are valve preamps, but check out the first one seriously, one hell of a project and seriously useful for destroying your eardrums
gracefully.
let sleeping dubs lie
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Paul Aslanides
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| posted on June 20th, 2004 at 01:02 AM |
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Thanks, Peter. Much obliged.
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