| [ Total Views: 3415 | Total Replies: 27 | Thread Id: 71943 ] |
|
|
 Hutcho
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 528
Threads: 69
Registered: August 30th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Hyde
|
| posted on September 25th, 2008 at 08:19 PM |
|
|
EJ20 not starting....WHY!!! EDIT: ITS ALIVE!!!! MWAHHH HAA HAA!
Hey guys,
Does anyone have any hints for me to start the 06 EJ20 NA motor with Factory ECU?
- I definately have fuel.
- All power is hooked up as per the schematics I have.
- Theres power to the injectors but testing for a "pulse", the ecu doesnt switch them on/off.
- The only things that arent hooked up are "coolant temp switch", Front/Rear oxy sensors, VSS.
- I would have thought the ECU wouldntneed these things to run but its starting to slow me down and I really just want it to run....
Steve
|
|
|
Brad
Wolfsburg Elder
Posts: 3764
Threads: 332
Registered: August 24th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: SE QLD, Mt Nebo
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Manx Buggy Building
|
| posted on September 25th, 2008 at 08:22 PM |
|
|
06 EJ 20 NA .. do you still have the factory key / ignition in the loom ? If not have you chipped teh ECU ?
Does it turn over ?
Does it fire ?
Have you had the cam / timing belt off ?
Is timing correct ?
Is teh AFM hooked up ?
Does it have spark ?
You really need to give more info
|
|
|
Hutcho
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 528
Threads: 69
Registered: August 30th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Hyde
|
| posted on September 25th, 2008 at 10:10 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Buggy Brad
06 EJ 20 NA .. do you still have the factory key / ignition in the loom ? If not have you chipped teh ECU ?
Does it turn over ?
Does it fire ?
Have you had the cam / timing belt off ?
Is timing correct ?
Is teh AFM hooked up ?
Does it have spark ?
You really need to give more info
|
Thanks mate,
Yes, using the factory key/ignition altough Id like to know exactly how these enable/disable the system. No chipped ECU.
Yes, it turns over/cranks.
No, it doesnt fire. It seems the ecu isnt firing the injectors ie Im not getting an injector pulse.
The motor is as new. Nothing has been taken off the motor including covers, belts or sensors.
Timing is fine.
Ignitor has power but Ill check for spark tomorrow. It hard to do this as I need a 2 meter arm!
Thanks again.
|
|
|
Brad
Wolfsburg Elder
Posts: 3764
Threads: 332
Registered: August 24th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: SE QLD, Mt Nebo
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Manx Buggy Building
|
| posted on September 25th, 2008 at 10:25 PM |
|
|
Key is coded and will not allow power to ECU is not in ignition, high end anti theft crap
check the timing belt hasn't skipped, not uncommon in subaru's if people transport them in gear without handbrake on or it has been in accident.
What loom mods did you do ?
If none of the above them I would suggest you may have missed a power feed wire. Have you got power to your ignitor ? You say you have power to your
injectors but that is not good unless you have earth as they should be earth pulse switched. Check all your earths.
Have you earthed your engine well ? Have you got power to the TPS and ICV ?
There are so many variables, what schematic did you use and did it match either your ECU code or your pin outs ?
Was it an Auto ? did you fix the auto switch wire for netral which feeds the ECU ?
Have you connected the start signal wire ?
|
|
|
rocknrob
A.k.a.: Rob
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 844
Threads: 90
Registered: December 18th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Black
Mood: mystic
|
| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 07:54 AM |
|
|
Ha! Brad is the man when it comes to Subaru...I recently did a wiring tidy up and changed earth position...it ran like crap so immediately changed it back...sweet as
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 09:03 AM |
|
|
ditto on that. earth is very important.
also check your crank angle sensor. I had dramas with mine, stupid thing would run and once it was hot, if I switched it off it would take 15 minutes
before it would run again. finally it died altogether.
I also think it's worth having a good look at the belt.
|
|
|
Hutcho
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 528
Threads: 69
Registered: August 30th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Hyde
|
| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 09:16 AM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Buggy Brad
Key is coded and will not allow power to ECU is not in ignition, high end anti theft crap
check the timing belt hasn't skipped, not uncommon in subaru's if people transport them in gear without handbrake on or it has been in accident.
What loom mods did you do ?
If none of the above them I would suggest you may have missed a power feed wire. Have you got power to your ignitor ? You say you have power to your
injectors but that is not good unless you have earth as they should be earth pulse switched. Check all your earths.
Have you earthed your engine well ? Have you got power to the TPS and ICV ?
There are so many variables, what schematic did you use and did it match either your ECU code or your pin outs ?
Was it an Auto ? did you fix the auto switch wire for netral which feeds the ECU ?
Have you connected the start signal wire ?
|
Awsome, thanks Brad. You do know what your talking about! Im glad I could bounce this problem out there and get some constructive, useful pointers.
OK, Ill answer your point by point so bare with me.
Re the transponder key, I understand that it doesnt allow power to the ecu but how? When I turn the key to "IGN" and "Start", the motor cranks and
I get 12v throught the system, I assume thats all that matters and that the Ignition Key Switch side of the system is doing its job.
Im assuming the belt hasnt slipped but how would I know? Are there marks I should check? I understand what your saying how this could happen.
After "buying" and downloading about a dozen manuals, I eventually got the right one for this Aussie release EJ20 SOHC NA motor. I sourced it from a
Subaru Tech guy although its not everything, I did get the motor wiring schematics and ecu pinout. Its definately the right one. As you know,
everthing that happens in the car goes back to the ecu ie rear defrost, AC signals, front wipers, security etc. I went through each one and determined
weather the ecu would need that ground or 12v to run.
Yes, I have power to the ignitor.
Re earthing, that MAY be an issue. I havent run a main earth strap to the motor but the original VW strap is in place from body to box. I think Ill
run one just incase.
Yeah, I understand there are sooo many variables. I was a little hesitant putting this up but I thought why not....maybe someone like you would hit on
something I havent thought of.
Yes, the engine was an Auto and yes, Ive hooked the Neutral switch wire to the ecu, also hooked the start sig wire.
Ive sent you a PM, Brad.
Thanks,
Steve
|
|
|
Baja Wes
Bishop of Volkswagenism
V6 Baja Pioneer
Posts: 3119
Threads: 94
Registered: August 26th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Content
|
| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 10:50 AM |
|
|
Have you tried kicking and swearing?
Have you ever had the motor running? If not it could be anything.
I remember someone powder coated their alternator stand / brackets and then found out the alternator wouldn't work (because the powder coating
stopped it from earthing to the motor). It's usually the silly things that get you.
|
|
|
ian.mezz
Wolfsburg Elder
I never said, I could write or spell
Posts: 3913
Threads: 280
Registered: September 11th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Newcastle
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Happy
|
| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 01:03 PM |
|
|
do a quick check
and make sure its not something silly like fuelled up or dirty spark plugs
|
|
|
Hutcho
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 528
Threads: 69
Registered: August 30th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Hyde
|
| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 02:33 PM |
|
|
Thanks, guys.
Ive tried swearing and bitch slapping it to no avail 
I just went and picked the brains out of the local Auto Spark who advised me to get an Injector Checker. Theyre just a diode so i went and picked one
up from Jaycar for 90c! Just tested for an injector pulse and it seems Im not getting one. Not sure what to do now. There is a wire to the ecu which
is the "Immobilisor Input/Output" (B135 T17/18). I havent wired it to either ground nor 12v yet as Im not sure what it does! When I switch to IGN it
puts out 12v so Im afraid to hook it up to either ground or 12v as I may blow something...
Oh well, more butting my herad against the wall.
Getting fuel on return....
Thanks again, guys.
Steve
|
|
|
Hutcho
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 528
Threads: 69
Registered: August 30th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Hyde
|
| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 03:48 PM |
|
|
Does anyone have a schematic for the "Immobiliser: for an 06 NA Impreza????
Cheers,
Steve
|
|
|
Brad
Wolfsburg Elder
Posts: 3764
Threads: 332
Registered: August 24th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: SE QLD, Mt Nebo
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Manx Buggy Building
|
| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 07:58 PM |
|
|
mm aren't Subies greta fun to play with.. anything with that later ECU's are a PITA as they will not run unless they are happy with the world as
they know it.
So many questions so little time.
Immoboliser - I hate to say it but I have had both earth and power depending on the engine. It usually takes an earth input but if you have 12V on it
I would be checking to make sure it is just not a signal 12V giving feed back. If you don;t have a really cool meter then just get a 1amp fuse and put
the wire to it then to earth. If it blows you know it don;t want earth. The board usually handle at least 3 amps in the components so the fuse will go
first.
If you are not getting a pulse at your injectors then that will be because the ECU don't want the engine to start. Most of the sensors will make it
run like crap but they will not stop it firing as they realise that until it is running the signal they get will not be real accurate.
There are marks on the cam pulleys and crank you can line up to check the timing. I have seen them running fine and then stop and not start again
because the belt has been a tooth out.
Yep that alternator crap was me, so was putting the cam belt on 180 degrees out, staring at if for hours, pulling every sensor out, testing it,
stripping the loom, swearing at it a lot and when I was just about to pull the engine out and burn it someone with a little less temper had a look and
laughed real loud when the belt was out ... mm now from memory I didn't fit the belt but I had checked it many times... just looked at the marks
without checking the marks where correct.
Anyway enough of my stupid acts, 47 looms down and never made the same mistake twice :>
Ok so no injector pulse.... so Ignitor has power, yeah so injectors have power so ignition relaly is turning on and power is passing through.
So if no pulse we have no earth signal to the ignitor then we will have no pulse, if we have no earth signal at the ignitor then changes are the ECU
ain't giving it one. Now that could be bacause we have a bad ECU earth or that the ECU ain't happy with something. So what will in not be happy with
...
Low Volts ... no fire ..... check earth again, check ECU opinouts, check earth again, earth engine direct do not depend on crappy VW earth.
Bad Coil - check resistance of Primary coil around 0.75 ohms +- 10%
Crank Angle Sensor - No signal / wrong signal no fuel, note here is that if the ECU is turning the fuel pump on after the initial 20 - 30 secong prime
ie whilst you are crabking it then it is getting a signla frome crank angle sensor. If there is no signal then the ECU turns the fuel pump off as it
don't want it running with no crank sensor
Dodgy Ignition Relay - if the twin circuit isolated circuit relay is not working properly then the power will not be getting everywhere it need to,
should not effect injector pulse though, usually only ignitor / coil side of the cylse of life
Anyway I could go on for hours here as there are so many variables. As a rule of thumb if it don't have an injector pulse then I would suggest it is
because the ECU don't want it to and would be looking at earths, input signals. power etc. Pat particular attention to the loom mods you would have
done when you modified it to run outside of the Subaru. Have you ever had this engine running ?
I see you are in Sydney, there are a few Subaru Conversion guys down there, maybe one of them can help ??? If you were in Brissy I could help you out
more but I really need to see the car as I reckon it will be something obvious. Not running is usually pretty easy, it is when they run like crap that
it gets to be a PITA.
|
|
|
ratbug
A.k.a.: Andrew Todd
Wolfsburg Wizard
aka toddy101
Posts: 439
Threads: 30
Registered: January 14th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Newcastle
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on September 27th, 2008 at 11:28 AM |
|
|
Have you rigged up the check engine light up and see what codes it is flashing up?
If the ECU isn't triggering the coils or injectors, its usually something major like the CRANK/CAM sensor, as without these, the ECU doesn't know
what angle the crank is at, and so doesn't know what time to fire. The earth from the chassis to gearbox should be fine, but there should also be a
smaller earth to the inlet manifold area.
Also, if your auto sparky has an OBDII diagnostic gizmo, hook this up (assuming the plugs arn't cut off in the wiring loom), should tell you what the
sensors are doing.
|
|
|
JVLRacing
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1100
Threads: 30
Registered: March 6th, 2007
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on September 27th, 2008 at 07:18 PM |
|
|
Are your plugs wet or dry after cranking over?
|
|
|
Hutcho
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 528
Threads: 69
Registered: August 30th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Hyde
|
| posted on September 27th, 2008 at 10:32 PM |
|
|
Thanks guys,
Im pretty sure its what Brad mentioned in the first place...Thanks for your help, mate! Although Im using the factory transponder key/Ignition, I
didnt have the "Immobilisor" box wired in. Stupid me thought I could get around it but I think I now have a much deeper understanding of how the
system works. This Subaru system is a bloody smart little bugger from what I can deduce. Here is how I THINK the OBDII "Immobiliser" system
operates. The correct transponder key goes into the ingnition. There is a "chip/switch" inside the ignition housing which, when it detects the right
key, switches and allows power to the "Immobiliser" box. This box picks up that input from the ignition and also about another 9 wires which the ecu
and motor feed to it depending on the Status of the vehicle. The ECU and this "Immobiliser" box do, what they call in the electronics/electrical
game, some "handshaking". Basically, the ECU and the box both send AND receive signals through two wires and if all the conditions are met,
congratulations! You get to drive your converted VW. If any of the many conditions arent met, go back to the drawing board.
So, yes the later ECU's are a mongrel but once you get your head around them and you understand what needs to be wired, they are pretty impressive in
what they can do.... Im saying this and yet, I still havent started the motor. Im expecting a Service Manual in the mail this week which will let me
know exactly how these are to be wired... I cannot see how anyone could possibly get around the system unless as Brad said have the ecu chipped which
Id be interested in what they do exactly....
Let you know how I go!
Steve
|
|
|
Hutcho
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 528
Threads: 69
Registered: August 30th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Hyde
|
| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 01:25 PM |
|
|
1 step CLOSER!
OK, Ive got the motor to start......for about 2 seconds before stopping. Im getting there!
Steve
|
|
|
rocknrob
A.k.a.: Rob
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 844
Threads: 90
Registered: December 18th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Black
Mood: mystic
|
| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 06:08 PM |
|
|
Yeah i was at that stage...Wheres Brad...there was a yellow wire had to be connected to the starting circuit or something...hooked it
up...broommm....great feeling...where the hell is Brad
|
|
|
ratbug
A.k.a.: Andrew Todd
Wolfsburg Wizard
aka toddy101
Posts: 439
Threads: 30
Registered: January 14th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Newcastle
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 08:29 PM |
|
|
You got all the vacuum hoses connected right? mine will do that if i disconnect them or remove the air flow meter from the intake pipe. can get it to
sorta run if you totally disconnect the air from meter electrically and play with the throttle.
The Red/Yellow wire is hooked to the starter solenoid, but once you got it firing it's out of the picture.
|
|
|
Brad
Wolfsburg Elder
Posts: 3764
Threads: 332
Registered: August 24th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: SE QLD, Mt Nebo
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Manx Buggy Building
|
| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 09:42 PM |
|
|
Brad is here, just watching the learning cycle..
I remember when I thought I could outsmart the Subie ECU and anti theft ignition stuff... I couldn't.
Then I thought there were something like the early ones, they weren't.
Then I started off down another path and once again learnt it is much easier to just leave the ignition switch and antitheft crap in place and hide it
under the seat.
Back to the issue
Ok so it starts, runs a little bit and then stops...
1st thinsg first, have you run the test cycle to make sure the ECU is looking after the fuel pump and thermo fan ? If not do that.
Now we know the ECU is giving power to the fuel pump I would as ratbug suggested look at the AFM. WIthout an AFM the ecu will think there is no air so
why would the engine want any fuel ?? If the ARM is plugged in then test it as per the manual just to make sure voltage is correct and resistance is
what it should be.
Check the ICV (idle control valve) as if it is stuck of full of carbon engine will not like it and after cold start cuts out engine will stop.
Can you start it and then hit full throttle or do anything else to make a difference ? or does it always just fire and then stop ?
Is the ECU shutting it down cause it has no crank angle sensor signal ?
Do you have a laptop hooked up if not can you get one ?
I have an OBDII cable and software I can lend you so you can plug it into Laptop and crank it over. It makes you feel heaps smarter when you can see
all the little values going up and down as you crank. Often doesn't help but onlookers think you are some sort of factory race mechanic :>
|
|
|
ElusiveStranger
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 330
Threads: 30
Registered: May 28th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Kent. England
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on October 3rd, 2008 at 04:30 AM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Hutcho
OK, Ive got the motor to start......for about 2 seconds before stopping. Im getting there!
Steve
|
Kewl, kewl, kewl.
Does it suddenly die?
If so it sounds like big screwdriver, selotape and pipe insulation time time  You'll still have to fettle with it's position in the coil.
Fingers crossed for ya mate.
|
|
|
Hutcho
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 528
Threads: 69
Registered: August 30th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Hyde
|
| posted on October 3rd, 2008 at 01:30 PM |
|
|
Thanks guys, how the HELL do you get the pulley wheel off? To check for timing belt mis alignment. Apparenty to do it properly, I need an "ST" tool.
Obviously I dont have one. I assume you guys use the "Crank removal method"????
|
|
|
Hutcho
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 528
Threads: 69
Registered: August 30th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Hyde
|
| posted on October 3rd, 2008 at 03:10 PM |
|
|
Thanks, once again, guys for all your help and words of support.
The engine is now running! Although it wont idle, I think the fuel pressure isnt there...hmmm. Refer to other post for futher coments.
I think every person in my suburb wants me dead due to me starting and revving the car with no muffler whatsoever. Sounds like a LOUD harley.
Next steps-
-Now that commisioning is over, its time to do a more permanent and pretty wiring job.
-Get an exhaust made up and fitted.
-To a panel shop to fix a couple of little rust issues.
-Interior redone
-Fit the Subaru Keyless entry system
I could just go on but wont!
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on October 3rd, 2008 at 04:43 PM |
|
|
Karn, you gotta take it for a spin up and down the street.
and
WE NEED VIDEO!!!! 
|
|
|
Hutcho
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 528
Threads: 69
Registered: August 30th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Hyde
|
| posted on October 11th, 2008 at 08:26 AM |
|
|
Guys,
Any suggestions? The motor now fires and starts up for a few seconds. Before it dies, I can hit the trottle and it will rev and run but I have to hold
the throttle down a little to keep it going. It seems like a fuel issue. I relocated the HP pump as I had mounted it at the rear of the car and
realised that it wa mounted 200mm higher than the tank at the front so it was trying to suck the fuel up instead of being gravity fed. I relocated it
below the level of the tank so the pump would always have fuel but its still the same!
Now, I still dont have the O2 sensors hooked in and Im wondering if the ECU is feeding the motor too much fuel because of this. Is this possible?
Thanks,
Steve
|
|
|
Baja Wes
Bishop of Volkswagenism
V6 Baja Pioneer
Posts: 3119
Threads: 94
Registered: August 26th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Content
|
| posted on October 11th, 2008 at 08:58 AM |
|
|
The ECU should run fine with no O2 sensors, just a little rich. The HP pump should be as close to whatever tank is feeding it as possible. A long
suction hose will not be good for the HP pump.
How long is the suction hose at the moment?
|
|
|
Hutcho
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 528
Threads: 69
Registered: August 30th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Hyde
|
| posted on October 11th, 2008 at 09:11 AM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
The ECU should run fine with no O2 sensors, just a little rich. The HP pump should be as close to whatever tank is feeding it as possible. A long
suction hose will not be good for the HP pump.
How long is the suction hose at the moment?
|
Thanks Wes,
Yeah, I thought this may be the case. The suction line is pretty long and curly at the mo. I think Ill pay more attention to this. I read elsewhere on
here that someone is running a facet style pump under the tank to feed the HP pump up the back of the car. Its just another $100 I didnt want to
spend. I wonder how the factory Type 3 FI set up was?
Steve
|
|
|
JVLRacing
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1100
Threads: 30
Registered: March 6th, 2007
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on October 11th, 2008 at 01:05 PM |
|
|
you need another pump!
|
|
|
Baja Wes
Bishop of Volkswagenism
V6 Baja Pioneer
Posts: 3119
Threads: 94
Registered: August 26th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Content
|
| posted on October 11th, 2008 at 05:22 PM |
|
|
I use a facet to feed the surge tank, but it doesn't need to match the full flow of the HP pump. Generally LP pumps are much lower flow then HP
pumps, so you can't use one to feed the other.
You need to move the HP pump to under your main tank, as close as possible to it. A long discharge line if fine, a long suction line is bad.
|
|
|
