| [ Total Views: 1071 | Total Replies: 27 | Thread Id: 89488 ] |
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 Aussie Dubbin
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| posted on March 27th, 2011 at 04:35 PM |
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Seems like eveyone is moving the gearbox forward
Hi Guys,
Mainly racing orientated but it appears as if everyone is moving the gearbox forward. How far is everyone doing this?I suppose i am reading alot about
the subaru conversions and while i'm not committing to this just yet, but with my standard type 1 donk should i consider moving itforward? how much
can i do it?
What i am using:
IRS standard gearbox solid mounted with a fabbed HDsolid mount bought from richard at V-Force
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grumble
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| posted on March 27th, 2011 at 04:43 PM |
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As you already use Richards mounting why not talk to him about it,my thoughts are that unless you are full on racing it shouldn't be necessary.VW
spent millions of dollars developing these cars and over the years I haven't found it necessary in a road going bug.Cheers Les
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hellbugged
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| posted on March 27th, 2011 at 05:57 PM |
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WOFTAM
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vlad01
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| posted on March 27th, 2011 at 07:21 PM |
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Don't try to improve on perfection, especially German or Swiss.
You useless bastards will f**k it up lol 
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mactaylor
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| posted on March 27th, 2011 at 07:44 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hellbugged
WOFTAM
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dunno, no idea what that means, i only know what dilligaf means! however any chance to improve weight distribution is worth looking into i moved th
box forward about 50mm with relitive ease.
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Joel
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| posted on March 27th, 2011 at 08:06 PM |
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Waste of f'king time and money, which is exactly what it is.
Flipping the cradle only moves it forward 40mm and that is gonna have absolutely no effect on the handling at all.
The only reason it's done with some Subi conversions is with the quad cam engines it's the only way to get the timing belt covers to fit under the
apron and decklid.
It's not that easy with a VW engine.
The tinware won't line up with the body anymore, the doghouse oil cooler would hit the firewall and the fan intake would be almost against the
firewall too.
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mactaylor
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| posted on March 29th, 2011 at 05:19 AM |
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oh i see i suppose with an a/c motor yhere would be complications but if we are talking about pure race cars i think any advantage is worth exploring.
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 matberry
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| posted on March 29th, 2011 at 07:47 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
Waste of f'king time and money, which is exactly what it is.
Flipping the cradle only moves it forward 40mm and that is gonna have absolutely no effect on the handling at all.
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They are very definitive statements Joel, I'd like to suggest that in your opinion it's a waste of time that gives absolutely no effect on the
handling at all.
IMO the type of vehicle that it may make the difference to is not just a daily driver, but it definately will effect the front to rear weight bias,
and after modifing the firewall a/c motors will fit, esp with a Porsche fan, and it makes carb access heaps better (so I'm told), but we are talking
performance vehicle here, not some......(I'll leave that blank for you to fill in)
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Sides
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| posted on March 29th, 2011 at 08:28 AM |
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Hmm, yeah - I agree with Matt that there will be an effect on front/rear weight distribution, but don't know if it would be noticable or not.
Could only guess at the difficult/costs of doing it... are you going to be doing it yourself ???
One thing I'd say tho is to consider the class regs... for Improved Production it would be a no-no as far as I read the rules:
http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/02_race/d.%203rd%20Category/RA29_Group_3J_Q111.pdf
4.4 Engine mounts:
(i) Engine mounts are free.
(ii) The engine mounting points on the bodyshell may be removed, modified or added to facilitate engine fitment.
There must be no other alterations made to the body to fit a replacement engine except for minor reshaping of
panels, other than the bonnet, for the fitment of engine mounted ancillaries and exhaust.
(iii) Engine mounting brackets bolted or welded to the crossmember may be removed, modified or added to
facilitate the installation of a replacement engine. No other modifications to the crossmember may be made in
order to provide clearance for the replacement engine.
(iv) It is permissible to reverse the orientation of the engine crossmember provided no alteration to the bodywork
or crossmember is necessary
(v) Where a replacement engine from another eligible model is fitted, the crossmember from the block’s donor
vehicle may be used provided that it is a direct
On a Volksy you could argue that the rear trans mount is the engine crossmember, but then you'd have a problem with the front trans mount, ends of
the torsion tubes etc. and so fall foul of the "no alteration to the bodywork" bit
Like has been said many times over... IMHO you need to build the car to suit the class you want to run, and I think moving the trans forward would
lead to... Sports Sedan.
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Joel
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| posted on March 29th, 2011 at 11:17 AM |
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Fair enough for a purely track car if it fits into the regs for that class then go for it, some of those blokes do every tiny little thing to try and
improve handling, but on the other hand also look how many 1000s of bugs have also done well on the track with stock driveline position.
Admittedly I don't have a degree in physics but I can see how moving it forward would improve the weight bias but by only 40mm though?
Not much in the scale of things, and fair bit of work to make it happen with a stock cooling system
The strain on CVs at those kind of angles for track use I wouldn't imagine they would last real long?
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matberry
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| posted on March 29th, 2011 at 02:47 PM |
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Yes, everything helps, and the engine and tranny are an appreciable component to the overall weight of the car, especially a light car.
Aparently the firewall relocate isn't too drastic a job and I believe the stock cooling will then work. As for cv angles, forget that one, there
would be no appreciable change to the running angle, as you said it's only 40mm forward, it's like 40mm of suspension travel or ride height change.
People do it all the time without CV's blowing up all the time. It is only 40mm as any more needs major surgery, but 40mm is relatively easy without
too many mods.
I haven't done one and I'm not convinced to be doing it on the circuit car build I'm doing presently, but I haven't discounted it yet either.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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hellbugged
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| posted on March 29th, 2011 at 05:13 PM |
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40mm
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HappyDaze
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| posted on March 29th, 2011 at 05:31 PM |
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If everyone is moving their gearbox forward, I had better do mine [No.8 Beetle].
Can anyone tell me how all that toe-out would influence the handling?
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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matberry
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| posted on March 29th, 2011 at 08:00 PM |
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Oh Greg we forgot to say that with your old fashioned car you'd have to shorten the sprig plates too which may make the weight bias actually worse
than stock......Doh ...I think I've gone around in a loop.....
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beetleboyjeff
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| posted on March 29th, 2011 at 09:40 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
If everyone is moving their gearbox forward, I had better do mine [No.8 Beetle].
Can anyone tell me how all that toe-out would influence the handling?
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If you lift the inside wheel on a corner, you would have 4 wheel (or 3 wheel anyway) steering - would that be an advantage?
From your ole' mate Jeff
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vlad01
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| posted on March 30th, 2011 at 09:47 AM |
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perhaps if you flipped the engine and tranny around and had the engine where you're back seat used to be and modified box for reverse operation.
ahaha just f**king buy a 914!
71 notchback,
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HappyDaze
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| posted on March 30th, 2011 at 07:03 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
perhaps if you flipped the engine and tranny around and had the engine where you're back seat used to be and modified box for reverse operation.
ahaha just f**king buy a 914!
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Sounds like you have never driven a 914 - they don't handle!
The rear trailing arms flex even more than VW ones, and even with a better F/R weight ratio, the 914 [IMO] is a horrible car to drive fast around
corners.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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vlad01
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| posted on March 30th, 2011 at 09:01 PM |
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what? ahh haha nice one but April 1st in on Friday.
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mactaylor
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| posted on March 30th, 2011 at 09:24 PM |
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40mm roughly 1.5 percent better weight distribution. 800 kg beetle 320 kgs front 480kgs rear, means quite a bit in my book. someone can do the math
but im to "tired" and "emotional"
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matberry
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| posted on March 30th, 2011 at 09:32 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by mactaylor
40mm roughly 1.5 percent better weight distribution. 800 kg beetle 320 kgs front 480kgs rear, means quite a bit in my book. someone can do the math
but im to "tired" and "emotional"
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I don't know if your right Mac, but I always thought it would be a respectible amount as the driveline is a substantial mass to be considered, as I
said before, the lighter the car, the higher percentage of the overall weight is taken by the driveline. Imagine if a light car like Pagey's or
Westi's could go roundy round racing. They only weigh around 500kg.....how much of that is engine, trans and axles !!!
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mactaylor
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| posted on March 31st, 2011 at 05:25 AM |
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corner weights are a good start using greg wards corner weight published on aircooled.net for a BJ IRS beetle with cage and big sway bars and the
like, by my calcs it puts about 7 kgs more on the fronts at 40mm so roughly 330 on the front and 7 less on the rears. its a funny thing talking about
such small gains but a lot of people spend plenty more money chasing horsepower gains thhat might get you from point to point quicker but if you can
brake better turn in better get back on it earlier that makes sense to me. then if you want to spend more and move it 100mm forward the gains become
much more apreciable.
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Joel
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| posted on March 31st, 2011 at 08:12 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Imagine if a light car like Pagey's or Westi's could go roundy round racing. They only weigh around 500kg.....how much of that is engine, trans and
axles !!!
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Better yet 380kg of trike which already have 10x the cornering ability of a car to start with.
Leon's with 240hp would be an absolute hoot out on the track if you had balls of steel.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by mactaylor
if you want to spend more and move it 100mm forward the gains become much more apreciable.
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you would be into Porsche CV territory there with that sort of angle.
The nosecone of Steve Carters tranny is almost nudging his front bumper that's using Porsche CVs so it can be done.
From memory they're good for upto 27degrees??
type1 is only like 18 or somthing ridiculous.
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bajachris88
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| posted on March 31st, 2011 at 08:26 AM |
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formula V setup, like Vlad was saying  
Hmm.. if there was room for an east/west engine setup (like fwd) then it would push both the gearbox and engine forward. Goodbye rear seat... hello
new boot space
(GTI golf engine config cough cough hint hint!)
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| posted on March 31st, 2011 at 08:34 AM |
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Not trying to argue Joel, but forget about CV angles please. Even moving trans forward 100mm won;t really effect the angle in an extreme sense as the
joint wont see more than it does normally except for the fact (which is important for high hp) that they will be seeing the angle all the time. At
neutral suspension ht where the cv's are normally level, the wheel can drop through 4" of suspension travel, if you move the trans forward 100mm
(4") the cv will no longer change angle as the suspension ht changes, it will stay at a relatively constant angle in this case. This, as you can
imagine, is due to the suspension arms scribing an arc down and fwd.
This is an area offroaders play with all the time. With longer arms it is the same effectively as moving the trans fwd, there is a point around 5"
longer arms that they have to start moving the eng/trans back, but that is due to axle plunge with mega suspension travel.
Porsche CV's are happy to 22deg, after that a few mods and a close eye are recommended. IIRC type 2's are 17deg, type 1....who really cares, they
are so small anyway, who'd use them ???? 
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Joel
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| posted on March 31st, 2011 at 08:35 AM |
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All good Matt, not really my area of expertise, I'll leave the tranny where it is 
| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
Hmm.. if there was room for an east/west engine setup (like fwd) then it would push both the gearbox and engine forward. Goodbye rear seat... hello
new boot space
(GTI golf engine config cough cough hint hint!)
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That's been done, Volkodent on GL has a turbo golf drive line in his bug and there is a mean black bug in the UK which has a 5 cylinder Volvo turbo
driveline from a cop car
340hp mid mounted in a bug with 5 speed 
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STIDUB
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| posted on March 31st, 2011 at 08:57 AM |
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^^^ also been done with a camry/MR2 turbo swap- right up your ally chris
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vlad01
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| posted on March 31st, 2011 at 02:26 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
formula V setup, like Vlad was saying
Hmm.. if there was room for an east/west engine setup (like fwd) then it would push both the gearbox and engine forward. Goodbye rear seat... hello
new boot space
(GTI golf engine config cough cough hint hint!)
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550 Spider
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HappyDaze
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| posted on March 31st, 2011 at 03:49 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
550 Spider
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Now you're talking!
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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