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 TCR7
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| posted on December 18th, 2011 at 07:11 PM |
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Preparing your VW for the track?
Hi Guys,
I am still in the planning process of my Sabre rebuild. I've been a keen motorsport competitor for many years, and whilst I don't intend to compete
in the Sabre, it will be setup as an occasional weekend/track car. Unfortunately my VW knowledge is somewhat limited, so I'd like a bit of advice on
what can be done to best prepare the car for the track.
In my case, I have a '71 model Type 3 IRS chassis, but hopefully some of the information will be relevant for anyone looking to set their VW up for
some track duties.
Chassis stiffening
My car already has a steel subframe and half cage so that should be a good start in this department.
Seam welding or stitch welding the pan. Worth doing or over kill?
Any other chassis bracing or modifications worth doing?
Adjustable sway bars, what are the options?
Suspension
What's the best way to lower a car without compromising the steering geometry or putting too much stress on other parts?
What are the best shocks to use, Koni Adjustables, custom shocks or does anyone make a decent adjustable coilover?
Torsion bars, what sizes are recommended?
Wheel alignments
What sort of camber, caster and toe settings seem to work with VWs.
What parts can be fitted to give more adjustability and/or required camber, caster or toe? Adjustable spring plates, caster shims, eccentric
bushes?
How do I dial out excessive camber in the rear end of a lowered VW?
I'm sure I'll think of more but some answers to these questions would be a good start.
Thanks, Paul.
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fullnoise
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| posted on December 19th, 2011 at 11:30 AM |
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I'd replace all the worn components like suspension bushes, swaybar bushes and ball joints.
I'd make sure the suspension is a little lower than standard but most of all I'd try and get the car level left to right and front to rear.
Then I'd get some new konis or bilsteins to suit the suspension travel.
Then I'd get a 4 wheel alignment that's close to factory specs.
Then I'd drive the car and see what it does before investing in sway bars, heavier springs or aggressive suspension settings with bent arms etc.
I'd follow a similar process with the brakes.
The reason I say all this is that I bought all the fancy stuff and most of it didn't suit my driving style or what with I do with the car. In short
start basic and then see what you need to fix in the handling department.
I hope that helps.
esratrams
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TCR7
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| posted on December 19th, 2011 at 12:34 PM |
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There's definitely some merit in your advice.
I guess the main consideration at this point in time is the chassis. Any modification here in terms of stiffening or modification to beams etc is best
done whilst I've got the car stripped down. Really just looking for some pointers from those that have been down this path before as to what they
found worthwhile and what hasn't been in their opinion. Sway bars is something I can look at down the track.
As for suspension, the main consideration is how I get the car lowered without compromising the steering geometry and shock travel too much. Once I
have that figured out I can work on spring rates and shock valving to suit the car and my driving. Same with torsion bars but I'd like to hear what
size the track guys are using.
Again wheel alignment specifics can be sorted out down the track. I would however like to know what parts people are using to give them the
adjustability they need to get the right setup.
As for brakes, I'll definitely be doing some sort of four wheel disc upgrade to match my expected power output of 180-200hp from the engine.
I'm definitely more about spending the money up front and doing it right the first time, than throwing something together and finding I need to spend
more time and money on upgrades later on down the track.
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1303Steve
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| posted on December 19th, 2011 at 01:37 PM |
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Hi
Buy the best tyres you can afford.
Type 3s have nice soft rubber mounted comfortable suspension, there hasn't been the development that has gone into Beetle suspension, strut or beam
apart from the rear end which is the same as Beetle IRS.
If you haven't got them already fit some Type 3 wagon torsion bars front and rear, they are a direct replacement and are little heavier.
Steve
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TCR7
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| posted on December 19th, 2011 at 03:39 PM |
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Thanks for the advice on the torsion bars Steve. it's been so long since i built the car I can't remember whether the donor car was a wagon or
fastback.
I'm not sure on what tyre and rim size I'll end up with yet, but it'll more than likely be either 17" or 18" rims with 265 wide tyres on the rear
and 225 tyres on the front. I have a lot of guard to fill 
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fullnoise
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| posted on December 21st, 2011 at 11:41 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
Buy the best tyres you can afford.
Steve
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Hey, that's my line ; )
Oh, and don't over-tyre it. You need to be able to get the tyre to it's optimum heat if it's an R-spec and you do need a bit of slip to keep the
engine in it's power so you can exit corners quickly. Our cars are comparatively light and low in horsepower compared to what tyres nowadays are
designed for. I use a 195 because I had trouble getting a 205 hot enough.
esratrams
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TCR7
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| posted on December 21st, 2011 at 03:18 PM |
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Yeah fair enough. I guess it'll depend on what rim widths and offsets I end up with.
Anyone have any advice on the best way to lower the car. Is adjusting the torsion bars the only way to really lower them?
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Sides
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| posted on December 21st, 2011 at 03:58 PM |
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Yup - adjusting torsion bars is really the only way to lower them.... it's the VW equivalent to putting in lowered springs.
As to suspension settings, how to get low without bump steer etc. well really a bit hard for us to say... Type3 suspensions and geometry is quite a
bit different to a Beetle's, and having a different (lower/lighter ?) body just makes it even more different. For example with Beetle's it's
normally a good idea to stitch weld the frame horns that holds the transe, but your chassis doesn't even have frame horns!!!
Agree on the tyres comments too... tho 265 and 235 seem WAY wide to me... I've found 205's all round is plenty.
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TCR7
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| posted on December 21st, 2011 at 06:35 PM |
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Thanks Sides.
These Type 3 drop spindles look like they'll give me 46mm drop whilst leaving the torsion bars in their original location, and therefore retaining
the original steering geometry.
Is that right?
Is there any disadvantage to using drop spindles like these:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1060650
Agreed 265 tyres are probably too much and ultimately I'd like to have a maximum of 245 provided I can get the right offset rims. Remember the engine
will have roughly 200hp to start with, possibly more if I end up with an EJ20T.
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Snap Crackle Bang
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| posted on December 21st, 2011 at 08:52 PM |
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The type 3 front end allows you to adjust the ride height by the splines on the ends of the torsion bars. You will want to adjust it from standard at
least enough to compensate for the reduced weight. It won't cost you anything but time. With a bit of luck the steering geometry may be OK.
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1303Steve
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| posted on December 21st, 2011 at 08:57 PM |
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Hi
CT aka Fullnoise may have an opinion on drop spindles that he used on his bug.
Steve
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JVLRacing
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| posted on December 22nd, 2011 at 07:32 AM |
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Corner weight the car.....and tyres, u may have all the good parts but tuning is the method...
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TCR7
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| posted on December 22nd, 2011 at 08:20 AM |
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Thanks guys.
The car has previously been lowered by adjusting the torsion bars, but ideally I'd like to retutn them to their standard loaction, or near abouts,
and lower the car via some drop spindles to avoid changing the steering geometry too much.
JVL, I've already put the car on the corner weighting scales to get a set of baseline figures. I'll do it all again at the end of the project.
In relation to corner weighting though, I've only ever made adjustments on other cars via adjustable coilovers, How do you guys corner weight the VWs
if you don't have coilovers installed? What adjustments are available?
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lou0060
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| posted on December 29th, 2011 at 08:37 PM |
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there's a set of type 3 whitline sway bars on ebay at the moment......
1971 karmann ghia Cabrio - Cruising 
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fullnoise
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| posted on January 18th, 2012 at 12:21 PM |
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I have dropped-spindles. They're great.
The problem with lowering the beam using adjusters is that it changes the angle of the trailing arms. Instead of having them hang down and then going
towards horizontal when the suspension compresses; they start at horizontal and have to go up and forward to compress. That makes the suspension
stiffer and gives a short, sharp and choppy ride. This makes the suspension resist weight transfer to the front and causes under-steer and the tyres
don't work hard enough.
By installing drop spindles and backing off the beam adjusters my suspension softened right up. It started transferring weight properly. The turn-in
was awesome and the front tyres began to show much higher temperatures. I had to remove the big rear springs and big rear swaybar to get the car to
stop over-steering.
I first tried cast dropped spindles but they were too flexible for track work, I'd get toe-out under brakes. I ended up getting some fancy ones from
Custom Bugs and Buses that are really strong, but I don't think Mike was going to make them anymore.
I hear you can get chromoly ones now. Those would probably be the go. I think Rod Penrose had some.
Cheers CT
esratrams
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cnfabo
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| posted on January 18th, 2012 at 07:57 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fullnoise
I have dropped-spindles. They're great.
The problem with lowering the beam using adjusters is that it changes the angle of the trailing arms. Instead of having them hang down and then going
towards horizontal when the suspension compresses; they start at horizontal and have to go up and forward to compress. That makes the suspension
stiffer and gives a short, sharp and choppy ride. This makes the suspension resist weight transfer to the front and causes under-steer and the tyres
don't work hard enough.
By installing drop spindles and backing off the beam adjusters my suspension softened right up. It started transferring weight properly. The turn-in
was awesome and the front tyres began to show much higher temperatures. I had to remove the big rear springs and big rear swaybar to get the car to
stop over-steering.
I first tried cast dropped spindles but they were too flexible for track work, I'd get toe-out under brakes. I ended up getting some fancy ones from
Custom Bugs and Buses that are really strong, but I don't think Mike was going to make them anymore.
I hear you can get chromoly ones now. Those would probably be the go. I think Rod Penrose had some.
Cheers CT
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interesting read ct ill have to try the dropped spindles one day....
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fullnoise
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| posted on January 19th, 2012 at 07:07 AM |
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I can't wait to get back out on the track. I've got a few combinations to try.
ADVAN Neova street / track tyres in a staggered size 175/55 front and 205/45 rear - should increase understeer.
ZF diff - should increase understeer.
Who knows, maybe I'll have to put the big rear springs and/or swaybars back on?
Either way I'm looking forward to seeing how the car handles.
esratrams
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HappyDaze
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| posted on January 19th, 2012 at 09:04 AM |
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For what it's worth, CT, I've found that working on the rear end until you get under-steer, then work on the front end until you get over-steer [andso on] seems to get results.
Cheers, Greg
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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fullnoise
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| posted on January 19th, 2012 at 12:30 PM |
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I never thought of it like that. How simple. Good one Greg.
The car is kind of at that point. Without type 3 springs and the small 18mm (I think) rear bar the car wouldn't turn off the bridge at Oran Park's
GP circuit and it was slow to get to the turn 5 apex at Eastern Creek. I think Wakefield was okay. So I've been running the rear bar for a few years
now. I don't touch the front.
The only thing I can see that it does wrong is lift a front wheel occasionally.
Sorry Paul, I hope I haven't hijacked this post.
esratrams
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fullnoise
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| posted on January 27th, 2012 at 02:37 PM |
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Back to the hijacking: It was a tough day at Wakefield Park yesterday. I wish I had a bigger memory card in the GoPro. It would've caught the
high-speed 360 degree spin I did coming onto the back straight. It's certainly a lot more challenging to drive street tyres at the limits compared
with the semi-slicks I normally use!!!! Normally I can take that corner flat; without lifting.
I'll need some practice with the new set-up. All I could manage was a 1:17.0. 2.4 seconds slower than my best. I reckon I could get down to a 1:16.0
with the ADVAN Neovas.
Unfortunately changing into second for the fish-hook (thanks to the new 3.88 R&P) was a bit hard on the fan belts. I broke two in three runs and
didn't want to risk the third. I tried to find a replacement at Supercheap Auto Goulburn but they didn't have the right size. Bugger.
The first fanbelt took out a filter sock on one of the ida. The second fan belt knocked off one of the springs holding the distributor cap on
necessitating a tow back to the pits.
That's racing though. I'll start with the small pulley next time and have a good stash of fan belts.
esratrams
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mactaylor
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| posted on January 27th, 2012 at 04:40 PM |
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thanx ct did you do some tyre temps with the Neovas? i bought a set and am keen for some feedback. regards.
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fullnoise
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| posted on January 27th, 2012 at 09:33 PM |
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The Neovas were mid to high 50s at the rear. The fronts were mid to high 40s. I started at 30psi hot but the pyro suggests that's too high for the
front. I dropped them 3 psi but then it rained, so I'll have to resume trying lower pressures at the next dry track day. The wet was fun, but I think
a sand bag or spare wheel would help.
The 2012 Neova Cup score board should be up in a week or two.
Cheers
esratrams
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