| [ Total Views: 1224 | Total Replies: 23 | Thread Id: 2927 ] |
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 blup58
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| posted on January 9th, 2003 at 03:26 PM |
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Brakes
G'day Guys and Gals
I know this is probably a question that has been asked many times on this forum so I apologise if we are all revisiting this. But I have a Brakes
config question.
Background:
I am doing a full body off resto on a 58 beetle, engine will be a 2110cc therefore according to rego rules up here in QLD I need to go for at least
front end disc brakes.
I was intending to try and slip 17" wheels in there. Obviously not looking at sticking with wide 5 bolt config.
Therefore my questions are as follows:
Has anyone fitted 17" wheels to a similar era beetle to this and what brake config did they use, where from, how much??
I have one option available to me that uses a ford stud pattern.
Also please give me thoughts on rear discs, big difference or not worth while?? Have heard differeing opinions on this
Was curious to know about adapting prosche brakes, therfore can anyone enlighten me this, I have read a couple of brief articles on this but am
confused I didn't want to have to do massive mods is there a porsche model that the brakes basically slip on, are they worth while and are the
affordable $$ for recon set??
I hope this email isn't complete jibberish, at the end of the day I think the main thing I am trying to find out is has anyone fitted wheels of
this size using disc brakes, what were they and $$
Cheers
Brad
[Edited on 9-1-2003 by blup58]
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Che Castro
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| posted on January 9th, 2003 at 04:12 PM |
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Hi, my bug is a 63 so its pretty similar underneath. If u want discs, u might as well just swap pans seeing that the body is off.
Get hold of an IRS pan. U get the later stock discs (which are good for modified engines even) and u get the later suspension, tranny, front end etc.
The stock discs dont suffer from fade under street conditions, they will fade under track conditions. They can be cross drilled to alleviate
this.
The wheel pattern can be adapted to porsche or whatever pretty easily. Just as long as u dont want wide 5.
The porsche 944 discs can be put on the IRS back as can a couple of other systems.
Give V-Force a call as they do disc conversions a lot ph 9743 1247
What wheels are u going to get? Maybe porsche cups? that would look very nice 
Jon
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amazer
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| posted on January 9th, 2003 at 06:47 PM |
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Jen and I were just talking about people like you last night! not in a bad way. What are you doing with the original stuff? Does it still have
original stuff, gearbox, 36 hp engine?
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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blup58
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| posted on January 9th, 2003 at 08:29 PM |
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Che Castro, thanks for that. Unfortunately/fortunately can't swap pan already pretty much finshed restoring this: welded in new pan halves,
front bracing to help stiffen front beam, relocated shifter location back a few inches shortened shift rod, mods for dual master cylinder, tranny
strap and IRS conversion, sand blasted etch primed and coated in POR15.
Also already have later model trailing arms and tranny to suit (with close ratios)etc..
Cool suggestion but and I'm there with you, (I should have mentoned that up front).
This V-force....any one out ther had any work done by them??? Idea of Cost???? Where are they based?
Porsche cups would be nice, but I really like the Turbo Twist (I think thats what there called).
You mentioned fade in stock system, how bad (I suppose realitive to how far you push it) ?? Cost to cross drill?? Who can do this in Brissy??
Anyone got contacts for second hand porsche rims, 17" ??
Anyone done the porsche conversion???
Cheers
Brad
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Dasdubber
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| posted on January 9th, 2003 at 09:07 PM |
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Just so others know Brad (blup58) has a pair of CB performance dropped spindles for link pin front end that allows you to run the 4bolt beetle discs
up front....is it legal to redrill these to suit say a ford/holden pattern?
Does the 944 rear brakes bolt up to beetle IRS trailing arms or do you have to run the entire 944 rear suspension/brake set up?
Sorry to butt in on your post Brad! If you go with something else up front I will always buy those spindles back off you since I am now going to run
discs up front on the "stink bug"
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blup58
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| posted on January 10th, 2003 at 10:15 AM |
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Feedback on Al's email and questions anyone????
No problems with butting in on my post Al....again.
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vdub2c
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 posted on January 10th, 2003 at 11:44 AM |
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hmmm
| Quote: | Originally
posted by amazer
Jen and I were just talking about people like you last night! not in a bad way. What are you doing with the original stuff? Does it still have
original stuff, gearbox, 36 hp engine?
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you musta been talking about my resto as well then! nothing bad i hope chris 
anyways my 2 cents:
i had rear discs (from a porsche 944) and my rear end shat itself.. i went to the engineer and asked what my options were, now i have a 1.8turbo
subaru engine in the back of the bug and he said the stopping difference at 60kms will only be 1 - 2 feet comparing the porsche discs and the standard
1972 drums... so my advice, don't go for porsche - that's number one... parts are too expensive etc.
number 2 - stick with the original drums or upgrade to super bug drums or type three or sumthing similar.
also, you can get a NEW set of dics redrilled to whatever stud pattern you want for approx $500, with studs and nuts etc included.
the 944 does not bolt up to standard beetle trailing arms.. i wish they did though! so forget porsche.. look to beetle.
and THAT is from experience... a very costly experience.
hope it helps, and good luck with your mods, sounds like it's gunna rock!
Yianni.
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blup58
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| posted on January 10th, 2003 at 01:22 PM |
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Thanks for the feed back Yianni, that was exactly the type of feedback I was after. I had also heard from a guy at work who is restoring an older
model car (not a VW though) that generally speaking converting to rear discs won't necessarily make a huge difference in stopping power. but I
guess it all comes down to $$, personal preference and what you intend to use it for.
What wheels do you have on your car??
But may head towards upgrading rear drums unless anyone else has strong feelings to suggest otherwise re: rear drums vs discs then I would love to
hear it
Probably end up saving a few bob too....
Amazer.....in answer to you question I still have the original engine, and swing axle gear box etc, not sure what I am going to do with them, at first
I was intending to keep them in case I ever wanted to head back towards original, but I think I may be too far down the track for that now, I really
probably have no more use for them, but I imagine I would get next to nothing for them so I guess I'll just hang on to them for now. Unless
someone is desperately after them and is prepered to make a fair offer.
Cheers
Brad
[Edited on 10-1-2003 by blup58]
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Che Castro
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| posted on January 10th, 2003 at 04:18 PM |
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hey im not someone who turns a split window bug into a chop top!
im a bit of a vintage purist myself. I refuse to cut the dash, or cut it anywhere that is irreversible (i will drill a hole in the body to let
cables or lines thru as they aren't hard to reverse).
when i swap pans i will keep all the original stuff, like the tranny, wheels, etc.
Yeah i think its a bit of a misnomer about drums vs discs. the main advantage is that discs have better modulation because they aren't self
energising, i.e. you can sense when they are about to lock up and u can threshold brake. discs also radiate any water or crap away from the braking
area whereas drums radiate crap towards the braking area.
Drums are self energising so they can be more powerful than discs in some situations.
Yeah ive only driven with the late discs a couple of times. But i know from a friend who is a VW mechanic that the stock discs are fine for street
use, and only really need cross drilling for track use
Jon
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Dasdubber
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| posted on January 11th, 2003 at 02:15 PM |
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Here I am butting in again.....
What could you do though if you want to run 17in rims in a modern (eg. ford) pattern on the rear? You can't really redrill the stock drums to
suit can you?
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amazer
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| posted on January 11th, 2003 at 03:38 PM |
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Nup. Wasnt saying anything bad about modifiying things.
Was just saying how 36ers are cool. I like putting 36hp stuff next to type 4 stuff. Its looks so cute. (yeah i'm insane). Lets face it, anyone
who designs an engine that has components that are designed to bend and flex is pretty bloody insane anyway (pushrods) So maybe thats why I like
em.
Depends what you call a fair price. Most of the stuff I have was either given to me or swapped for alcohol. I dont think most people who modify
something go back to stock. The stuff usually sits in the garage taking up room, the car gets sold, and the stuff needs to go. You can either give it
away to a good home (someone who hoards stuff forever), or throw something that is getting rare on the tip.
Anyway enough preaching from me. Thats how I feel. Shoot me. Im not saying that just so I can get this stash, even though I WOULD certainly like it.
QLD is a bit far away for me, (missed that on first read) but maybe there is someone up there who is 36hp needy.
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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blup58
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| posted on January 13th, 2003 at 01:10 PM |
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Can anyone comment on Shermans Brakes from the Gold Coast????
Cheers
Brad
P.S Anyone have any contact details for him????
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Che Castro
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| posted on January 13th, 2003 at 08:14 PM |
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I have heard some bad things about Sherman's brakes, from a mechanic and some other forum members.
Yeah i personally think 36hp engines are interesting, i would really like to tear one down and rebuild it and drive it. They are quite cute because
they are so small and old. Heh i didnt know the pushrods were supposed to flex? Are 36hp pushrods the ones that are integrated with the lifter?
Keep all the original stuff! the body might miss the tranny, it might get lonely seriously though, keep it for vintage sake!
If you are going to a modern pattern (one that is close together) probably the best option is to go with the stock beetle disc system. ALthough ur
running a K&L front end aren't u? I think u can adapt the stock beetle discs to that front end, not sure about that. Remember the stock
discs wont have any problems with availability of parts, and they are proven to be reliable and powerful.
Stick with the stock 4 stud drums out back, then u dont have to worry about front/rear balance. They were intended to be used with the discs.
what wheels are u going to put on? |
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blup58
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| posted on January 14th, 2003 at 09:28 AM |
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G'day Che Castro
I think I will keep all of the original stuff, maybe I'll use them on another resto down the track or maybe help someone else out down the track
when they need something. Certainly won't be throwing them out thats for sure...
The wheels I really want to run are the porsche turbo twists however $$ will probably stop me from doing this, so at this stage I still have an open
pick.....however may do similar rear brake system to Wes in his Baja conversion used an old ford rear disc brake, Custom Off Roads here in Brissy does
the conversion, will then get fronts redrilled to suit, therefore maybe limited to ford pattern, however before I confimr anything will check to see
if they can redrill to suit anything. I think the biggest issue with aftermarket wheels is the offset, George (from Custom Offroads) said fronts had
to be less than 12mm offset from memory, but before I get there need to save a bit more $$ then will reconfirm everything.
Cheers
Brad
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vdub2c
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| posted on January 14th, 2003 at 09:35 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
Here I am butting in again.....
What could you do though if you want to run 17in rims in a modern (eg. ford) pattern on the rear? You can't really redrill the stock drums to
suit can you?
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i'm not 100% wether you can or you can't, BUT my mate has stock vw beetle drums on a '67 and he has redrilled them to accept ford stud
pattern.. but i don't know if that's a no-no... i'm pretty sure you CAN do it though.
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 Bizarre
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| posted on January 14th, 2003 at 10:04 AM |
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Brad
have you thought about running Type 3 drums on the back. They are much larger than stock and have great stopping power. Still VW parts and very cheap
and a relatively simple swap over. Add T3 torsion bars and u have a vast improvement.
Futue te ipsum!!!
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vdub2c
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| posted on January 14th, 2003 at 11:17 AM |
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amen to that...
| Quote: | Originally
posted by blue74l
Brad
have you thought about running Type 3 drums on the back. They are much larger than stock and have great stopping power. Still VW parts and very cheap
and a relatively simple swap over. Add T3 torsion bars and u have a vast improvement.
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not that it needs to be agreed with cos everyone knows he's right...
but i agree 100% with that. 
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555bug
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| posted on January 14th, 2003 at 12:33 PM |
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Just my 2c : I've fitted Porsche 944 brakes to my ongoing project 61. The rear brakes from a pre 86 2.5l SOHC are a direct bolt on. The traling
arms are near identicle so you can just bolt on the complete rear end if you wish. The font involves a bit more stuffing around with some major
modifications necessary to the hub. The benifit of this setup is that you can more or less remove the complete braking system from a car that made
200+ hp and drop it onto your bug. Therefor you can be sure A) that it will handle whatever power a VW can produce B) is designed to work as a whole
c) it is designed to last. Parts are not super cheap for this setup but then again they are reasonable like $180 for front rotors $100 for pads etc..
I guess if you are going for Porsche wheels at a later stage it would also make a lot of sence to go for Porsche brakes as they are designed for each
other. |
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blup58
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| posted on January 14th, 2003 at 02:54 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 555bug
Just my 2c : I've fitted Porsche 944 brakes to my ongoing project 61. The rear brakes from a pre 86 2.5l SOHC are a direct bolt on. The traling
arms are near identicle so you can just bolt on the complete rear end if you wish. The font involves a bit more stuffing around with some major
modifications necessary to the hub. The benifit of this setup is that you can more or less remove the complete braking system from a car that made
200+ hp and drop it onto your bug. Therefor you can be sure A) that it will handle whatever power a VW can produce B) is designed to work as a whole
c) it is designed to last. Parts are not super cheap for this setup but then again they are reasonable like $180 for front rotors $100 for pads etc..
I guess if you are going for Porsche wheels at a later stage it would also make a lot of sence to go for Porsche brakes as they are designed for each
other.
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555bug: How did you go sourcing these parts, I'm in Brisbane as well so if I go down this road any clues as to source would come in very
handy.
blue74l & vdub2c: Type 3 was another option I was intending to investigate but what about the bolt hole config on a drum???
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555bug
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| posted on January 14th, 2003 at 05:43 PM |
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you could try T&D automotive on 3852 1730 they often have bits lying around. If they can't help you out they should be able to point you in
the right direction. Also check out local parts traders etc... I've seen loads of 944, 968 bits over the years. Just take your time and
you'll save a hear of cash. |
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blup58
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| posted on January 14th, 2003 at 06:57 PM |
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G'day 555Bug
Pardon my ignorance but is 'pre 86 2.5l SOHC ' referrring to a porsche???
Did you do the work for the front brakes as well, who did the machining work etc??
For all that have given me info so far...much appreciated. Best way to learn before trying it yourself.
Cheers
Brad
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555bug
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| posted on January 14th, 2003 at 10:31 PM |
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yes to that the 944 came in three models 2.5 sohc, 2.5l dohc and a 2.5 dohc turbo. The brakes from these models got progressivly larger, the first
had single pot brakes oll round while the turbo got twin pots all round. Anyway you can pretty much mix and match if you like. Do a search for MBT
in germany (.de) and have a look at the stuff they can do. I can post the diagrams of the work required to the hubs if you require it. As for
machinist, Gavin is just round the corner from George at custom off road. He took care of my stuff as the work is pretty tricky (within .005 in
places). Good luck |
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 17th, 2003 at 02:17 PM |
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| Quote: | Although rear disks
look prettier they aint worth the money.
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Depends on how much money you spend really.
I started with 4 wheel drums. Because of the baja tyre sizes the fronts locked really early.
So I put type 3 rear drums on. They have bigger wheel cylinders and evened up the bias. Stopping was good, although you could notice some fading from
speeds over 100kph.
The advantage of discs over drums is fade resistance, not stopping power. drums will lock all 4 wheels, anymore power than that will still lock the
wheels.
I then went to beetle front discs, type 3 rear drums. The peddle felt a little lighter, and fade resistance was better.
I know have falcon rear discs (which use the type 3 hub and therefore stub pattern) and the brake peddle feels much the same. Don't know about
fade resistance yet cos I haven't tried, but they are vented so I wouldn't expect the rear to fade.
The falcon brakes have a very similar piston size to VW front discs so end up as a good balance for a Baja / Buggy.
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555bug
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| posted on January 18th, 2003 at 01:44 AM |
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the system that I have adapted is based on the symple fact that the braking power of the vw (while ample) was developed for a car producing some 50
odd hp. Now I'm sure that with some tweaking a dub system could handle more than double that. But I mean fact is even a standard system will
pull up a drag bug. The Porsche stuff was designed for a car with four times the power of a bug, its therefor safe to assume that whilst its possibly
overkill, the dub will handle whatever power it's able to produce. I also know that we are really only touching on this subject but I feel that
the benifits offered by four wheel disks can't be ignored. I mean I changed to disks just 'cause I was sick of adjusting those blood drums. |
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555bug
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| posted on January 18th, 2003 at 03:32 PM |
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no you are right there, the type 3 stuff is an excellent upgrade. But as you mention it is hourses for courses. Just about anything can be made to
fit with a little time and effort, the rears of an old XF falcon are an excellent swap as Wes mentioned for sub 200 if you have some type 3 hubs, or
you could just go for holden stuff for not much more. I just went for the Porsche stuff 'cause it was there and the price was right, but you are
right you don't have to go crazy to improve the performance level considerably. I just like disks |
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