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 VWFREAK
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VWFREAK
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 12:53 PM |
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Super chargers.
Has anyone out there ever attempted to graft a toyota super charger onto a T1 before. I'm after some advise on the installation and past problems
etc.
I intend using it on a T1, 1640 with Twin Kads. Any ideas?
:vader
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 01:39 PM |
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The CBB Drag car has used one and even two of these blowers on a type 1 engine.
They are probably more suited to type 4 engines tho - there was a guy at the nationals with this set up.
I don't know how you intent running the dual kadrons thru one blower tho! One carby would be used. But really for it to be effective you need to
inject.
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 01:40 PM |
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The homegrown methods of using them that I have seen have been shady at the most generous...
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VWFREAK
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 01:45 PM |
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Thanks guys, I'll keep on researching it further.
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Secoh
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 03:20 PM |
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There are two main toyota superchargers you will come across:
SC12 which is from the 4AGZE 1600cc corolla which pumps 1200cc and;
SC14 from the 1GGZE 2.0L six cylinder from the Soarer, Supra and Celsior. The se flow 1400cc.
Both of these are only good for about 12,000 to 14,000 rpm before they cavitate and get excessive wear.
They are not clearanced to have fuel pass through them in a draw through application, so if it's used in draw-through they tend to wear the coating
off the rotors and wear relatively rapidly.
They use a clutch and bypass valve which allows the supercharger to be automatically disengaged at idle. It only engages once the motor reaches a
certain rpm (1500 I think?). It's not a good idea to switch them Mad Max style for a number of reasons.
There is some vacuum hoses that fit to the casing which people often disconnect, these need to be plumbed in properly as they pressure compensate the
oil chamber in the charger to prevent the oil seals leaking or blowing out.
They run about 8psi stock boost from memory though I could be wrong here. Pulley size and engine capacity dictates boost level. an SC14 set to run at
a 1:1 ratio would be the best compromise between intake heat and boost. You really should run an intercooler with any forced induction project, but
you cannot do this with a draw-through system.
The other common charger is the Eaton M90 as used on the commodore, this is a bit large for anything under 2.5-3.0L.
SC12 is worth about $300 and an SC14 is worth about $350-$450 depending on the importer. any more than that and you are being robbed. I got my Eaton
M90 for $600.
Lots of good general info at http://www.performanceforums.com in the tech
section.
Hope this helps 
[Edited on 11-8-2004 by Secoh]
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Baja Wes
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 07:15 PM |
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there's another supercharger thread here;
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=23611
And by the way, air doesn't cavitate, superchargers don't cavitate. Cavitation is where a liquid flashes off (boils) into a gas due to a localised
low pressure. It happens in a destructive manner, such that the gas bubbles form and collapse rapidly. It happens on the low pressure (trailing) side
of impellors spinning in a liquid.
Air doesn't cavitate, because air doesn't boil, because air is a gas.
The power required to drive a supercharger (or fan) is cubicly related to the speed of rotation, so you reach a certain point where the supercharger
belt just won't have enough grip to drive it any faster. The belt will start slipping. Trying to overdrive it further will just result in more belt
slippage.
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 07:52 PM |
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Thes blowers work best with some fuel being fed thru (ie - running wet). Both the CBB drag car which uses two of these and several hotrods (yes these
same blowers are being used on small block chevs) also running wet have experienced high rev cavitation because it is a vapour being compressed.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 08:34 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HotRodMatt
experienced high rev cavitation because it is a vapour being compressed.
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They are mis-using the term cavitation. I don't know what they are trying to explain, or what the symptoms are, but it's not cavitation.
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 barls
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 08:40 PM |
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i agree with wes as a person qualified hydralics maintaner a gas can not cavitate because the definition of cavitation is when the pressure decreases
to a point at which soluble gases defuse from a liquid in which they are defused
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 08:40 PM |
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It is cavitation. Vapour forms bubbles! The compression of a wet gas makes it near liquid. Hence cavitation occurs.
Even a Toyota employed specialist confirmed it!
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barls
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 08:46 PM |
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ok im walking away from this one cause i was taught some thing different in my hydralics and pneumatics course.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 08:54 PM |
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well I can tell you none of the engineering I have ever working with would ever call what your describing cavitation, and it doesn't fit with any
engineering definition I have ever seen for cavitation, therefore it would be safe to conclude it is not technically cavitation.
I have seen and investigated the explosion of very large industrial pumps which was aggrevated by cavitation. trust me, it's a different animal.
cavitation may have been the best way the toyota guy could approximately describe it.
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 08:58 PM |
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how do you explain cavitation under an aeroplanes wing then?
By the way. The Toyota guy - he's the head of technical services.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 09:04 PM |
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you don't have cavitation under an aeroplanes wing.
Show me anywhere a definition of cavitation that would describe air flow under a plane wing.
After thinking more about the cavitation in the air/fuel supercharger, I suppose the fuel droplets are droplets of liquid although very small, and you
could get an apparent cavitation within the droplet, but I personally would be describing it more like the fuel flashing off. It's not true
cavitation.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 09:23 PM |
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I would actually be interested to see what the toyota guy actually said. I would be very suprised if he said outright, "oh, it's cavitation". He
may have described it another way and it has just been spread be word of mouth in a more simplied description simply being "cavitation".
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 09:27 PM |
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His warning was to the chev guys using them with overhead injection that it was tried by Toyota and the vapour caused cavitation at the rate of
overdrive being used to feed the SBCs. Only the idle fuel is delivered above with the main fuel coming in directly into the ports.
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Secoh
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 09:41 PM |
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Look, whatever, they don't bloody work after 14,000rpm. Apparently, my mate's brother's uncle's nephew's dog's owner's roommate (twice removed)
once heard a bloke in a pub say that after a certain rpm an air pump will not draw in any more atmosperic air due to the time it takes for air under
atmospheric conditions to fill the void the rotor displaces as the rotor is moving faster than the air does, therefore it's like egg-beating
thickened cream with the beater on mega high speed. The medium doesn't get pumped anywhere, it just sits there fat dumb and happy.
Fine, it's not cavitation, but the effect is the same, minus the pitting degredation and engineering banter.
I'll have to go dig out my fluids textbook for the full description but my hazy memory tells me Wes that you are calling two symptoms one thing.
[Edited on 11-8-2004 by Secoh]
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Che Castro
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| posted on August 11th, 2004 at 09:42 PM |
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you guys are too anal
chill out !
Jon
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Baja Wes
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| posted on August 12th, 2004 at 07:05 AM |
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Sorry about being anal, it's an engineer thing. I don't like seeing
terms mis-used.
We're all here to learn, I am no different. If someone can show me where a respectable source has defined cavitation as something other than what I
have been taught and what I know from experience, then I'd like to see it for my own learning.
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VWFREAK
A.k.a.: Peter / Bones
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| posted on August 12th, 2004 at 07:34 AM |
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Thanks for the info, does anyone out there have step by set instructions for instilation, which may assist me. I'm new to the supercharger world,
but kean to learn.
Thanks guys
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wacked1
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| posted on August 12th, 2004 at 10:02 AM |
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can't help there but there was a bus with this kind of SC it was owned by greedy51 if you u2u him and ask politely and offer him sexual favors he
might help you.
cheers
ron
YOU HAVE JUST BEEN DAKED
don't worry it's a VW thing
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on August 12th, 2004 at 10:06 AM |
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It's owned by someone else now and he's trying to sell it.
I wouldn't be using that sort of set up - for starters you really need injection to make them work properly and using the standard manifolds won't
do the job.
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wacked1
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| posted on August 12th, 2004 at 10:15 AM |
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don't really know much about the bus. and would agree with you there matt to run injection. a lot of holden v6 are running this SC aswell
YOU HAVE JUST BEEN DAKED
don't worry it's a VW thing
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boof2332
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| posted on August 13th, 2004 at 02:15 AM |
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Back onto blowers, i do not think there are many modern blowers which would work as a draw through. They are all alot more efficient than their
predessors and are designed for a blow through injection set up.
I got one last week off ebay...there are plenty for sale...the one to get if you do not choose a toyota model is the eaton m45 and m62 off the
slkmercedes and c200 kompressor 2.0l.
There is a m45 for $205us...with shipping landed was $400.
Really compact and fit well ina bug set up.....here is a pic.
This is an eaton m62 for 2.3-3.0l...m45 looks the same in most case....they all vary slightly from mobel to model.
Matt
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