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 eXraycer
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| posted on December 28th, 2012 at 07:55 PM |
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Type 3 front beam bearings
Upon removing the front torsion arms I've encountered the lower right arm has some grooved wear on the shaft. I've sourced another to replace it but
the goddamn bearings....... arghhhh
Should I replace the bearing and how to tell if its stuffed?
Who has them for sale? Are they really that rare? I really didn't expect to have trouble finding some but they are like trying to find truffles and
I'm expecting they'd be damn near as expensive....
Are they specific to type 3? I've seen some reference to type 1 beam (lower) bearings being suitable but can someone confirm this?
Do you replace the inner bush as well as the needle roller or is it ok to leave the bush in place?
I think I need some edumacation on the beam servicing. Has any of you vw folks seen a tutorial anywhere?
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vlad01
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| posted on December 28th, 2012 at 11:17 PM |
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bottom bearings are the same as bug apparently, top are type 3 only. Took me a year with a contact in Belgium to source me a set of NOS needle
bearings.
the metal bushes are a royal PITA.
to this date I still haven't got a set of lower inner metal bushes that are any good and I been looking since 2010, but as they are problematic is
they way the wear out too fast, I am going to have bronze bushes with grease grooves made up and fitted in my beam.
but talking to my machinist he recons CBC bearing should have all of them, even the metal bushes, he showed me some he have from CBC , the metal
bushes were of the exact type just different size.
And to answer your other question regards to replace both, yes you must if you said there was grooves worn in the shaft of the arms. They will most
certainly be well and truly rooted, metal on meal in fact.
They are only a steel shell with a thin coat of Babbitt metal, they look a cam bearing somewhat. Full shell with single split in it.
They might be worth a try. I am going to them in the new year to look for suitable bronze ones.
Try CBC, they might just have them, if not a suitable oversize you can ream the bakelite to fit oversize.
hope this helps.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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eXraycer
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| posted on December 30th, 2012 at 01:13 AM |
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Vlad thanks very much. Your answer was incredibly detailed.
I havent had much luck finding bearings and the bushes are definitely extinct. From what I can tell - people just seem to cherry-pick whole beams from
wreckers when they think theirs might be worn but I don't know how they check the wear of the bush I guess you just have to assume if the shaft is
worn then the bush is gone. It's not like you can get some kinda measuring tool inside and check the bush. Or can you?
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eXraycer
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| posted on December 30th, 2012 at 01:47 AM |
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You plan to make this in bronze? http://www.flickr.com/photos/92487046@N00/197966914/
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| posted on December 30th, 2012 at 06:23 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
bottom bearings are the same as bug apparently, top are type 3 only. Took me a year with a contact in Belgium to source me a set of NOS needle
bearings.
the metal bushes are a royal PITA.
to this date I still haven't got a set of lower inner metal bushes that are any good and I been looking since 2010, but as they are problematic is
they way the wear out too fast, I am going to have bronze bushes with grease grooves made up and fitted in my beam.
but talking to my machinist he recons CBC bearing should have all of them, even the metal bushes, he showed me some he have from CBC , the metal
bushes were of the exact type just different size.
And to answer your other question regards to replace both, yes you must if you said there was grooves worn in the shaft of the arms. They will most
certainly be well and truly rooted, metal on meal in fact.
They are only a steel shell with a thin coat of Babbitt metal, they look a cam bearing somewhat. Full shell with single split in it.
They might be worth a try. I am going to them in the new year to look for suitable bronze ones.
Try CBC, they might just have them, if not a suitable oversize you can ream the bakelite to fit oversize.
hope this helps.
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all the bearings are different to a beetle
volkaholics.net come check us out
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dragsters for life
Fahrvergnugen
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| posted on December 30th, 2012 at 06:25 AM |
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id look for another beam, we just had the same prob with the pv, new beams being cleaned up today
volkaholics.net come check us out
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 matberry
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| posted on December 30th, 2012 at 08:55 AM |
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Vlad is onto it with the fact of if the arm is chewed up, you could bet your left one that the internal beam bearings are also beyond useful service
life. Definately treat the needle rollers carefully as they can be reused if a special tool is used to remove them.
John Alder from Volks Engineering in Brisbane does my beams for me. He does the best job possible. I've been repairing beams as required since the
1980's and have seen plenty in need of repair, even the nongenuine new beams aren't real good, but John's repairs are second to none. I know for
sure he can do type1 king/link and ball-joint, but I reckon if you ask nicely, if he can't do type 3 already, he'd set up for them.
I don't think there is really an issue with the og design, premature wear is purely due to lack of maintenance. The original service interval for
greasing the beam is 1000mls with the axle lifted from the ground. How many do that!
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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vlad01
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| posted on December 30th, 2012 at 03:41 PM |
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yes, just it will be thicker and therefore oversize by about 2-3mm for bronze to be practically strong.
The bakelite are 5mm approximately for the wall thickness so there is enough to ream out for the bronze ones. alternatively I could remove the
bakelite altogether and go solid bonze all the way but thats a PITA to install as you would need to drive the bush all the way in.
Either way it will be better than the steel shell bushes and would last "you" a life time rather than the car a life time which was short in the
60-70s by today's (more likes 90s actually) standards.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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vlad01
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| posted on December 30th, 2012 at 03:57 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Vlad is onto it with the fact of if the arm is chewed up, you could bet your left one that the internal beam bearings are also beyond useful service
life. Definately treat the needle rollers carefully as they can be reused if a special tool is used to remove them.
John Alder from Volks Engineering in Brisbane does my beams for me. He does the best job possible. I've been repairing beams as required since the
1980's and have seen plenty in need of repair, even the nongenuine new beams aren't real good, but John's repairs are second to none. I know for
sure he can do type1 king/link and ball-joint, but I reckon if you ask nicely, if he can't do type 3 already, he'd set up for them.
I don't think there is really an issue with the og design, premature wear is purely due to lack of maintenance. The original service interval for
greasing the beam is 1000mls with the axle lifted from the ground. How many do that!
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mine was, 46k miles with all details in the log book, serviced by VW them selves, mine just hit the copper in the steel shell, very lucky as all my
arms have is copper markings in them and haven't wore any grooves. There was no evidence of lack of service, the arms came out caked in grease so i
don't think that was a problem.
I have a beam with about I think 22k miles, that car was last on the road in 1980 and it was a 70 model, the beam was immaculate! til I open the left
side up.
f**king arm was bent and the beam bent internally. 
so pissed as it was the only good beam I have come across on a type 3.
The thing is the coating on the bush is only what looks like 0.1-0.2mm thick and doesn't take much time to go through and hit steel.
Funny thing is the bottom ones are the only ones that suffer this premature wear so even if you miss services or you get them serviced on time the
bottoms ones shit them selves way before the top.
The load bearing arms is the lower ones unlike the bug where the load is shared between the top and bottom.
Yes you are right, the bearing can be saved if you have the right extracting tools.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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eXraycer
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| posted on January 4th, 2013 at 10:06 PM |
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Thanks for the response guys. Will be taking the advise. Unfortunately I'm in Sydney so I don't really want to ship my beam both ways to and from
Brissy.
Definitely replacing one lower control arm which has the score marks with a good condition one. Also just managed to find some NOS lower bushes from a
guy in UK so will reco the lower beam bushes when they arrive. The needle bearings I will re-use as they a proving to be rare and all indications from
guys here and mechanics I've spoken to say that the bearings in most cases can be re-used.
As I don't have the tool to remove the needle bearings and never done it before I will give it to a local vw guy I know who has the bearing removal
tool. I got no idea what it looks like but he's willing to let me hang about while he does the job so at least I'll learn something and not just
handing over the cash blindly.
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eXraycer
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| posted on January 5th, 2013 at 01:51 PM |
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Hey Vlad, just in case the bushes I bought are the wrong ones (apparently pre '62 are different) I might go down the same road as you and make some
in bronze.
Question: Is the split in the original bush only there to assist in removal or to migrate grease to the wear surface. The split would make it harder
to manufacture. I have a lathe but can't understand how to machine the split without butchering it.
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vlad01
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 11:06 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by eXraycer
Hey Vlad, just in case the bushes I bought are the wrong ones (apparently pre '62 are different) I might go down the same road as you and make some
in bronze.
Question: Is the split in the original bush only there to assist in removal or to migrate grease to the wear surface. The split would make it harder
to manufacture. I have a lathe but can't understand how to machine the split without butchering it.
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yes there were more than 2 sizes, quite a few maybe?
I know there was like 3 or 4 control arm diameters and sizes, seals, needle bearings etc...
Had a look inside my spare bent beam, looks like the bakelite bushes are quite thin so solid bronze bushes would be the go and looks like it would be
easy for any engineer or machinist to do.
machine them for a press fit for the beam, while having the ID undersize.
press them in, ream them to the correct size to suit "your" control arm shafts. The best thing from this is if you have some wear on the arm shafts,
they can be machined a tad and polished and the bushes reamed to suit the new size 
btw the upper ones last a life time, they don't seam to wear at all because they don't take the load like the lowers ones. Plus those are available
NOS fairly easy.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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eXraycer
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 03:44 PM |
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Thanks for the reply Vlad.
Yes as suspected the bushes I received are too big. Probably for the really early front beams.
I'm gonna attempt to find a bush off the shelf with correct ID made from Deva metal. (probably pissing in the wind though)
I will see what I can find. I think possibly easier to remanufacture or ream out the existing Bakelite to fit the new bush. Or remanufacture the
Bakelite in Delrin and ream to suit.
I'm beginnig to think that after looking at the design closely that reaming the Bakelite in-situ is an essential part of the equation in order to
ensure the alignment of the metal bush is square in relation to the shaft. In my mind, this kinda rules out a full metal bush spacer because reaming a
metal spacer would be difficult if done inside the beam.
I see why a lot of people get to this point and decide its easier to find another beam.
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vlad01
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| posted on January 17th, 2013 at 08:41 AM |
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derlin might work but from what I have heard its not good long term, isn't as dimensionally stable as Bakelite.
depends on what grade of bronze, but a soft bronze would be recommended for protection of the arm shaft and also be straight forward to ream.
Obviously take longer and more effort to ream than the OG material but VW would of done this to save costs and time and material costs are heaps
cheaper than bronze.
Any good machine shop with old guys working would be able to do this very well. Some of the crazy shit I have seen my machinist do makes this look
piss easy.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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eXraycer
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| posted on January 19th, 2013 at 06:46 PM |
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I have made a diy bush removal tool similar to a few I've seen on the net. A small improvement you'll see is the filing of a step in the plate that
hooks to the back of the bush.
I made some videos of the bush extraction cause quite simply there's not much info out there and I thought this might help a few other people if I
was successful.
Part 1 http://youtu.be/Yd2MH2vVgxk
Part 2 http://youtu.be/DfkraLYpobU
Part 3 http://youtu.be/IARtldczwOk
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eXraycer
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| posted on January 24th, 2013 at 06:01 PM |
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Ok I think I may have a solution that solves both the extinct lower bushing and the worn trailing arm shaft problem.
I found bushes with the right OD and 1mm smaller ID.
I will try to locate a machinist to re machine the surface of the trailing arm shaft 1mm smaller. This will remove the score marks and prepare it for
the commonly available 32mm Permaglide (TM) bushes.
Here's a pic.
INA brand bearing commonly available at CBC bearings
code
PAP 3230 P10
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eXraycer
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| posted on January 30th, 2013 at 02:46 PM |
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Yep this is gonna happen. I bought the bushes. $14 a piece.
Found a machining company with a big bastard lathe. They will clean up and resize the bearing surface on the trailing arm for the slightly smaller
bush. $150 to do that work. Not cheap but not unreasonable either. I have a lathe but its not big enough. They will need to make a dowel to hold the
trailing arm from the outside end and use a 'live centre' turning technique to turn down the inner bush end by 1mm.
I really hope this works out. Second hand front ends are an unknown quantity. You never really know how flogged the inner bush is until you remove the
trailing arms and bushes. At least this way I know it's good for 50k more miles.
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eXraycer
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| posted on February 3rd, 2013 at 12:56 AM |
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Good news, the theory worked.( Video link below ) Using a readily available bush and modifying the surface of the shaft turned out to be a viable
solution. Also there's a chance you might salvage a trailing arm shaft that's a bit worn. My worn out trailing arm shaft turned out to be too far
gone so I replaced the arm before machining.
The inside diameter of the new bush also fits the top arm shaft without machining the shaft. What you will likely have to do is turn down the OD of
the bush itself by 1mm or ream the Bakelite but I did not need to replace the top bushes so I could not check the exact OD. I can only confirm the ID.
I did one more video installment to show you the bushes and insertion into the beam. Also the work done to the trailing arm by Curran engineering near
Bankstown airport at Georges Hall NSW.
Here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty4mcLt7Mvk
Edit: I wondered: What if I had broken the Bakelite bush? What then? Well I did a lot of searching trying to find the correct stock bushes and csme
across this slternative and I think I would have tried this polymer bush msterial called Vesconite. Basically I would have made a full thickness one
piece bush out of this product. http://www.vesconite.com/prod/mvbush.htm similar to what some companies do with Delrin. I think going by the specs that
this product is a superior bush material to Delrin.
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vlad01
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| posted on February 4th, 2013 at 05:43 PM |
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great stuff, you posted this on the samba yet? this is valuable info right here
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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eXraycer
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| posted on February 5th, 2013 at 09:52 PM |
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Hey thanks. Going from total noob to understanding how to reco the front end has been a bit of an experience. I will post it on Samba when I get a
chance.
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vlad01
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| posted on February 6th, 2013 at 02:10 PM |
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seen your video, very good. not sure about the tolerance but it sould right to me.
what is the coating used on the bearing ID?
they look a lot thicker than the stock bearings which would make them easier to install. Given that your tools worked good, any change or people
hiring them?
71 notchback,
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eXraycer
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| posted on February 6th, 2013 at 10:29 PM |
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The coating is called Permaglide, (TM) a self lubricating plastic over zinc flashed steel so it doesn't rust. I think that's what companies say when
they don't pay royalties to use patented self lubricating plastics like Teflon (TM). Draw your own conclusions I guess.
The tolerance feels perfect. No rattle, slides on like an air cushion. They said it was not greater then 0.05. I'm very happy with the fit. Yup they
are thick and easy to get your hands on at a CBC bearing place.
PM me if anyone is desperate to use the bush puller. It really aint that hard to make. I just used a hacksaw. A drill (Two holes) a round file to
connect the dots, and a flat file to file the round corners and step around the edges. Took about half hour to make. Just draw a 36mm circle and
another 33mm circle on paper. Use them as a template to file the ends and the step. (thats for the bottom beam).
Top beam is different. (32mm and 35mm) but I didn't make a tool for that cause mine were not worn out.
If you're really desperate tp loan it I Prefer in Sydney so I can hunt you down if you don't give it back but honestly, to reco the front end you
need a bit of resourcefulness so making the tool is a good test for anyone and you get to keep it!
On my tool the threaded rod needs replacing though. I used builders rod but that was crap and easy to strip the thread which happened twice. I need to
get some engineers grade threaded rod to re-use the tool properly.
The drift. I'm not so sure about loaning. It's not my lump of stainless steel. Was my cousin's toolroom. I borrowed it. lol.
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vlad01
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| posted on February 7th, 2013 at 08:12 AM |
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Yeah I seen those bearing at CBC coz I looked into it myself but I am sticking with bronze idea for longevity.
Teflon coated they certainly are and most likely wont last at long as the OG ones as they are a babbitt metal.
but at least you can buy new ones for cheap when you need them.
About the tools, if I could get the measurements on the tools when I need them that would be great. Then I can make my own tools to suit bronze bushes
instead. Should be virtually the same drift tool but with stock arm size not undersize like yours.
if my arms need any machining it will only be few 10ths of a mm max as mine have no scores.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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eXraycer
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| posted on February 7th, 2013 at 10:48 PM |
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Dont forget to measure depth of the bush in the torsion housing before you pull it out.
Also let us know what you find under the Bakelite. If it is smooth. I see some spot welds on the outside of the beam at the bush location. Wanting to
know if the welds go right through and interfere with the Bakelite bush to lock it in there.
About the Babbit metal being more durable than Teflon. From what has been described by the permaglide manufacturers and my own impression after I
popped the original bush out and compared what was left of the thin babbit metal coating, I found it was very soft. You can score it easily with a
screwdriver. The fact that it is soft adds to the reason why it is suitable as a bearing coating if you look up the Wikipedia page on babbit metal. I
reckon the permaglide stuff has been designed and tested to replace babbit metal for this kind of application and probably works in the exact same way
because it too is relatively soft yet very slippery. Anyhow time will tell. I'm pretty confident it will be fine.
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nsuwift
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| posted on February 8th, 2013 at 09:53 PM |
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these are on the samba in the gallery section.
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eXraycer
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| posted on February 9th, 2013 at 12:28 AM |
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They look about right.
I contacted a lot of people and was not able to find NOS.
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| posted on February 9th, 2013 at 11:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by eXraycer
Dont forget to measure depth of the bush in the torsion housing before you pull it out.
Also let us know what you find under the Bakelite. If it is smooth. I see some spot welds on the outside of the beam at the bush location. Wanting to
know if the welds go right through and interfere with the Bakelite bush to lock it in there.
About the Babbit metal being more durable than Teflon. From what has been described by the permaglide manufacturers and my own impression after I
popped the original bush out and compared what was left of the thin babbit metal coating, I found it was very soft. You can score it easily with a
screwdriver. The fact that it is soft adds to the reason why it is suitable as a bearing coating if you look up the Wikipedia page on babbit metal. I
reckon the permaglide stuff has been designed and tested to replace babbit metal for this kind of application and probably works in the exact same way
because it too is relatively soft yet very slippery. Anyhow time will tell. I'm pretty confident it will be fine.
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teflon is way cheaper than to make bearing with babbitt, they dont make engine bearings with teflon for a reason, it isn't suitable as a long lasting
high load caring surface.
I don't think the OG ones were totally babbitt either as it looks like there is other stuff mixed in as well. I have 4 NOS lower ones here, but are
too rusty to use.
Cost will be the main reason for the teflon. I even got told by CBC that these wont be a long lasting bush/bearing but still ok as long as you change
them out every so often.
71 notchback,
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| posted on February 9th, 2013 at 11:25 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by nsuwift
these are on the samba in the gallery section.
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few days ago there was a thread on them.
apparently they are conrod small ends.
they look totally difference to my NOS lower or upper ones
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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eXraycer
Seriously Crusin Dubber
Posts: 166
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| posted on February 10th, 2013 at 03:21 PM |
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I believe keeping the beam filled with grease on a frequent routine basis is ultimately the main determinant for longevity or premature wear in this
situation. Its what vw intended and every VW repairer has seen the effects of poor greasing schedule on the beam bearings and bushes. Thats why im not
too concerned that the actual bush coating material is teflon or babbit metal, besides the fact that finding the correct sized babbit metal bushes is
like finding a unicorn. At the end of the day, mine is done and I can move forward. If it's not durable enough ( but what's durable? 25k mi, 50k mi,
100k mi?) I'll find out early cause I'll be keeping an eye on things when I adjust my beam height later. Not too much extra work to pull the
trailing arms out if I'm in the process of adjusting my ride height.
The other thing I didn't mention is that original bearings are 25mm wide. The new ones are 30mm wide so I have effectively increased the bearing
surface area by an extra five mm or 20%.
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matberry
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Go hard or go home
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Mood: enjoying waving at all my Kombi buddies from my T3
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| posted on February 10th, 2013 at 03:46 PM |
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Good stuff.
I agree with the regular greasing being a major component to the longevety of front-end bearings., with regular greasing (every 1500km or so) I think
you'll get good life with the new wider bearing.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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