| [ Total Views: 589 | Total Replies: 19 | Thread Id: 24745 ] |
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 Bu99ed
A.k.a.: Ian Maclachlan
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| posted on June 21st, 2004 at 04:08 PM |
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Starter/ignition/Battery - FIXED
Hiya 
After buying my '72 Kombi last weekend and driving it back from the gold coast to Sydney with no problems (apart from burning a bit of oil (bad
smell) and sluggish performance (dizzy/carb problem?)) I went to drive it this weekend and it wouldn't start :cry
It tried to turn over for a spit second and then stopped. Im getting the lights coming on on the dash and the battery meter says its charged. There's
not even a click from the starter... I tried cleaning the terminals up on the starter motor but still no joy. I tried putting it in reverse and giving
it a godd rock backwards and forwards to see of the starter motor was locked. I was advised by someone to short the terminals on the starter motor
with a spanner, this did cause the starter to click (along with a nice big spark so I wont be doing that one again). Does this sound like the starter
motor or solinoid is stuffed or could it be a connection not being made in the ignition barrel?
Any ideas would be much appreciated before I start buying new bits to try and sort it out.
TIA
Ian
[Edited on 29-7-2004 by Bu99ed]
[Edited on 9-8-2004 by Bu99ed]
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Che Castro
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| posted on June 21st, 2004 at 06:27 PM |
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hehe ive done this before too
I accidentally shorted the two larger terminals on the back of my starter which is wrong and it arced about 2 inches from my face which isnt a nice
experience!
If the starter clicks and turns then I'd guess its the ignition switch, my one did this once. It went away after i inserted the key and tried again
and again
Jon
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Bu99ed
A.k.a.: Ian Maclachlan
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| posted on June 21st, 2004 at 06:57 PM |
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Cool A barrel change is a lot less messy than a starter motor so Ill be
giving that one a go first
Cheers Castro
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mnsKmobi
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| posted on June 22nd, 2004 at 03:46 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bu99ed
..snip..
I was advised by someone to short the terminals on the starter motor with a spanner, this did cause the starter to click (along with a nice big spark
so I wont be doing that one again). Does this sound like the starter motor or solinoid is stuffed or could it be a connection not being made in the
ignition barrel?
Any ideas would be much appreciated before I start buying new bits to try and sort it out.
TIA
Ian
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If the problem is the ignition switch, shorting the terminals at the solenoid should cause the starter motor to turn over. If understood you correctly
this didn't happen. Either there is something wrong with the starter motor or the contacts inside the solenoid are dirty.
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Che Castro
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| posted on June 22nd, 2004 at 08:09 PM |
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Yeah if the spade terminal and the big terminal are shorted with a screwdriver and u just get a click, then its the solenoid - it isnt able to get far
enough to engage into the gears and start turning over the engine.
I went for a while in my car with an old battery and tired starter and every now and then it'd just click and after a few tries it started. I got
sick of this so i went and bought a new battery, rebuilt starter and now it spins much faster and starts first time every time.
check your battery. You should ideally have over 13v when the car is off
Jon
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Bu99ed
A.k.a.: Ian Maclachlan
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| posted on June 22nd, 2004 at 11:05 PM |
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The battery meter reads over 13v when its off so I assume thats OK.
mnsKombi: Do you mean that shorting the terminals would actually start the engine? The starter did make a clicking noise but I didn't keep the
spanner on long enough to give it a chance for anything else as the sparks scared the crap out of me and I hate dicking about with electrics.
Sounds like it may be a good idea to rebuild the starter anyway. Is it a complicated job or just a case of pulling it apart and cleaning the terminals
up?
LoL you wouldn't believe I split the case once and rebuilt the engine would you... cant wait till my keeping your volkswagen alive book turns up so I
can start messing about things with confidence
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Bu99ed
A.k.a.: Ian Maclachlan
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| posted on June 27th, 2004 at 10:27 AM |
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Had another go at this this weekend and here's what Ive come up with...
Tried putting it in 3rd gear and pushing backwards
Shorting the solenoid on the 2 big bolts works (starter whirrs like crazy)
Shorting the solenoid battery terminal to the small terminal just causes the solenoid to click every now and then(doesn't turn the engine over (is
that what it's supposed to do? or should it just click?)).
Turning the ignition key you dont even get a click from the solenoid. (is this a seperate problem as shouldn't I get a click from the solenoid the
same as when I shout the spade to the battery terminal?)
Battery charge meter reads 12.5v
So from what you guys have helped me with it sounds like the solenoid is stuffed so Im going to order a new one. Any ideas how long a solenoid swap
would take? is it very easy to do with the engine still in?
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Paul Aslanides
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| posted on June 29th, 2004 at 10:40 PM |
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G'day. Suggest you read through a similar thread in this 'Tech Talk' list, re. " Type 2 Starter Problem".
You say that your "charge meter" is reading 13 volts, with the engine off. Any more than 12.8 volts from a new battery is very unusual, imho.
Those round - shaped in-dash voltmeters can be wildly optimistic. Mine is a so-called 'reputable' make, but it's about 1.5 volts out. A digital
meter from Dick Smith's is far more accurate. And checks lots of other stuff, too.
I dismantled my solenoid too. Didn't find much wrong with it.
Likewise the starter motor. All along it was the battery that was the root of the starting problem. Good leads, with soldered connections, is a
great help too.
Good Luck.
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mnsKmobi
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| posted on July 2nd, 2004 at 09:22 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bu99ed
..snip..
Turning the ignition key you dont even get a click from the solenoid. (is this a seperate problem as shouldn't I get a click from the solenoid the
same as when I shout the spade to the battery terminal?)
Battery charge meter reads 12.5v
So from what you guys have helped me with it sounds like the solenoid is stuffed so Im going to order a new one. Any ideas how long a solenoid swap
would take? is it very easy to do with the engine still in?
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I wouldn't get a solenoid just yet. From what you've said we can eliminate the battery and starter motor from the list of potential causes (b/c
shorting the terminals caused the starter motor to go). That leaves the solenoid or the ignition switch and the wires running to and fro. Sounds like
it could be both at fault! Shorting the bolt and spade terminal is effectively doing what the ignition switch does, so it should have turned the motor
over. From the fact that you don't get a click from the solenoid when you turn the key implies that the electricity is not getting from the ignition
switch. You could check that with a multimeter between earth and the lead connected to the spade terminal when someone is turning the key. As for the
solenoid, if you can wield a soldering iron you can take them apart and clean the terminals. See http://www.aircooledtech.com/solenoid_repair/ for details.
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on July 2nd, 2004 at 10:28 AM |
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Yes its a faulty solenoid....
Probably burnt contacts... You pull it apart and clean them or get a replacement starter motor assembly....
Another good [compulsary in MY Book] idea is to have a relay near the battery for the starter motor... then the key switch only activates the relay...
no load on the key switch - plus the power goes from the battery to the relay to the starter motor.... MORE power for the solenoid.... Most new cars
have this and ALL rear engined cars should have been made with it.... I have My relay mounted close to the starter motor, but near the battery is
OK.... still much better than the power going from the battery to the dash and back to the starter motor....
I don't know why You were pushing the car backwards in 3rd gear...
One of the locals started His 200HP Tractor with a screwdriver years ago, the tractor was in gear and went thru part of his house!!!!
Shorting the terminals on the starter motor is very close to a dead short circuit, thats why they can arc.. its like welding....
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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KruizinKombi
A.k.a.: Col
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| posted on July 2nd, 2004 at 11:21 AM |
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Assuming your battery is ok, and your terminals on both the battery are ok:
1) Try running a jumper wire from the battery positive to the spade terminal on the starter. This should start the vehicle if the ignition is switched
on. If so, you know the problem is either wiring or the switch itself. If it doesn't, the problem is the starter or solenoid. This is when you try
shorting the two nuts on the starter... if the starter turns, it's ok, and therefore the solenoid is the culprit.
2) Find the wire that supplies power to the ignition switch, and the wire that runs from the ignition switch to the starter, and short them together
with the ignition on. This should also start the vehicle. If it does, the problem is the switch. Replace it, or put in a temporary push-button. (I did
this once and it stayed in for 3 years!  ) If step 2 doesn't work, but
step 1 worked, then the problem is wiring...
Kruizin Kol
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Bu99ed
A.k.a.: Ian Maclachlan
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| posted on July 23rd, 2004 at 10:35 AM |
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Got a second hand starter put in last weekend (assumed it was OK). turned the key and didnt even get any lights on the dash come on. Starting to
wonder if the battery is stuffed as well... going to buy a battery tester this weekend and check. As my old starter is now out of the van I'm going
to get a soldering iron and pull the solenoid appart and clean it up and put the original back in the van... keeping my finguers crossed
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aggri1
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| posted on July 23rd, 2004 at 01:41 PM |
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I had a similar problem with a 71 Kinga Ute. I cleaned contacts, ran the starter briefly with a spare bit of wire, etc... In the end I borrowed a
battery from the VN and it started OK. Strange, because the tip-tray was working just fine, and that runs off the battery.
Maybe try this site for solenoid relay instructions although there was
also another great site I saw that gave instructions to do the same thing but I can't remember the site...
Good luck mate.
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Bu99ed
A.k.a.: Ian Maclachlan
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| posted on July 25th, 2004 at 01:03 PM |
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1 new battery and a cleaned up solenoid later and still no joy 
the lights are now coming on on the dash and horn and headlights working (Old battery was completely dead). The engines now turning over from shorting
out the solenoid. Only thing that is left is the actual ignition switch I think.
I just cant believe that 3 things went wrong at the same time lol
Thanks for all your help and advice
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General_Failure
A.k.a.: Tristan
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| posted on July 25th, 2004 at 11:25 PM |
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I know this is a bit late in the thread, but it reminds me so much of what my bloody kombi does. If the terminal connections aren't ABSOLUTELY
perfect, I'm lucky if I can even get a click out of the solenoid. When i went to start the engine aftyer the rebuild yesterday, that was exactly what
happened.
I like the idea of the relay for the solenoid. I usually put relays on just about everything. never thought of that. how many amps would thr reelay
need to be. I have no idea how much the starter solenoid draws.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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Bu99ed
A.k.a.: Ian Maclachlan
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| posted on July 25th, 2004 at 11:37 PM |
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Hmmm maybe Ill try replacing the spade terminals on the wires that go onto the solenoid...
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General_Failure
A.k.a.: Tristan
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| posted on July 26th, 2004 at 12:47 AM |
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...oops. I meant to say battery terminals. i goofed. Mind you, I have had problems with the wire to the solenoid before.....getting good continuity
with the multimeter doesn't mean it's good. All peripherals can work perfectly and the starter can just sit there. If it can't draw enough amps, it
does nothing...except possibly make the bottleneck red hot and start melting things....I hate when that happens. I had to bypass the starter solenoid
wire on my beetle after a transmission swap. For some rason it went open circuit.
Anyway, just check that all connections are sturdy. And as far as I'm concerned, if in doubt, replace it (especially regarding wires) or at least
carry a spare if something still sort of works.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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Bu99ed
A.k.a.: Ian Maclachlan
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| posted on July 29th, 2004 at 04:39 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by KruizinKombi
2) Find the wire that supplies power to the ignition switch, and the wire that runs from the ignition switch to the starter, and short them together
with the ignition on. This should also start the vehicle. If it does, the problem is the switch. Replace it, or put in a temporary push-button. (I did
this once and it stayed in for 3 years! )
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So which one of these puppies is it? and how do I short them together or put a push button on them? I also couldn't see how to get the barrel out
(was nice and easy on my split). It all looks like a sealed unit.
Electrics make me feel :puke
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General_Failure
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| posted on July 29th, 2004 at 09:38 PM |
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...so that's what it's meant to look like under there!!!! I'm missing so many parts.
Anyway, the easiest thing to do is to unplug the wires from the steering column. You see how it feeds up to the back of where the ignition barrel is?
There's a couple of different modular plugs there. They just unplug, if I remember correctly....I hope I do!!! If I'm right, just get a multimeter
or a test lamp, find the +ve connector, and then grab a bit of wire, plug it in, and start striking it against other wires until you (hopefully) find
the starter one. I don't know the layout of the plug, and in my experience, colours can vary. Once you have found the starter one, and if the engine
cranks (won't start, power only going to starter), tap into the wires, go to supercheap or wherever, and get yourself a starter switch. My soon to be
departed beetle has one of them.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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mnsKmobi
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| posted on July 30th, 2004 at 09:39 AM |
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Before putting in a relay or changing the switch you need to be sure that it is the problem. Check if there is +12v from the wire that connects to the
spade terminal on the solenoid when someone is turning the ignition key to start. If not then the ignition switch is probably the culprit. I haven't
tried replacing it but it looks like a fair bastard of a job so seriously consider the push button approach. The details of replacing the switch are
on the following site:
http://www.specialpatrolgroup.co.uk/spooky/barrel/barrel.html
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Bu99ed
A.k.a.: Ian Maclachlan
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| posted on August 8th, 2004 at 02:56 PM |
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Well I bought myself a multi meter, installed a push button switch and got the van going just took it for a spin round the block.
Just like to thanks to all you guys for all your help and advice :bounce It would have cost me a lot more money without you
I still can't believe that 3 things all went wrong at the same time lol
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on August 8th, 2004 at 05:16 PM |
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Congratulations... a Job well done....
The weakest link is the key ignition switch... if it had a relay placed near the starter motor in the first place....
You probably wouldn't have had 2 of the problems...
You are never going to get the full power to the solenoid while ever the power has to go from the battery to the ignition switch and back to the
starter motor....
A relay would also stop pitting of the contacts inside the ignition switch as a Relay draws a very small amount of current...
Again, congratulations on a fine job....
with 3 different items faulty... an auto electrician would have had problems...
the push button [if heavy duty] will last a long time... and will look cool too.. just like the early VWs....
cheers
Lee
[Edited on 8-8-2004 by 68AutoBug]
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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