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 KruizinKombi
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| posted on January 27th, 2003 at 10:18 PM |
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Make sure you post some photos for us!:thumb
Kruizin Kol
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amazer
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| posted on January 28th, 2003 at 04:28 PM |
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I have exhaust wrapped the pipes only. Not the housing. I have completely boxed in the housing and blow cool air through it and out underneath the
car. I am more than happy to have my exhaust rust through. Its easy to replace. I can go to any muffler shop and buy a few bends. The alternative is
not very smart. Have your engine overheat or not be able to drive it to its potential, or possibly even the speed limit.
Pressure in front of a turbo is great. Thats what makes it spin. Exiting a turbo is another matter yes. I think our exhausts would have less
restriction than factory since they would have to have a heap more bends and length to travel from the front of a car and meet noise and emissions
standards? If the theory is that the keeping the exhaust hot increases pressure then hopefully it would cancel out. We at least have to remember that
there is never a perfect solution to any of our problems.
I'm going to assume that subarus didnt overheat. So why is this car? I assume cos the engine & radiator are at the back and not getting the
airflow. So you have to compensate for that.
To keep the engine cool you have to keep the heads and pistons cool. Keep the intake temps down. There's a reason intercoolers were invented.
The intake air cools the heads and valves. So colder air is better. You can throw more water at it, bigger radiator, but eliminate the source of the
heat as much as you can beforehand. Of course you cant blow hot air through a radiator and expect it to cool. Wrap the exhaust and blow that heat out
behind the car.
Try as best you can to eliminate the source of the heat first. I think it makes a lot of sense. Hoping I dont come accross as a butthead here. This is
what I have done (see pic) The turbo shouldnt be there in front of the fan or even in the engine bay, but that is how I have inherited the project. I
have plans of fixing that up as soon as santa brings me a good MIG welder. (cheap bastard he is! - no more socks n undies. I want a MIG!)
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Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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amazer
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| posted on January 28th, 2003 at 04:42 PM |
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oops didnt know there was 2 pages to that thread.
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on January 28th, 2003 at 07:14 PM |
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Good post!:thumb
Kruizin Kol
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speedster356
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| posted on January 28th, 2003 at 08:13 PM |
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I see ya point Amazer, I've started to ring around today for an intercooler. I don't think an air/air is the way to go as cool air as at a
premium at the moment but a nice remote mounted air/water with radiator should not be 2 hard to fit somewhere breezy.
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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Hutcho
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| posted on January 28th, 2003 at 08:28 PM |
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Pete, good to see you getting some results. Dont know if it has been mentioned before, but what about trying to shroud/separate the radiator from
underneath and bring two large ducts up into the shroud. It would then be totally segregated from the motor heat. You could still leave the fans in
there as well.
Blue, I WISH I was taking the soob wagen but unfortunately, it isnt finished. Im using Valla as an excuse to have it finshed. Besides, funds can only
LEAK out, not pour out otherwise there would be an in-house audit and I certainly dont want that!
Amazer, that shroud around you turbo.... THATS amazing! How does it go?? Keep it cool enough?
Pete, You REALLY need to put in an AIR/WATER intercooler. Im not too surprised from those intake temps your getting. In your first paragraph, you said
you were thinking of using an air/water ic and then started talking about using duct to cool the intercooler down. Have I gotten this wrong? The water
inside the ic system is what cools down the "heatsink". You can put the radiator that you use with the system anywhere you like to keep this
water cool.
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speedster356
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| posted on January 28th, 2003 at 08:52 PM |
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IC
Yeah Hutcho I have my head up my arse when it comes to IC's, I'm learning as I go
I was going to duct if air/air, but now air/water is the best way to go for the very reason you mentioned.
Trying to get a cheap Liberty IC at the moment. The dissadvantage is all the stuff to drive it....pump etc, all adds weight. I will need an EJ20T
after this.:o
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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Hutcho
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| posted on January 28th, 2003 at 09:51 PM |
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hee heee... no worries, I just wasnt sure, Pete.
Dont know if Ive mentioned it before but I picked up a EJ20T ic and water pump for $200. from mrt.com.au I think it was. Theyre both in absolute
excellent nick. All I need to get now, Is a motorbike radiator and the piping made up. Theyre pretty easy to come by I think as the WRX owners of
these cars pretty much toss them in favour of air/air ic's. I dont think the whole setup wiould weigh THAT much, maybe 5kg's and with the
extra performance and reliability you will get, Im sure youll forget all about that extra weight!!!
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amazer
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| posted on January 29th, 2003 at 02:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Hutcho
Amazer, that shroud around you turbo.... THATS amazing! How does it go?? Keep it cool enough?
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I've never ran it without the shroud, it would be pretty suicidal to do that. I'm running the heater boxes and a butchered set of
extractors. The 4 pipes merge right in front of the engine fan so it would be sucking very hot air without it. What you cant see is the kombi heater
fan on the right that is blowing hot air though the top of the shroud. I dont notice any engine temperature problems without the fan running but it
does make the shroud touchable. I dont have a temp gauge at all. But without the water pump running the temps skyrocket and it doesnt like to run,
wont idle. You can just see the subey intercooler on the right hand side in the dark.
[Edited on 29-1-2003 by amazer]
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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amazer
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| posted on January 29th, 2003 at 02:17 PM |
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turbo shroud production.
You can see the exhaust in this pic so you know why there's a shroud.
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 29th, 2003 at 08:01 PM |
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Sorry to come into this post so late.
You definitely need to bleed the air out of the cooling system. I put my bleed tank at the highest point. I have two radiator caps, one for filling,
and one that bleeds to the siphon tank. Do you have a siphon tank. below is a pic of my bleed point / tank (not finished in that pic)
I think you definitely need to suck air through a radiator. If you try and blow through it, the air from the fan comes off the fan blades at an angle,
a different angle to the radiator fins. This results in a lot of turbulence but not a lot of flow through the radiator. Drawing through create a low
pressure which sucks the air through parrallel to the radiator fins.
The fan shrouds are absolutely positively essential. The fan creates a low pressure behind the radiator. Air will try to rush in to replace the low
pressure. If you have no shroud, it just comes in from the sides of the fan. If you have a shroud, it has to come through the radiator.
Wrapping the exhaust and turbine housing reduces under bonnet temps and increases HP. If you want longevity don't wrap the turbine, just shield
it, but wrap the exhaust. People think the exhaust turbine is driven by pressure, it isn't really. It is driven by the energy of the hot gas,
kinetic energy. The hotter you keep the gas the more energy it has to drive the exhaust turbine. If you cool the exhaust gas you lose that energy and
instead try to drive the turbine with pressure, back pressure from the pistons, not a good idea, not very efficient. High performance turbo cars try
to keep the exhaust length to turbo as short as possible to keep in as much heat as possible.
100 deg C for a turbo non-intercooled is normal. An intercooler will cool the intake gas which has the advantaged of keeping the engine cooler
(already discussed), but the main effect is to increase the density of the air. The higher the density, the higher the mass of air pumped into the
engine, the higher the power made.
was that everything? I know most people covered those points, I just thought I would add my perspective
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 29th, 2003 at 08:08 PM |
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If you can find somewhere for a air-air intercooler go for one of those. A air to water IC will at best cool the air to water temperature. what's
your water temp now, 100+degC? Unless you have a dedicated water system, which will be more added weight. And then the water temp has to be higher
than the cooling air temp. And the intake air temp has to be higher than the water temp again.
A air to air IC at best will cool it to air temp, (a bit above, but much cooler than the air/water IC). I'm sure you will see air/air is used by
anyone serious.
My brothers Silvia has a very small compact intercooler in front of the left hand front wheel. It would be small enough to jam in you car somewhere.
Duct or blowing air from somewhere shouldn't be too much of a drama
[Edited on 29-1-2003 by Baja Wes]
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555bug
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| posted on January 30th, 2003 at 11:03 AM |
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you could also consider water/meth injection. I've help friends put together such systems. Whilst very primative they are effective. The other
big factor in you're excessivly high intake temp could well be that the turbo is overspeeding and outside of its efficiancy island. This really
gets the air nice and toasty  I'd call Ray Hall (turbo guru) and ask
for his suggestions. Perhaps a hi-flowed T28 or so could deliver more air at less boost much cooler. And lastly somewhere in this large thread I
noticed someone asking what temps were normal for the intake. Well the cooler the better really, the king of the turbos the R34 gtr with a huge Trust
bar and fin front mount IC can take like 2bar /30psi (when modded of course) and the inlet charge is less than 10deg above ambiant temp!! thats awsome
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 30th, 2003 at 01:20 PM |
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Just for those that haven't figured it out, air gets hotter as it is compressed.
You can calculate what temperature it should get to when compressed. A good approximation is reversible adiabatic (means no heat is transferred to or
from anything else) equation. All units need to be absolute.
T1/T2 = (p1/p2)^(y-1)/y
=> T2 = 303K / (14.7psi/21.7psi)^(1.4-1)/1.4
=> T2 = 339K which is 69 deg C
So just from compressing the air to 7 bar, the air temperature will increase from 30 deg C to 69 deg C. Then of course the turbo housing adds a bit
more heat, and soon you up to 100 deg C.
Of course if it is sucking in warm air at 45 degC, then the outlet temp from the turbo will be 82 deg C.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on February 1st, 2003 at 09:04 PM |
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That's basically what I said but in a less confusing way
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Buggy Boyz
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| posted on February 1st, 2003 at 09:24 PM |
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Also
The other reason you need a fan shroud is so that it forces air through the entire radiator and not just teh bit in front of the fan. As teh fans are
round the corners wouldn't see a lot of use without the shroud. Help increase the pressure of flow as well. |
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ricola
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| posted on February 5th, 2003 at 02:50 AM |
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I've been through all the problems you are describing to some extent with my EJ20T powered speedster.
Fit your radiator in the front, this is the only way to get decent air flow at speed without putting large ugly ducting on your car which I'm
sure you don't want.
Fit the Legacy air/water chargecooler and the extra radiator up front ahead of the main radiator. You shouldn't really be seeing intake temps
that high with only 7psi of boost...
Lag the exhaust manifold up to the turbo but only shield the turbo. As others have said, you want to keep the exhaust velocity up for good performance
of the turbo.
Make sure your system is bled properly but always use a thermostat.
Cheers,
Rich
All these mods are detailed on my site...
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speedster356
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| posted on February 5th, 2003 at 07:25 AM |
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Great to see you on the forum.
Have been to ur site a few times. I think I have controlled the hi temp issues in the cooling system with fan flow, bleed points etc, so I don't
think there is such a problem. I did consider an upfront radiator but being a full belly pan the running of coolant lines would be rather interesting.
I wouldn't want lines up thru the cockpit, as even when insulated they will still radiate heat and would look kinda out of place. The object is
to have a standard looking 550 from the outside so any ducting if required would be hidden within engine compartment. If I stay with the EA82T then I
will be fitting an intercooler, but I am leaning now to a EJ20T/gearbox as a package as in ur install. Have a supplier here in Sydney with factory new
EJ20T engines with only factory run miles for $3950 A.
Whats happening with the Ghia???
[Edited on 5-2-2003 by speedster356]
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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ricola
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| posted on February 5th, 2003 at 06:53 PM |
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Hi,
The main reason I said about the front mounted rad is that a UK company (Martin & Walker, also known as Technic) also supply Alfa powered cars and
they fit the rads up front, the standard grill seems to allow enough air flow. I think this would be the way to go for you, especially if you want an
EJ20T! You could do some quick calcs to compare the flow of an aftermarket fan and then compare this with the air flow through an intake area at a
given speed, you'd be surprised at the difference! I'm sure there must be some way of hiding the pipework, once lagged they wouldn't
radiate any noticeable heat. I don't notice any heat coming from my pipework in my false floor, I wish I did as this morning it was below
zero!
A friend is also considering putting the EJ20T in his Spyder and looked into using the Scooby transmission. It is possible to weld up the output and
to drive it through the 'front' wheels, but they are a weak link in the Subaru with only half the torque going to each axle... Food for
thought anyway, I know it's be nice to have the factory 5 speed and no adapter hassles...
The Ghia is on hold at the moment while I develop my 'bolt on' front double wishbone kit for VWs. The plan is to fit the first to the
speedster for testing and then get it productionisedhttp://www.ricola.co.uk/wishbone.htm Only problem is that my wife wants me to sell the Ghia and buy her a sensible car now
Rich
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speedster356
A.k.a.: Peter Mcleod
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| posted on February 5th, 2003 at 07:51 PM |
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Yeah the gearbox is a small problem. I'll most likely use the 2.5ltr gearbox and use a splinned adapter between the shafts. This has been used
with great success in NZ applications. The available torque is the killer, so I promise I'll be gentle.........
I think I will remain with the rear radiator, with ducting.
I have about a 600mm wide x 40mm deep ducting frontal area available between the engine and the firewall for air pickup (this is were the belly pan
ends), this should be ample for higher speed cooling.
WHAT...she who must be obeyed wants a WHAT????
cheers
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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ricola
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| posted on February 6th, 2003 at 02:17 AM |
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Lol! I gave her my old Fiat which forced the speedster into daily use no matter the weather. She has a baby and all of a sudden she wants something
better to compete with all the other 4x4s that the other mums have... Hopefully once she sees the Ghia finished sh'll change her mind...
What applications have you seen the 2.5 gearbox used in (NZ)?
Rich
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speedster356
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| posted on February 6th, 2003 at 06:16 AM |
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2.5 gearbox in Spyders.
There is a company in Europe that a Sydney supplier ships engine/gearbox packages 2. Can't remember the kit car name......
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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1303Steve
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| posted on June 16th, 2003 at 11:01 PM |
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Hi Peter
A good article to read at Autospeed about air/water ics http://www.autospeed.com/A_0090/cms/article.html
Some motors use a 2 stage thermostat, you cant remove these because as the thermostat opens a 2nd part of the thermostat closes of another passage.
To aid in bleeding I drilled a tiny hole in my thermostat, I can fill my motor at the header tank OK without having to bleed it, the expansion tank
takes care of any left over air bubbles as I drive.
Most VW & Audi radiators use rubber flaps that push away allowing airflow through the radiator at highway speeds but get sucked shut when the fan
comes on, this allows the fan to suck only air from the other side of the radiator.
1302Steve
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speedster356
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| posted on June 17th, 2003 at 10:41 PM |
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Yeah I did see on a Subaru/Spyder install in the states 3 "D" shaped rubber flaps on the fan shroud. I did wonder what they were.
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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