| [ Total Views: 1388 | Total Replies: 21 | Thread Id: 98650 ] |
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 bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
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 posted on September 2nd, 2012 at 05:59 PM |
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Front end shimmy on 69' beam front beetle (baja)?!
Good evening!
I been having an interesting predicament that i always thought was only subjective to the super bugs. I have front end shimmy shake on my 69 beam
front baja.
At about 65kph, i get a feeling in the steering wheel like a wheel out of balance, but it grows harder and starts shaking the car. It grows at the
same speed, and i can snap it out of it if i turn left or right hard and back at the same speed, or hit the brakes quick (Without loosing much speed)
and it goes back to norm. But a few mins later it can come back or sometimes never comes back till the next drive.
I can stick my head out the window when its doing this and can see the front wheel (only can see on the drivers side) shake like crazy, but when i
snap it out of this vibration craze the wheels roll true and fine.
My suspicion! Is that the urethane torsion bar bushes allow for it to shake, and like any resonance/natural frequency the displacement just builds up
and goes crazy. I don't have the stock roller bearings in the torsion tubes any more.
What do you guys rekon?
has anyone else had this on a beam front bug?
Some days it never happens, others it comes every 5 minutes. :S
Thanks for reading,
Christopher. 
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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OZ Towdster
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| posted on September 2nd, 2012 at 06:13 PM |
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Check all your tie rod ends , wheel alignment etc .
As a basic check on your wheel alignment you want the front of your tyres to be approx 3mm closer together than the rear of your front tyres and thas
sitting on the ground at ride height .
Hows your steering damper ????
And lastly your beam rake may be a bit out due to your suspension settings
Don't let body work get in the way of real suspension travel
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
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The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
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| posted on September 2nd, 2012 at 06:36 PM |
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Awesome! Thanks Andrew i'll have to have a sticky beak at all of those. The wheel alignment was done approximately last december and the tie rods
were new german ones that have seen the road for about 12 months. The steering does like to drift to the right so it could be out of whack given the
drives i have had. i was told that weight distribution in the car (like driver in and no passenger, weight on right on drivers side) causes the car to
pull in that direction with that side squatting a little, does this sound right? This was a generic 'non-vw specialised' steering mob's opinion so
took it with a grain of salt.
The steering damper was new and only saw the road for 12 months, BUT! it is brazilian, soo could be the culprit. However it seems any new vw bit seems
to be a dud occasionally. I'll check on Tuesday.
Much appreciated mate
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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bugzla
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| posted on September 2nd, 2012 at 09:10 PM |
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also check to make sure you check for wheel bearing play
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ragged
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| posted on September 3rd, 2012 at 05:15 PM |
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Don't forget to have your tyres balanced. It may be that simple!
Dave
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68AutoBug
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| posted on September 3rd, 2012 at 05:29 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
Awesome! Thanks Andrew i'll have to have a sticky beak at all of those. The wheel alignment was done approximately last december and the tie rods
were new german ones that have seen the road for about 12 months. The steering does like to drift to the right so it could be out of whack given the
drives i have had. i was told that weight distribution in the car (like driver in and no passenger, weight on right on drivers side) causes the car to
pull in that direction with that side squatting a little, does this sound right? This was a generic 'non-vw specialised' steering mob's opinion so
took it with a grain of salt.
The steering damper was new and only saw the road for 12 months, BUT! it is brazilian, soo could be the culprit. However it seems any new vw bit seems
to be a dud occasionally. I'll check on Tuesday.
Much appreciated mate
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Hi Chris
a worn steering damper shouldn't do that as early beetles didn't have them at all.. lol
also having someone sitting in a car shouldn't have that effect either.. and You should be able to let the steering wheel go when traveling on an
even straight road..
I remember hearing about that many years ago , an elderly lady bought her beetle in to a mechanic and said when She lets the steering wheel go the car
pulls to one side..
The mechanic took the car for a drive and nothing He could do could get the car to pull to one side..
He finally asked the owner at what speed did this happen?
She replied at 70 miles an hour.. lol supposed to be a true story..
normally Your wheel alignment should be OK but if You have hit something hard.. it can knock the steering out a bit..
it will eventually wear out a tyre also.. I know on a VW beetle , that a small amount out of alignment of one of the two tie rods.. will make it
happen...
could also be a wheel out of balance.. some are way out and the weights fix them up.. if that weight comes off...
shake will come back..
[the tyres are never a perfect balance]
cheers
LEE
PS: steering damper usually leak all the oil out when the are worn.. just replaced mine not long ago.. Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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 matberry
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| posted on September 3rd, 2012 at 06:34 PM |
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Chris, I've had the same issues, maybe it's the Thing stub axles. My front wheels aren't perfectly true and I feel that's the catalyst for the
shimmy. I posted the day before you started this thread mentioning the same with my baja. After adjusting castor and toe I have improved it heaps.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=69105&page=17#pid920577
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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nils
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| posted on September 3rd, 2012 at 07:38 PM |
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Incorrect castor? Is your beam wound up at all?
Quit calling rust patina
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HappyDaze
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| posted on September 3rd, 2012 at 07:48 PM |
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While you are checking the front end, make sure the frame head is not cracked, or detached from the frame.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 5th, 2012 at 12:47 PM |
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I just repaired a car with the same complaint.
It had early (6 Volt) stub axles and someone had replaced the right hand wheel bearings with late (12 volt) bearings.
The inner diameter of the inner bearing is about 2 mm less on the early ones.
No wonder it was wobbly!
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
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| posted on September 6th, 2012 at 09:56 AM |
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thanks for all your support guys, i believe i have found the cause of the problem.
I bought a new steering damper knowing that the original i put on was a brazilian. i now have a BOGE german one. but upon disassembly, the old
steering damper was fine. Anyways, now have a spare.
I don't have bearings in my front beam, i have urethane bushes. the passenger side bottom torsion tube has massive amount of moment, allowing the
whole wheel to move significantly. Its moving in the urethane support which tells me the urthane must be cactus. Because of the movment, the torsion
arm is probably bouncing between the urethane sides like a trampoline.
i have an original beam at home with the original needle bearings, i think i will just stick with needle bearings. no weekend play for Chris due to
time contraints, but it is nice knowing the problem location and thus will be able to implement the solution. I was thinking of swapping beams anyways
so i could put bigger front tyres on while keeping the same height (curing the whacky wheels racer look).
it was a funny one, because it never shimmyed like this when i first got it registered which was 12 months ago with all the thing suspension
components fitted.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on September 6th, 2012 at 07:55 PM |
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Good to find the problem Chris
I don't like urethane anything as they cannot twist like rubber
they are too hard and not flexible..
yet not good enough to replace needle rollers..
rear torsion bar bushes too..
Rubber Only....
OK on the Brasillian steering damper..
Many things are now Brasillian... hopefully GOOD brasillian
and many parts were made by the same original company but in Brasil.. not Germany
cheers
LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 11:41 AM |
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Ahhh. The old urethane beam bush saga rears it's ugly head again!
Methinks a new thread is in order!
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 06:22 PM |
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oH! haha, just saw this after posting in your thread lol.
I'm off to go back to OEM style needle bearings.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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shaihulud
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 01:15 AM |
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Recently the Manx SR has had attacks of the death wobbles, at random times when I accelerate at maximum and always when I accelerated at maximum from
a certain set of lights.
I'm still a bit of a hoon.
It comes on at about 60km/h and I have to slow to about 50km/h to get rid of it. It never happens if I accelerated slowly right up to 100km/h on the
freeway.
I checked the front end to find that the bolts on the tie rod ends had not been tightened after a recent front end alignment. Everything else was
O.K.
This problem never happened before the front end alignment.
I cursed and tightened the bolts. I can't see how this would affect the front end, but I haven't driven the car since then, so I can't report on
any improvement.
The front end is a standard 1968 ball joint with 4 year old ball joints and very good bearings and surfaces in the torsion bar tubes.
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 12:55 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
oH! haha, just saw this after posting in your thread lol.
I'm off to go back to OEM style needle bearings.
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Cool!
What are your inner bushes like?
I'm just about to go there in the other thread.
I started it 'cos I didn't want to be a knob and hijack your thread.
Regards,
Phil.
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 02:12 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by shaihulud
Recently the Manx SR has had attacks of the death wobbles, at random times when I accelerate at maximum and always when I accelerated at maximum from
a certain set of lights.
I'm still a bit of a hoon.
It comes on at about 60km/h and I have to slow to about 50km/h to get rid of it. It never happens if I accelerated slowly right up to 100km/h on the
freeway.
I checked the front end to find that the bolts on the tie rod ends had not been tightened after a recent front end alignment. Everything else was
O.K.
This problem never happened before the front end alignment.
I cursed and tightened the bolts. I can't see how this would affect the front end, but I haven't driven the car since then, so I can't report on
any improvement.
The front end is a standard 1968 ball joint with 4 year old ball joints and very good bearings and surfaces in the torsion bar tubes.
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it doesn't take much to upset the front toe in and drive quality..
also check the steering box bolts... they need to be very tight..
looks like the tie rods were moving slightly..
problem I had was My steering box was moving slightly..
very slightly... there are two locating lugs that the box needs to be fitted too...
cheers
LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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Smiley
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| posted on September 9th, 2012 at 09:34 PM |
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Have you been greasing the bushes Chris?
Cause they need to be lubricated or they will wear out.
Smiley
If you said I was a Volkswagen man, you'd be right.
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 05:39 PM |
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How did you go with this, Chris?
I am interested what you have found with this!
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
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| posted on September 27th, 2012 at 08:06 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Lucky Phil
| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
oH! haha, just saw this after posting in your thread lol.
I'm off to go back to OEM style needle bearings.
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Cool!
What are your inner bushes like?
I'm just about to go there in the other thread.
I started it 'cos I didn't want to be a knob and hijack your thread.
Regards,
Phil.
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lol no idea yet . lazy Chris, Will reward myself with doing baja work
after i finish the literature review (puke!) of my uni thesis.
I have a spare beam with the needle bearings already fitted, will use that and inspect the bushes. This new beam is stock height as opposed to raised
(which i got now) which i want for when i put bigger tyres on the front to fill the guards up.
I'm kinda hoping they are ok still, not sure on inspection methods (just loosen torsion arms and check for play??) Because changing it all over looks
like a pain in the backside.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
Posts: 6661
Threads: 534
Registered: April 8th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Tanah Merah, SE-QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: A bee bit ma' bottom, now ma' bottom's big!
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| posted on September 27th, 2012 at 08:09 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Smiley
Have you been greasing the bushes Chris?
Cause they need to be lubricated or they will wear out.
Smiley
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G'day Daniel! Yea was pretty vigilant with that. It looks moreso that the urethane has distorted/deformed, and its shape even from teh outside looks
'squashed' as opposed to how it was when first fitted. I believe this distorsion is what has led to the shimmy.
Well telling my grandfather last night about the issue, he chuckled and brought out some good ol' stories of the shimmy in his 57' landrover haha,
people would point and yell about his wheels going crazy and he'd yell back (in a struggle keeping the car straight) "I KNOW!!!" lol.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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Smiley
A.k.a.: Daniel Stephens
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| posted on October 2nd, 2012 at 08:24 PM |
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You also need to make sure that you a lubricating with the right lube.
Some lubricants have a chemical reaction with the urethane and cause it to break down and go soft. I was reading something about this on The Samba,
but can not remember what lube they said to use.
Perhaps this is was happened to your bushes?
To check the bearings on you other beam fit one of the trailing arms in with nor torsion bars and check to see that it has no play or movement back or
forward inside the tubes.
Smiley
If you said I was a Volkswagen man, you'd be right.
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