| [ Total Views: 2382 | Total Replies: 22 | Thread Id: 309 ] |
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 helterskelter400
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| posted on September 1st, 2002 at 11:30 PM |
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electronic points kits
i put a kit on another car years ago & it worked well (no more checking the points).
does anyone run these, what are they like & what are the options?
thanks
hs400 |
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jakriz
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| posted on September 2nd, 2002 at 06:42 AM |
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no-points
I've had a Pertronix ignitor set now for at least 4-5 years that I can remember & I've never had to touch them or adjust the timing
since, they are brilliant!.
Jak
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Grey 57
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| posted on September 2nd, 2002 at 06:34 PM |
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No points
I had a Compufire (Hall Cell) ignition in for a couple of months now with no probs so far. 1600 single port runs smoother, idles better and seems to
have more power. Great to get rid of those crappy points.
:thumb
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helterskelter400
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| posted on September 2nd, 2002 at 10:13 PM |
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no points
thanks
i'll now focus my searching on pertronix/compufire.
hs400 |
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aussiebug
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| posted on September 3rd, 2002 at 02:09 PM |
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Grey 57, and the group.
One thing you should be aware of is that these devices (Petronix and Compufire) result in even firing, which is fine if you have a doghouse fan
shroud, but should NOT be used if you have the older in-shroud oil cooler.
The older style cooling system needs the 3 degree retard on No3 cylinder to prevent it detonating under heavy load, since it runs hotter than the
other cylinders.
With the doghouse cooling set-up, all cylinders get the same cold cooling air so the even firing distributors (any vacuum distributors with Pertronix;
71+ distributors; and [shudder] most 009s) can be used.
For the older in-shroud cooler engines, you can still use a points fired CDI which will improve your ignition system, but keep the 3 degree retard
intact when using your older single vacuum distributor.
Though the points are still used - they now carry a few milliamps trigger current, rather than several amps direct to the coil. This results in
little or no burning of the points so they last much longer (the rubbing block will wear down before you have to throw the points away, and you get
easier starting and may see a slight improvement in your fuel consumption (but don't expect miracles.) You still need to check the timing
occasionally as it changes as the rubbing block wears, but maintenance is much reduced.
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Grey 57
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| posted on September 3rd, 2002 at 09:02 PM |
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aussiebug
Hi Bob
Thanks for the info on the Compufire.
Didn't know about the No3 cylinder thing. I am using with internal cooler and 009 dizzy. Have set the timing at idle at 7.5 deg BTC (1600 SP) .
Will slightly retarding ignition get around the No 3 heating / pinging problem? Got to say that since fitting the unit I have not had any heating or
pinging probs.
Cheers
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70AutoStik
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| posted on September 3rd, 2002 at 09:21 PM |
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Not hearing the ping doesn't mean there isn't a problem; the actual reason given by VW was overheating of the number three head (and dropped
valves.) I've run 009s with early fan houses and didn't see the problem (mind you, I never put that many miles on them.) My old VW
mechanic said it would cause almost instant (10,00km or so) failure in a kombi engine.
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aussiebug
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| posted on September 4th, 2002 at 01:58 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Grey 57
Hi Bob
Thanks for the info on the Compufire.
Didn't know about the No3 cylinder thing. I am using with internal cooler and 009 dizzy. Have set the timing at idle at 7.5 deg BTC (1600 SP) .
Will slightly retarding ignition get around the No 3 heating / pinging problem? Got to say that since fitting the unit I have not had any heating or
pinging probs.
Cheers
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I'm Rob rather than Bob please :-)
The 009 should always be set at between 28 and 32 degrees at 3000+ rpm, and let the idle fall where it may, because they vary (cheap build) and max
advance is more important then idle advance.
Use as much of the 28-32 as you can without the engine detonating. If it still detonates at 28 degrees, don't go below that (or the engine is
seriously under-advanced at high rpm) - use a higher octane fuel instead.
Using MORE of the 28-32 helps get the 009 up closer to the vacuum distributors (which can provide ove 40 degrees in certain engine conditions), and
helps reduce and 009 flats spots just a little. Using a 009 results in ALL cylinders having less total advance than any vacuum distributor can
provide, so any overheating NO3 problem is likely to be absent anyay.
For info, the vacuum distributors provide better economy and smoother acceleration because they can throttle-sense, meaning they can add or remove
advance accoding to the throttle position plus speed (airflow through the carby). The 009 can only rpm-sense, so has to be limited to "worst
case" of between 28 and 32 degrees. This is what sometimes causes the 009-flat-spot, and also results in lower fuel economy.
Once you've found a max setting that works well, you can measure the idle setting if you want and use THAT setting for THAT 009 on THAT engine -
it will probably be somewhere between about 5 and 10BTDC.
This method applies to ALL VW engine using the 009, 1200, 1300, 1500, 1600 - it doesn't matter.
Older 009s have the 3 degree retard, but those sold these days have even firing (009s were sold well before 1971, when all VW engines had the retarded
No3).
How do you know if you have the No3 retard or not? Easy. check the timing for No1 cylinder with a timing light, then switch the sensor lead to No3
plug lead. If the timing mark stays in the same position, it's an even firing distributor. If the timing mark jumps a few mm to the left -
it's a "retard" distributor.
Rob
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Baja Wes
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| posted on September 4th, 2002 at 02:15 PM |
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Rob, good advise. I usually set my engine around 28-32 deg.
I have ran electronic points for years and the only time I had a prob was when I accidently tried to run them on a GT40R instead of a GT40. The GT40R
is the wrong resistance/impedance and causing the electronic points to overheat and the engine to stop. It restarts in a few seconds and then
overheats again shortly after.
Ben, that's a good price for electronic points. Does that brand have any sort of warrranty?
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Grey 57
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| posted on September 4th, 2002 at 07:34 PM |
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Thanks Rob, sorry about the typo on your name mate. All thumbs when it comes to typing.
I'll check my 009 like you've suggested to see if it has retard on 3. I have been using PULP in it but it seems to run poorly compared to
Lead replacement petrol. Must be the octane rating.
If you have no degree pulley how do you recomend setting advance at 28 to 30 deg. Is there a measurement you can use from the existing timing
marks?
Dean
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 Bizarre
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| posted on September 4th, 2002 at 07:44 PM |
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If you have a 7.5 degree mark just measute it off 3 more times, mark it and you have 30 degrees
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Grey 57
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| posted on September 4th, 2002 at 07:53 PM |
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Thanks Blue, now why didn't I think of that!!!:thumb:thumb
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70AutoStik
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| posted on September 4th, 2002 at 08:48 PM |
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Aussie, the vacuum advance only provides extra advance when it senses the cylinders are only being partially filled - therefore the effective
compression ratio (pressure at TDC) is less. This advanced timing brings the peak flame rate back to where it is most useful. The 009 doesn't
have this and does produce more advance in about the 2000-3000rpm range at full throttle than a stock dizzy.
BTW, where does Ben Durie hail from - or aren't we allowed to ask that?
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aussiebug
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| posted on September 5th, 2002 at 02:53 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Grey 57
Thanks Rob, sorry about the typo on your name mate. All thumbs when it comes to typing.
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No problem - I've got 10 thumbs too :-)
| Quote: |
I'll check my 009 like you've suggested to see if it has retard on 3. I have been using PULP in it but it seems to run poorly compared to
Lead replacement petrol. Must be the octane rating.
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PULP and LRP have the same octane ratinig - 95 (or 96 just for Shell petrol). For VWs with normal compression ratios (up to 7.5:1) you should be able
to use normal unleaded (91 octane) and have no detonation. LRP is more likely to cause rough running and plug fouling that either unleaded or pulp.
VW engines do NOT need leaded fuel or LRP - read this article for more info if you are interested.
http://www.geocities.com/aussiebug1970/octane1.html
| Quote: |
If you have no degree pulley how do you recomend setting advance at 28 to 30 deg. Is there a measurement you can use from the existing timing
marks?
Dean
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If you know which mark is TDC, then make a new mark 46.5mm around the rim to the right of TDC. That mark is 30 degrees BTDC and you can work 3mm
either side of that for 28-32.
Make sure you have TDC right though - there are at lease 4 common VW pulleys -
3-notch which is TDC, 7.5 and 10BTDC;
2notch (close together) which is 7.5 and 10BTDC;
dimple-and-notch...the dimple (on the other rim) is TDC and the notch is 7.5;
and the single notch (used more in the USA) which is 5ATDC for the double vacuum distributors.
Regards
Rob
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aussiebug
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| posted on September 5th, 2002 at 03:47 PM |
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I'm not quite sure what your point is 70Autostick,
At CRUISING speeds between 2000 and 3000, the vacuum distributors (both vacuum only and SVDA) make over 40 degrees advance (good for economy), and
this backs off if you floor it from that cruise speed, which prevents detonation, and the advance then creeps back in as the rpm catches up with the
new throttle position (increasing airflow through the carby). The 009 can't adjust itself to throttle position so has to be set for "worst
case" which is the high-throttle, lowish rpm position, and that's 28-32 degrees.
As well as that, the vacuum distributors give you a shot of advance when accelerating from idle, for smooth acceleration (they sense the increase in
airflow through the carby). The 009 can't do that as it only STARTS to advance from about 1200rpm, so some cars (especially those with the more
senstivie 34PICT/3 carby) suffer from the "009 flat spot".
I don't quite understand what you say about "flame rate" either. About the only thing which affects the flame speed inside the
cylinders is the amount of burnt gases left over from the previous firing stroke. There is always some, since there is a head space above the piston
which is not swept clean, but when the engine it throttled (partly closed throttle), there is a larger PROPORTION of burnt gases compared to the now
restricted amount of fresh stuff which has been allowed in to the cylinder. This increased proportion of burned gases does slow the flame speed, and
THAT'S why the vacuum distributors can provide over 40 degrees advance - so the point where all the fuel mixture is burned coincides with the
piston starting back down. When the throttle is wide open, the mixture has much less old burnt stuff as a proportion of the whole, so the flame speed
increases and so LESS advance is needed (the vacuum distributor does that) until the increasing rpm requires an earlier spark to match the burning of
the mixture with the commencement of the down strok of the piston.
I don't understand the comment re Ben Durie - where did that Q originate from?
Regards
Rob
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 70AutoStik
Aussie, the vacuum advance only provides extra advance when it senses the cylinders are only being partially filled - therefore the effective
compression ratio (pressure at TDC) is less. This advanced timing brings the peak flame rate back to where it is most useful. The 009 doesn't
have this and does produce more advance in about the 2000-3000rpm range at full throttle than a stock dizzy.
BTW, where does Ben Durie hail from - or aren't we allowed to ask that?
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70AutoStik
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| posted on September 5th, 2002 at 10:39 PM |
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Combustion in an engine is not correctly described as an explosion, rather a rapid burn of the mixture. The spark starts the flame, which then
spreads through the available volume. A higher pressure will speed the rate at shich the mixture burns, ignition advance is ideally provided to cause
the point where significant increase of pressure occurs at the optimum point, ie where it will cause maximum transfer of this pressure to rotation of
the crank (at TDC, of course, the main thrust will be straight down into the main journal.) I realise I'm simplifying things a bit, but I hope
this gives you the idea.
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Grey 57
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| posted on September 5th, 2002 at 10:45 PM |
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From all of this, it sounds like the 009 dizzy's are not all there cracked up to be. What is the best vac advance dizzy to use on a 1600, in a
beetle, to get good power, no flat spot, with a standard carb?
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Bizarre
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| posted on September 6th, 2002 at 08:24 AM |
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A SVDA. Single Vacuum Dual Advance. It is a VW dizzy that had bot vacuum and mechanical advancement. States got them in about 73 os something. Not
sure if / when we got them.
Pretty sure we just get the single vacuum
http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/kwsearch.php
Futue te ipsum!!!
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aussiebug
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| posted on September 6th, 2002 at 03:13 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Ben Durie
hi,
hey rob that 46.? mm can not be correct for ther are several different diameter pulleys as O.E.
regards
Ben
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Eh - not that I've ever seen, and I've been driving VWs since 1967. All beetle pulleys (and that includes type1 engines in Bus/Kombis) are
the same.
If they weren't youd have all different sizes for fan belts, and as it happens there are only 2 sizes 905 x 9.5 (you can just get away with a 900
x 9.5 but you have to put most of the shims in between the gen pulley halves); and the 912 x 11.3mm belt used on VWs with alternators. The belt is
wider so it's stronger (bigger fan plus more more electical power running off it), and so because it's wider it rides higher in the pulley
groove, so the belt needs to be longer (912mm).
46.5mm to the right of TDC should work fine for either generator or alternator equiped cars.
Regards
Rob
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aussiebug
A.k.a.: Rob Boardman
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| posted on September 6th, 2002 at 03:32 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Grey 57
From all of this, it sounds like the 009 dizzy's are not all there cracked up to be. What is the best vac advance dizzy to use on a 1600, in a
beetle, to get good power, no flat spot, with a standard carb?
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You're right Grey - the 009 is a 'one size fits all" distributor so it is NOT ideal for any particular application. The original
centrifugal carby was designed for the very early bus engines - 1200 engine pushing a very heavy body, so the 009 style worked OK since the engine was
ALWAYS working hard.
They work well for engines working at constant speed (generators, pumps), and at high speed high throttle (racing VW engines and the previously
mentioned early 1200 buses) but you can NOT beat a vacuum distributor for smooth acceleration and economy, because the varying amount of advance
provided by the vacuum distributor much more closely matches the ideal ignition point for varying rpm and load conditions we all drive in.
The 009 is at best a compromise. Add to that their cheap build (so they vary a lot) and you have a distributor which is NOT the best one. But of
course they ARE cheap in comparison to vacuum units, and they can be made to work REASONABLY well, so have become very popular.
The 74+ beetles came with an SVDA - single vacuum double advance - that's like a high quality 009 (provides up to about 32 degree advance) with
added vacuum (which gives about 8 degree advance), for a grand total of around 40 degrees. You get the stability of the rpm related advance, together
with the throttle sensing of the vacuum advance for the best of both worlds.
As one other poster said - if you can't find them elsewhere John at http://www.aircooled.net sells them - you tell him what your set-up is (engine size, carburettor and such and he sets the
vacuum unit to suit.
You should remember though that 009s sold today, and all new SVDAs are even firing distributors, so if you have an in-shroud cooler you SHOULD (if you
can) use a vacuum-only distributor with the retarded No3. You CAN use an even firing distributor if you have to, but then as a precaution I would be
using a higher octane fuel to stop any possibility of detonation on No3, AND running the carby one jet size larger to try and cool the No3 cylinder
just a little more - a dropped valve is not a pretty sight.
Regards
Rob
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Baja Wes
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| posted on September 6th, 2002 at 08:43 PM |
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I can also verify there are different diameter crank pulleys.
The vacuum advance will help increase fuel economy slightly over the 009, but I still prefer the 009. With the vac and the 009 set to the same total
advance the vac distributor caused more knocking problems on my old 1835.
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aussiebug
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| posted on September 10th, 2002 at 12:20 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
I can also verify there are different diameter crank pulleys.
The vacuum advance will help increase fuel economy slightly over the 009, but I still prefer the 009. With the vac and the 009 set to the same total
advance the vac distributor caused more knocking problems on my old 1835.
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Thanks for the info on pulleys guys - I'll have to take a tape measure to the next VW meeting I go to :-)
Wes - are you saying that you've set a 009 to 40 degrees advance??? (even that is a little conservative for the vacuum distributors - some of
them seem to run a little over 40 in my experience).
That would mean the 009 was idling at about 16 degrees!
And with 40 degrees at 2500-2600rpm (where it's "all in" with the 009), it would be way to advanced when the throttle is floored - I
can't believe you wouldn't get a heap of pinging with that set-up.
Regards
Rob
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