| [ Total Views: 1401 | Total Replies: 17 | Thread Id: 48324 ] |
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 jc_geddes
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| posted on January 25th, 2006 at 08:23 AM |
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fuel tank modifications
Hi guys,
I am fitting a 2.2 subaru engine into my '73 bay.
Do I need to modify the fuel tank for the fuel injection at all?
Cheers in advance
John
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neggy17
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| posted on January 25th, 2006 at 08:42 AM |
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Hi, Im doing the same conversion to a beetle. I dont know what a bus tank is like but you need an 8mm return in the top of the tank and i think at
least an 8mm feed. Im just about to do mine and i was planning on drilling a hole and using some kind of fitting like a bulkhead fitting and fastening
it in by taking the sender unit out and getting my hand in there.
Hope this helps as i am a novice to.
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56astro
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| posted on January 25th, 2006 at 08:44 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1stcarbug
DONT cut or weld a fuel tank! even if your sure its totally bone dry, otherwise, KABOOM will follow, ...
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Not true.
Just rinse it out and you'll be fine. For an explosion to occur you need the fuel vapour to be within a pretty small range of concentration (can't
remember exactly what the range is though).
All the "KABOOM" stories involve past recipients of the "Darwin Award".
As for the actual modifications, check out Wes' site, and also the Fuel Injection forum at http://www.shoptalkforums.com
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
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jc_geddes
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| posted on January 25th, 2006 at 08:49 AM |
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The tank has been dry for about 3 years now so no residue will be present.
I am aware that I need to fit the return line, I was just going to match the size pipe to the subaru return line ( not measured it yet)
I supose I am wondering if I need to fit some form of swirl pot either internal or external.
I will check WES web site.
Cheers
John
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blutopless2
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| posted on January 25th, 2006 at 09:04 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1stcarbug
DONT cut or weld a fuel tank! even if your sure its totally bone dry, otherwise, KABOOM will follow, ...
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Not true.
Just rinse it out and you'll be fine.
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was going to say the same thing... i had my tank modified to fit a sender unit and all i did was empty it of fuel, filled it with water (wanted to
check the capacity too) and drained a few times... left it to dry out and then sent it off to have the mods done. if you leave fuel in it then it
needs to be full and no air space.
see.... air and water do mix 
1974 1300
1997 MK3 Golf GL
2003 NB Cabrio
2012 Golf VI GTI
2014 Audi A4 Quattro |
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71EJVan
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| posted on January 25th, 2006 at 11:28 AM |
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Here is an excerpt from the Surf and Swoosh project that I'm doing.
71BayEJ20T
Changed the bottom fuel line fitting from a 1/4 to a 5/16 by cutting the old one out and silver soldering a threaded base (that had the thread turned
off in a lathe) in with the new fitting. Could change this easily for a 3/8 fitting at a latter date if I need to. Also added a fuel return and
another vent for the tank using the same fittings. Fittings cost $20 from Pirtek.
Regards
Brendan
A VW for everyone!!
1972 1302 German Look
1971 Bay Panel with Subaru EJ20T
1970 Type 3 squareback in progress
1971 Type 3 notchback in progress
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pete wood
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| posted on January 25th, 2006 at 01:39 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1stcarbug
sorry astro, just relaying what ive been told by afew people, havent done this myself tho cheers for the correction aswell, dont think id be game enough to cut/weld a fuel tank myself still
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No offence, but unless you know what you are talking about from first hand experience, probably better not saying anything at all. The world is
already full of enough google mechanics. I welded my tank after rinsing and had no issues.
John,
Whatever fittings you use (and 71Ej's look good), you need a supply outlet, a return line and a fuel vapour line for the Subaru. I've got an
external pot as well. It lives at the back of the car next to the torsion tube. If you can find a TLE fuel injection tank, you'll probably be set as
they have an antisurge bowl inside them, probably rare these days though.
BTW, if you do major mods to the tank, POR15 make a kit to line the tank and stop pinhole leeks and porous bits. About $45 but easy to do and has been
great for me.
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Jeza
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| posted on January 25th, 2006 at 05:12 PM |
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I took my tank to a radiator place and they brazed / soldered an 8mm diameter fuel line pipe to the bottom. I asked that they poked it in a wee way
to prevent crud sitting on the tank bottom from being sucked in. And I flared the end a little to prevent the rubber line from slipping off.
Cost very little, and they had the experience to deal with the tank, and the parts were left overs from when I ran new lines.
Cheers
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
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shaihulud
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| posted on January 25th, 2006 at 11:06 PM |
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I need to get some extra pipes welded to my tank for an EJ20. I have fitted a 7/16th supply pipe and a 3/8th return pipe to the pan, so they will be
the sizes of the pipes.
Is it OK to put the fuel return into the top of the tank where it will cause frothing and splashing of the fuel, or is it best to fit it to the
bottom where the fuel will not froth. Is it better to fit the return pipe to the top but to have the pipe feed down to the bottom of the tank? Does it
matter?
I intend to use the existing small vent pipe for the vapour system to the charcoal canister. Is that OK?
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jc_geddes
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| posted on January 26th, 2006 at 07:36 AM |
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Thanks for the replays,
I think I am going to open the original fixing out to 8mm, possibly by brazing in a new fixing. I will also fbraze ina a return line to the bottom of
the tank, the fixing will be L shaped so the fuel being returned is feed back into the tank will be feed back in to volume, rather than dropiing the
fuel down or possibly pushing it up into the air to fall down.
I will also have a gravity feed swirl pot which will feed the high pressure pump.
Does this sound like an okay solution?
I am also not running the standard ecu so wI am not going to run with a charcole canister.
Do you guys have to run a canister? One of the things I have done in the past is to measure the resistance of the purge valve and fit a resister in
the electrical plug, then remove the canister. The need for the resister is to fool the ecu into thinking that the purge valve is still conected so
it won't log an error code or put the engine light on.
Cheers
John
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VWCOOL
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| posted on January 26th, 2006 at 12:02 PM |
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If it is for street use, the charcoal canister and std management system are mandatory for rego. Some less-than-scrupulous engineers still 'pass'
cars without them. That's great until you get a roadside defect notice...
Pay your debts, CxxT
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 helbus
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| posted on January 26th, 2006 at 12:59 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1stcarbug
DONT cut or weld a fuel tank! even if your sure its totally bone dry, otherwise, KABOOM will follow, uless u like that kinda thing, not sure if u need
to do anything tho,
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Not sure or haven't done it can mislead or lead people to misconstue the facts. Definitley better to watch than say if you don't know.
Say out loud what you have written and think how it would sound to the people reading it, THEN click on the 'post reply' button if it is
reasonable.
Anyway. I have factual answers. You do not have to have a swirl pot as the pump will be lower than the tank. Our tank had a screw on fitting, so I got
a larger 10mm one for the tank outlet, so it matched the inlet of the fuel pump.
The return I plumbed into one of the two tank breathers. Pretty simple and works fine. It is not imperative to have two tank breathers unless you plan
on having the bus parked on a pretty major angle.
The remaining breather is easily plumbed into the charcoal cannister.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=38417&page=1
click on the link for more info.
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ricola
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| posted on January 26th, 2006 at 05:56 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Helbus
Anyway. I have factual answers. You do not have to have a swirl pot as the pump will be lower than the tank.
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Helbus, the swirl pot is there to make sure the pump has a constant supply of fuel when the fuel is sloshing around an unbaffled tank, nothing to do
with pump height...
Rich
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helbus
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| posted on January 26th, 2006 at 09:31 PM |
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Why wouldnt it have a constant supply of fuel from the bottom of a baffled tank? Our tank is baffled, so there is no problem.
I've done quite a number of EFI conversions now on several different types of cars, and only put a swirl pot in one where the pump was higher than
half way level on the tank. That of course required a pre pump and a swirl pot.
If it lower than the tank it is always preprimed, that is where the height can make a difference.
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RENNWAGEN
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| posted on January 26th, 2006 at 10:25 PM |
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Your almost on empty,your going flat out through a long sweeping turn on the red line and at maximum boost, all the fuel left in your tank runs to one
side you run lean. This is when you need a swirl pot. Some kombi tanks were baffled ( fuel injected ) the early ones werent I'm not sure about
beetles but if this is how you drive then you need a baffled tank or a swirl pot. Or better still never let your tank get under a quater full.
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1303Steve
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| posted on January 26th, 2006 at 10:27 PM |
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Hi
If you can find a good bay EFI tank, that would be the best way to go.
I know this question is about a bay tank, but on a Beetle tank I find its easiets to weld some return nipples into the filler neck which is removable
so its easy to make safe for welding.
The external swirl pot (if you cant get an EFI tank which has a swirl pot in it) is a god idea for a few reasons, if you park on a slope with a low
fuel level your car wont start if your drawing straight from the tank, EFI pumps hate running out of fuel when the tank is low and your cornering
hard, a sudden lean condition from lack of fuel could result in engine damage.
Factory EFI Commondores often will not start if parked on a slope with a low tank level.
Steve
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helbus
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| posted on January 26th, 2006 at 10:42 PM |
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The thing is here we are talking about a bay bus with a 2.2 N/A engine. Not a turboed hard cornering vehicle by any means. I agree totally that any
high performance vehicle would definitley need a swirlpot. In a bay bus with a stock EJ22, it would just not be necessary. Although you can put one on
if you wish.
Our bay bus has its fuel pickup coming out of the bottom of the tank which is better in a non swirlpot environment than a tank that has a top pickup,
which will not reach the bottom of the tank. Then if we keep a bit of fuel in the tank that would never be a problem. Ours is a baffled tank, so that
is also an advantage.
Someone will be able to give a definative answer on which tanks are not baffled and which ones are and how to identify them.
Yes you can run out of fuel and still have what is in the swirl pot, but it is likely you will empty that too, then you are in the same situation as
when you had no swirl pot.
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GeorgeL
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| posted on February 5th, 2006 at 07:06 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ricola
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Helbus
Anyway. I have factual answers. You do not have to have a swirl pot as the pump will be lower than the tank.
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Helbus, the swirl pot is there to make sure the pump has a constant supply of fuel when the fuel is sloshing around an unbaffled tank, nothing to do
with pump height...
Rich
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Here's a nice pot design:
http://www.sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm
Regarding welding of gas tanks, I talked to a fireman about the issue. He said that it can be done safely _if_ the tank is filled with an inert gas
like argon or nitrogen.
The way he explained it is that, even if the tank has been aired out for a long period of time, there might be residue (commonly called "gum")
present in the tank. This residue gets heated by the welding, vaporizes, and mixes with the air in the tank. If chance makes the mixture
stochiometric at the same time as the tank is filled with vapor/air mixure, you have a bomb.
Some folks say "Sure you can weld on a tank, I did it and nothing happened." That is one data point. A welder might get away this once or a
hundred times, but it is the one poor sod who gets unlucky who suffers from that bad advice. Better to be safe.
On a tank with a removable outlet, you might even make a 2-tube outlet with a return tube that extends well into the tank.
George
[ Edited on Feb 04, 2006 by GeorgeL ]
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