| [ Total Views: 1119 | Total Replies: 27 | Thread Id: 102108 ] |
|
|
 pfillery
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 734
Threads: 160
Registered: December 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 21st, 2013 at 09:00 PM |
|
|
Making sense of ADRs - any experts out there?
Trying to make sense of ADRs. The current one is version 3. The previous one is version 2 and applies to cars built after 1969. There is no version
one. So my question is, what applies to vehicles built before 1969?
They can't backdate standards I assume (ie apply the 1969 standard to pre 69 cars) otherwise we'd all be retrofitting airbags to our bugs. I need to
establish the regs for things like moving the front indicators (later bugs have indicators in the front bumpers and this is what i want to do but
apparently there are rules about size and brightness), positioning of mirrors and fitting of seatbelts etc etc which the transport department tells me
is covered in the ADRs but no ADR is in place for 1966. Or earlier for that matter.
Has anyone dealt with this before? I can't seem to get an answer from transport and the wait time to talk to compliance section who handles this
sort of thing is up to a couple of hours. Should be the same Australia wide.
|
|
|
vlad01
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
Posts: 4270
Threads: 109
Registered: June 3rd, 2010
Member Is Offline
Location: Kyneton, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Side ways
|
| posted on May 21st, 2013 at 09:42 PM |
|
|
pretty sure ADR doesn't apply to pre 70 or 69 cars?
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
|
|
psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Posts: 2506
Threads: 148
Registered: January 1st, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: North East Melbourne, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Psyche Blue
|
| posted on May 21st, 2013 at 11:41 PM |
|
|
but NCOP does. NCOP is what ADR is based upon. Stands for National Code Of Practice.
Basically any mod you wish to do to any year of vehicle must be done to NCOP standards.
ADRs are just what modern OEM vehicles must pass really IMO.
madness is in the eye of the beholder  |
|
|
 helbus
A.k.a.: Pete S
Super Administrator
Mad fabricator, paint and body
Posts: 7386
Threads: 312
Registered: September 1st, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: In the garage chopping cars into bits
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: In the thinking chair
|
| posted on May 22nd, 2013 at 12:06 AM |
|
|
If your car is pre 1/1/1969 then there are no ADR's required if it is not modified. Modified is ambiguous, as 1966 vehicles did not need certain
things, so modifying to include those things puts you into a more grey area.
If it is modified engine, chassis, seating, suspension etc. you must speak to an Automotive Engineer in your state.
Most engineers are guided by the NCOP, and there is another document known as VSB14 (Vehicle Service Bulletin)
I mostly deal with modifying 1967 or earlier vehicles, and the ease of being earlier than 1969 is obvious (in Victoria, being the VASS system). Go
with the system, and that bit of paper they give you ate end is worth it. I do Stretch limo's, chop tops, V8's, convertibles and more and deal with
this all the time.
|
|
|
pfillery
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 734
Threads: 160
Registered: December 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 22nd, 2013 at 08:08 AM |
|
|
But presumably things like, for example, fitting additional indicators to an oval, in lieu of just the semaphores, should not be an issue (ie you
should be able to add extra safety features but not remove them). Later bugs had indicators in the front bars (not sure if that was in addition to or
in place of the fender top ones) so theoretically if this is done on one not covered by ADRs this should be ok and not be something they can pull you
up on?
It makes it hard when the lack of info available means it is only rego time that you find out what you have done is not ok.
Does the national code of practice cover a "one rule for all" approach, ie a model T Ford often has no indicators, no tail lights and wooded body,
so does a 1960's early bug fit in the same bracket as this or are they era specific. Considering you can baja a beetle and it is still a beetle with
no mod plate required as far as I'm aware, surely changing simple things would not be too much of an issue?
|
|
|
 matberry
Super Moderator
Go hard or go home
Posts: 8114
Threads: 134
Registered: March 7th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Cooroy Qld
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: enjoying waving at all my Kombi buddies from my T3
|
| posted on May 22nd, 2013 at 08:22 AM |
|
|
Baja's certainly require a QT Mod plate
When I used to deal with Qld DoT, improvements like you speak of were not inforced but recommended.
By the way, late bugs with indicators in the bars were instead of guard mounted ones.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
 |
|
|
Allbones
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 395
Threads: 58
Registered: July 5th, 2012
Member Is Offline
Location: Ipswich QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Black
|
| posted on May 22nd, 2013 at 08:56 AM |
|
|
Be verry careful when modifying, ever if you do not need to comply with ADR's, as far as I am aware, all vehicles need to comply with the AVSR or
Australian Vehicle Standard Rules
Link: http://www.ntc.gov.au/filemedia/Reforms/AustralianVehicleStandardsRules1.pdf
|
|
|
pfillery
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 734
Threads: 160
Registered: December 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 22nd, 2013 at 12:55 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Baja's certainly require a QT Mod plate
By the way, late bugs with indicators in the bars were instead of guard mounted ones.
|
I've seen some registered as VW beetle modified which have a mod plate and others registered as a baja without one, including one with a 2l kombi
motor.
The indicators is the main one. My bug has had the front blinkers removed from the guards and the holes welded for a streamlined look ("rodded" look
or so they call it), not my cup of tea but I'll roll with it for now. Don't go much for the wide wheels and 14 inch tyres either so thats why I'm
finishing it and selling it.
I have the go ahead to change the indicators, as long as they are the same or better brightness at least (not hard with a 60's bug that would have
originally been a 6v) and visible from a 45 degree angle to the side of the car then they are ok.
Its funny how they apply the rules to seatbelts though. Not brought out with belts = legally allowed to register and use without belts. If I want to
fit them and they are not "as original" I need a mod plate and engineering in Qld. Would be better with belts than without but there are so many
hoops to jump through to make it compliant. Easier to leave them off.
|
|
|
Bone
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 299
Threads: 43
Registered: August 9th, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: Cooroy
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 22nd, 2013 at 05:40 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Baja's certainly require a QT Mod plate.
|
Baja's don't need mod plate but need the ''Letter of Approval'' to fit baja kit from QT mod's dept. This covers kit, front and rear cage only.
|
|
|
matberry
Super Moderator
Go hard or go home
Posts: 8114
Threads: 134
Registered: March 7th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Cooroy Qld
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: enjoying waving at all my Kombi buddies from my T3
|
| posted on May 22nd, 2013 at 06:16 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bone
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Baja's certainly require a QT Mod plate.
|
Baja's don't need mod plate but need the ''Letter of Approval'' to fit baja kit from QT mod's dept. This covers kit, front and rear cage only.
|
I stand corrected, sorry for the bum steer
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
|
|
|
bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
Posts: 6661
Threads: 534
Registered: April 8th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Tanah Merah, SE-QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: A bee bit ma' bottom, now ma' bottom's big!
|
| posted on May 22nd, 2013 at 06:21 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bone
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Baja's certainly require a QT Mod plate.
|
Baja's don't need mod plate but need the ''Letter of Approval'' to fit baja kit from QT mod's dept. This covers kit, front and rear cage only.
|
I stand corrected, sorry for the bum steer
|
and getting that letter is difficult... you need a baja kit that has the manufacturer make and model printed on it to prove it was made by such and
such assuming that 'such and such' provided you a baja kit that was an approved kit back in its day. Decades later paint and repairs hide or destroy
logos or model details  ... I know of lot of people such as myself rolling
the baja as a 'beetle' simply because of no manufacturer's logo, although I can strongly speculate it to be a sand piper kit from John Sherman back
in the day.
The only other alternative for them to approve my kit is destructive testing at a Nata testing facility (flexural and tensile testing) of a 100mm x
100mm (i think it was) square sample of my kit's fibreglass. QT said over the phone after submitting 'request to modify vehicle form' twice that
its to predict what happens if you hit a pedestrian. I can tell em what happens: nuffin good by the pedestrian with the front bull bar  !
Ah wells... sorry to deviate, just an interesting addition to the ADR discussion. But you can understand where QT is coming from, and they aren't
familiar with our vw madness/facet.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
|
|
psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Posts: 2506
Threads: 148
Registered: January 1st, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: North East Melbourne, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Psyche Blue
|
| posted on May 22nd, 2013 at 10:18 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pfillery
But presumably things like, for example, fitting additional indicators to an oval, in lieu of just the semaphores, should not be an issue (ie you
should be able to add extra safety features but not remove them). Later bugs had indicators in the front bars (not sure if that was in addition to or
in place of the fender top ones) so theoretically if this is done on one not covered by ADRs this should be ok and not be something they can pull you
up on?
It makes it hard when the lack of info available means it is only rego time that you find out what you have done is not ok.
Does the national code of practice cover a "one rule for all" approach, ie a model T Ford often has no indicators, no tail lights and wooded body,
so does a 1960's early bug fit in the same bracket as this or are they era specific. Considering you can baja a beetle and it is still a beetle with
no mod plate required as far as I'm aware, surely changing simple things would not be too much of an issue?
|
Careful when playing with the indicators cos as I found out when taking my semaphored bug for it's RWC the semaphores need to still operate as well
as the 'new' wing mounted ones. Even to the point that the semaphore bulb needed to flash like the rest of them. Could be RWC inspector specific but
beware 
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
|
|
AA003
A.k.a.: Phill
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1189
Threads: 39
Registered: October 27th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Southern Highlands
Theme: UltimaBB Streamlined2
|
| posted on May 23rd, 2013 at 06:22 AM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
Careful when playing with the indicators cos as I found out when taking my semaphored bug for it's RWC the semaphores need to still operate as well
as the 'new' wing mounted ones. Even to the point that the semaphore bulb needed to flash like the rest of them. Could be RWC inspector specific but
beware
|
Why would they need to flash if they never did from factory?
Sounds like the RWC inspector was a goose.
I read it on samba, so it must be correct.
Sometimes Volkswagen dealers sell spare parts. Amazing isn't it!
|
|
|
nils
Fahrvergnugen
Posts: 971
Threads: 65
Registered: January 11th, 2008
Member Is Offline
Location: central coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 23rd, 2013 at 07:12 AM |
|
|
Chris, when i bought my baja. this was the one thing that it HAD to above all else had to have, because like you said it really is a pain to get one.
mine was modified in '82. Kind of makes you wonder if even the dept of trans would have any record of that?
| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bone
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Baja's certainly require a QT Mod plate.
|
Baja's don't need mod plate but need the ''Letter of Approval'' to fit baja kit from QT mod's dept. This covers kit, front and rear cage only.
|
I stand corrected, sorry for the bum steer
|
and getting that letter is difficult... you need a baja kit that has the manufacturer make and model printed on it to prove it was made by such and
such assuming that 'such and such' provided you a baja kit that was an approved kit back in its day. Decades later paint and repairs hide or destroy
logos or model details ... I know of lot of people such as myself rolling
the baja as a 'beetle' simply because of no manufacturer's logo, although I can strongly speculate it to be a sand piper kit from John Sherman back
in the day.
The only other alternative for them to approve my kit is destructive testing at a Nata testing facility (flexural and tensile testing) of a 100mm x
100mm (i think it was) square sample of my kit's fibreglass. QT said over the phone after submitting 'request to modify vehicle form' twice that
its to predict what happens if you hit a pedestrian. I can tell em what happens: nuffin good by the pedestrian with the front bull bar !
Ah wells... sorry to deviate, just an interesting addition to the ADR discussion. But you can understand where QT is coming from, and they aren't
familiar with our vw madness/facet.
|
Quit calling rust patina
|
|
|
pfillery
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 734
Threads: 160
Registered: December 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 23rd, 2013 at 08:50 AM |
|
|
Makes it bloody hard. The guy from mods and compliance who I asked yesterday told me the blinkers cannot be any less bright or visible than the
standard. Not hard to be better than a 15 watt 6v bulb I say. Some nice led bulbs would easily exceed that. Plus they need to be visible at 45
degrees. But it may be simpler to refit the originals. Just takes away from the smooth streamlined look a bit. Plus new blinker rubbers and probably
lenses too are needed which will be more $$$ than led blinkers. Will decide what looks good later on. I have a couple of the park lamp fittings from
rossi lights which should be able to be fitted inside the headlights with an orange led bulb. At least that way someone can always change it back
later on.
|
|
|
AA003
A.k.a.: Phill
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1189
Threads: 39
Registered: October 27th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Southern Highlands
Theme: UltimaBB Streamlined2
|
| posted on May 23rd, 2013 at 09:59 AM |
|
|
How about some '76 bumpers, just for rego?
I read it on samba, so it must be correct.
Sometimes Volkswagen dealers sell spare parts. Amazing isn't it!
|
|
|
pfillery
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 734
Threads: 160
Registered: December 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 23rd, 2013 at 10:16 AM |
|
|
I got a plain front bar at the abbey swap so just need a rear now. I actually don't like the later bars. Not on an early bug anyway. Just want to get
it complete and back together then sell it. Looks awesome already so should be good once done. But not my taste particularly. I prefer stock.
|
|
|
AA003
A.k.a.: Phill
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1189
Threads: 39
Registered: October 27th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Southern Highlands
Theme: UltimaBB Streamlined2
|
| posted on May 23rd, 2013 at 10:30 AM |
|
|
"just for rego" get it?
Borrow a '76 bar?
I read it on samba, so it must be correct.
Sometimes Volkswagen dealers sell spare parts. Amazing isn't it!
|
|
|
pfillery
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 734
Threads: 160
Registered: December 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 23rd, 2013 at 04:32 PM |
|
|
I thought the later bars had wider mounts on them? In any case I have a front and I'm sourcing a rear so should be right. I don't plan to put this
one through rego anyway, just want to make sure whoever does can do it without issue. Trying to keep it as standard as it can be with a few tasteful
mods that comply.
|
|
|
psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Posts: 2506
Threads: 148
Registered: January 1st, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: North East Melbourne, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Psyche Blue
|
| posted on May 23rd, 2013 at 11:04 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by AA003
| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
Careful when playing with the indicators cos as I found out when taking my semaphored bug for it's RWC the semaphores need to still operate as well
as the 'new' wing mounted ones. Even to the point that the semaphore bulb needed to flash like the rest of them. Could be RWC inspector specific but
beware
|
Why would they need to flash if they never did from factory?
Sounds like the RWC inspector was a goose.
|
That's what I thought too. As we all know there is little consistency when it comes to RWC testers and Vehicle engineers but at least the OP has an
idea of what to expect
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
|
|
nils
Fahrvergnugen
Posts: 971
Threads: 65
Registered: January 11th, 2008
Member Is Offline
Location: central coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 24th, 2013 at 05:56 AM |
|
|
I looked into this a little last night, because it seems youare having alot of trouble just for indicators. I wouldn't hesitate changing mine WITHOUT
seeing an engineer. All indicators that are comercially avalible for automotive use should have the ADR that applies to them printed on there casing
somewhere. couldn't get a photo of my indicator ADR because of the way its mounted, but as you can see the number plate light falls under ADR 43
(all lighting may fall under this)
Which shows the the orangebulbs in the rossi's are actually a no no, all OEM lights from other cars will have these too. After that as long as you
follow the guide lines for visabilty, brightness and flash rate you are golden.
if your RWC guy is giving you greef about something so simple as this he either has no idea or is being a doosh
Quit calling rust patina
|
|
|
Lovebuggy
Seriously Crusin Dubber
Posts: 156
Threads: 21
Registered: December 29th, 2008
Member Is Offline
Location: Ipswich
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Making it happen
|
| posted on May 24th, 2013 at 07:47 AM |
|
|
It is not just that indicators say ADR - They must be E tagged and the correct catergory for the position of the inidcator on the vehicle. Front
Inidcators should be cat 1, 1a or 1b, Rear Indicators should be cat 2 and Side inidcators are Cat 3, 4, 5 or 6. You can tell the catergory by the
small numbers immediatley above the E marking on the lense.
Motor Cycle use Cat 11 and 12.
If going to an engineer becareful using generic lights of EBAY which may be tagged but are possibly untested copies out of China. You should use
known OEM brands.
Note however most roadworthy guys won't have a clue about this and as long as it works will be happy.
|
|
|
helbus
A.k.a.: Pete S
Super Administrator
Mad fabricator, paint and body
Posts: 7386
Threads: 312
Registered: September 1st, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: In the garage chopping cars into bits
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: In the thinking chair
|
| posted on May 24th, 2013 at 08:00 PM |
|
|
The ADR's are there to read
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/
|
|
|
pfillery
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 734
Threads: 160
Registered: December 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 24th, 2013 at 09:26 PM |
|
|
But the issue is that the ADR applies to the vehicle year in question, not to the parts, that is to say that a car made pre 1969 does no have an ADR
that covers it as such. So generic stuff is ok as long as it complies with the equivalent of what the vehicle came with in that year. So you
technically can't fit semaphores to a bug that came with indicators as this would be a backwards step. But you can fit better indicators to it. Makes
you wonder how these big window bugs pass with their oval conversions, even taking a 60s body and fitting it to a 70s pan (meaning it registers as 70s
but has 60s tech which is a no-no).
|
|
|
psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Posts: 2506
Threads: 148
Registered: January 1st, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: North East Melbourne, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Psyche Blue
|
| posted on May 24th, 2013 at 11:28 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pfillery
But the issue is that the ADR applies to the vehicle year in question, not to the parts, that is to say that a car made pre 1969 does no have an ADR
that covers it as such. So generic stuff is ok as long as it complies with the equivalent of what the vehicle came with in that year. So you
technically can't fit semaphores to a bug that came with indicators as this would be a backwards step. But you can fit better indicators to it. Makes
you wonder how these big window bugs pass with their oval conversions, even taking a 60s body and fitting it to a 70s pan (meaning it registers as 70s
but has 60s tech which is a no-no).
|
Well if your states transport authority actually decided to check your early body on late pan then you could well be in a whole heap of trouble.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
|
|
AA003
A.k.a.: Phill
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1189
Threads: 39
Registered: October 27th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Southern Highlands
Theme: UltimaBB Streamlined2
|
| posted on May 25th, 2013 at 06:18 AM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pfillery
But the issue is that the ADR applies to the vehicle year in question, not to the parts, that is to say that a car made pre 1969 does no have an ADR
that covers it as such. So generic stuff is ok as long as it complies with the equivalent of what the vehicle came with in that year. So you
technically can't fit semaphores to a bug that came with indicators as this would be a backwards step. But you can fit better indicators to it. Makes
you wonder how these big window bugs pass with their oval conversions, even taking a 60s body and fitting it to a 70s pan (meaning it registers as 70s
but has 60s tech which is a no-no).
|
ADRs may not apply, but you do have to comply with Vehicle Standards" and the regulations of your own state.
I read it on samba, so it must be correct.
Sometimes Volkswagen dealers sell spare parts. Amazing isn't it!
|
|
|
psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Posts: 2506
Threads: 148
Registered: January 1st, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: North East Melbourne, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Psyche Blue
|
| posted on May 25th, 2013 at 08:08 PM |
|
|
It's no different to the MOT in the UK. Tester knows the general rules but if ever stuck on older vehicles they just refer to the official books.
So if ya take it for a RWC and they come up with some odd failures then they have to give you a correct reason for the failure stating section of law
it's not meeting.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
|
|
helbus
A.k.a.: Pete S
Super Administrator
Mad fabricator, paint and body
Posts: 7386
Threads: 312
Registered: September 1st, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: In the garage chopping cars into bits
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: In the thinking chair
|
| posted on May 25th, 2013 at 09:11 PM |
|
|
When they took a 1932 Model A Ford for RWC from our work, the RWC guy was a bit confused. He had to put N/A (not applicable) in a lot of sections of
the RWC, as he could not check things that were not there.
|
|
|
