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 Baja Wes
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 posted on October 27th, 2003 at 05:05 PM |
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Buggy/Baja VS 4WD
Sunday morning a group of us met to have a play, and see the real world difference between a buggy, baja and a few 4wd's.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 05:07 PM |
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We tried 3 areas;
(1) the steep slippery hill,
(2) the easier but rutted hill,
(3) and an articulation circuit.
First up, the buggy.
(1) - no probs on the steep hill
(2) - no probs on the rutted hill
(3) - carried the wheels high on the articulation circuit but made it no probs
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 05:09 PM |
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Then the baja;
(1) roosted up the steep hill
(2) made the rutted hill look very easy
(3) made the articulation track look even easier
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 05:11 PM |
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The patrol was next;
(1) made the steep hill ok, although missed the course and went the wrong side of a tree on the first attempt
(2) made the rutted hill easy
(3) had a real struggle with the articulation circuit due to the long wheelbase. Impressive suspension travel but just too long. Did eventually make
it though
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 05:13 PM |
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Then the hilux;
(1) no chance of doing the steep hill, not even with a big run up
(2) tricked by the baja into trying the rutted hill at the same slow speed on the first attempt, and failed. Second run was faster and made it fine
(3) Hilux's aren't known for their axle travel, and consequently struggled. Had to go around part of the difficult articulation section
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 05:18 PM |
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lastly, the freelander;
(1) had a good go at the steep track despite the street tyres, but couldn't make it.
(2) amazed us by making it up the rutted track despite very little ground clearance
(3) had a struggle on the articulation track. Little wheel travel and bad approach angle was a problem. Shorter wheelbase helped, but could not tackle
the articulation circuit directly over the difficult section, had to slightly go around it like the hilux.
So other drivers for the day, did all that sound about right?
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Andy
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 05:45 PM |
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Just a question,
Despite the obvious body differences, the buggy and baja are the same, so should have had the same results???
Well, I suppose they have different motors which may have swayed the results??
Looked like fun though, where's the Kombi's??? We need mor Kombi's!!!
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SKEWtYpe3
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 05:47 PM |
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cool
its good to see some real tests done rather than the ones u read that make a product look good.
good work guys, fun and learning. good to see the toorak tractors can do it rough 
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Black_math
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 06:15 PM |
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Hehe god old bajas:thumb
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handycam
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 06:32 PM |
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buggys and bajas have awsome wheelbase over 4x4s
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daz67
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 07:11 PM |
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Quote: "The patrol was next;
(1) made the steep hill ok, although missed the course and went the wrong side of a tree on the first attempt
So other drivers for the day, did all that sound about right?"
-----------------------------------------------------
I went Left so I didn't run someone over, not only that the trees are very close on the right.
But to set the record straight, I did return and complete the circuit between the trees on the right.
A very good morning out, shame a few guys pulled out, but for those who came it was fun.
Thanks to Wes for the use of his backyard again.
Oh and Thanks for getting up early to meet us Wes.:P:P
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baybuscamperkid
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 07:40 PM |
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no pajeros? no kombis?
i know we have taken a pajero up slopes like that and around very difficult terrain with no problem, and i have a great artical about the powers of
kombis on steep hills.
Reimagined/Recycled/Upcycled Cool
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daz67
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 08:01 PM |
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Having owned a Pajero and a Kombi come to think of it. There is not a hope in Hell of you getting up the big hill.
But feel free to come and try.
Whoopss better check with Wes first.
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Brad
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| posted on October 27th, 2003 at 08:28 PM |
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Buggy and Baja
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Andy
Just a question,
Despite the obvious body differences, the buggy and baja are the same, so should have had the same results???
Well, I suppose they have different motors which may have swayed the results??
Looked like fun though, where's the Kombi's??? We need mor Kombi's!!!
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In short Wes wrote the points that is the main differance :P:P
Basically the SWB will get more wheel carriage on that particular track as it is a SWB. The baja has a longer wheel base so it is over the hump more
which means it is less twisted which means less wheel travel. Wes can drive much slower than me also which aids in traction. It seems the V6 makes
more low down grunt than my VW engine with a blocked idle circuit. I am also running street tyres not mudders so get less traction.
Anyway the end result is that the Baja made it look easier than the Buggy. I actually have more wheel travel than Wes due to my setup so the LWB does
make a differance. Wes's baja does make it all look pretty easy. Much easier than the Patrol. Although when Mel was driving it seemed like a much
more capable vehicle.
All in all the hilux didn't do real well at all and last I heard Mick was heading home to work on his buggy so he could get up the hill
:thumb:thumb
And the Buggy and Baja kick ass yet again....
From my side of the road I think Wes did a very honest write up. Glade he got out of bed and let us play... :thumb:thumb:thumb
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 09:05 AM |
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first of all, my prediction of what a kombi would do;
(1) no way in the world it would make it up the steep hill. Very few 4wd's make it, trust me it's more difficult than it looks.
(2) A kombi should make the rutted track with a bit of a run up
(3) A kombi would probably roll over on the articulation track.
Andy, the difference between the baja and buggy is about 14.5 inches.
Here's a couple of other cars that have previously tried;
A stock 76 two door range rover (3.5L V8);
(1) couldn't make the steep hill. low 2nd had the power but not enough speed, low 3rd had the speed but not the power
(2) made the rutted track easy
(3) made the articulation track ok, rangies have awesome wheel travel
A modified 76 two door rangie, 2 inch body lift, bigger tyres, more susp travel, stroked 4.3L V8
(1) had the HP to make the steep hill in low 3rd, spinning the wheels the whole way
(2) made the rutted track easy
(3) made the articulation track and even kept the wheels on the ground, awesome to watch.
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Cam
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 09:24 AM |
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Next time you guys should time it. That would be cool
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 02:20 PM |
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Sounds like fun guys, I wish I coulda been there with my old 2L FI kombi!
Kruizin Kol
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daz67
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 02:42 PM |
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HEY COL, LET ME KNOW WHEN YOUR COMING, I HAVEN'T TOWED ANYONE FOR A WHILE!!!!
Not since the last Manx Club run when I towed a Kombi.....
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 02:47 PM |
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I probably wouldn't need towing, more winching to get it back on its wheels!!
Unfortunately, it died a few years ago, and I try to look after the current one a bit better. :thumb
Kruizin Kol
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Andy
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 02:48 PM |
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Wes,
Even though I am a VW fan, and maybe showing my complete lack of 4wd experience here, but wouldn’t any half decent 4WD with similar mods to what you
and Brad have done would come up at least on par? Particularly with diff locks etc??
As for the Kombi, firstly you forget the Kombi driver will be much happier, and have a bigger smile, and a dazed look in there eye’s.
On the course, (1), (2), & (3), with 8 willing passengers their unstoppable!!!
On a serious note, I don’t think tipping over on 3 would be an issue in a Kombi?? Not much weight above the top of the motor/GB as in a Beetle.
I must say though I am truly impressed with the ease your Baja completes the course.
Andy
:thumb
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 03:15 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Andy
Wes,
Even though I am a VW fan, and maybe showing my complete lack of 4wd experience here, but wouldn’t any half decent 4WD with similar mods
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Depends on your definition of similar mods. The patrol is a very tough beast, chunky tyres, raised suspension, and it struggles through the
articulation circuit. Another friend had a hilux with a 3.8L V6 and 33 mud tyres, he tried (1) and slid sideways and got stuck on the trees.
| Quote: | Particularly with
diff locks etc??
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Well me and Brad don't have locked diff's, so it wouldn't be a very fair comparison would it. Sure a tough 4wd will handle the track,
but you gotta spend a lot of money to make it go better than a budget VW offroader. I really don't have many susp mods helping me offroad, my
rear suspension is really basically stock, same with the front, just raised a little. Andrew's manx did the articulation circuit fine and it is
quite stock, swingaxle and all.
| Quote: | On a serious note, I
don’t think tipping over on 3 would be an issue in a Kombi?? Not much weight above the top of the motor/GB as in a Beetle.
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Having seen Graham's kombi stuck on the night nav run on a real bad angle I would say the kombi would be in danger of rolling. The bank on the
night nav run was easy as pie compared to the articulation circuit, and the kombi didn't make that.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 03:25 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Andy
I must say though I am truly impressed with the ease your Baja completes the course.
Andy
:thumb
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I'm glad you enjoyed the ride. :thumb
Basically, a 4WD is easier to drive, and with a bad driver will get most places easier than a VW with a bad driver.
However a VW is very capable with a good driver. Once the going gets real steep and tough, that's when the VW's start getting an advantage
again, but only if your game.
The power to weight ratio and motorbike style can get them amazing places, further than most overweight 4WD's.
Once you go past that point you get into extreme 4WD territory where you see roll overs quite often. Then the tough locked 4WD's excel again.
VW's won't do the rockcrawling stuff either, not the extreme stuff anyway.
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65square
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 03:31 PM |
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don't forgrt that bajas & buggies are way cooler then 4WDs too!!
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Andy
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 03:42 PM |
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I suppose similar mods was a bad choice of words, I mainly meant a lot of effort spend modifying. As for the money spent, it’s definitely easier to
spend a fortune on 4WD’s and I know a number of people who have spent more on a motor/trans than I have doing up Andy (and I spent WAY too much on
that), but I’m sure you could do budget mods if you wanted to.
As for the diff locks, VW have a definite advantage here, you and Brad would be stuck if any ONE wheel off the ground meant no more traction as it
does in a 4WD. A case where 2WD will do better than 4WD.
Must remember to keep Andy off those steep inclines then. As for the night nav run Andy made it to the finish just fine.
VW’s just ruuullle…..
Andy
:thumb
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 03:59 PM |
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Another place a good 4WD will do well is in sloppy mud, because the 4WD helps them steer better.
The range rovers have center diff locks standard, so they need to lift a front and rear to run into problems. The freelander had traction control that
should also act like LSD's but didn't appear to be doing a hell of a lot.
The place where VW's will do better than 4wd's is stockton sand dunes. The power to weight ratio and light weight makes them excellent dune
climbers.
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twoguns
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 04:00 PM |
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hey wes. wot about bajas and buggies with stock style motors. would they succeed on ya course? stock like 1600tp. after all a buggy is only 510kg. i
know where i was in gosford i used to give my buggy heaps up this rock trail that is closed to all bar feet. although i havent made it to the top for
fear of tipping, i did keep trying.
Simply Cruzin'...
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Brad
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 04:10 PM |
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mmmmm
| Quote: |
As for the diff locks, VW have a definite advantage here, you and Brad would be stuck if any ONE wheel off the ground meant no more traction as it
does in a 4WD. A case where 2WD will do better than 4WD.
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A $WD has to get a front and a rear off the ground to loos traction. My buggy is just like half a $WD when it comes to traction.
The open diff in a VW is no better or worse than any 4WD we just keep our wheels on the ground more.
As for a stock buggy. I would happily drive a 1600TP swing axle king pin manx up the track and around teh circuit. So who wants to lend me one to
prove it
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 28th, 2003 at 05:31 PM |
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A 1600tp would do all the tracks fine. My friend took his swingalxe Baja with all terrain tyres and a crappy 1600TP up the real steep hill. It just
takes a little more commitment as he had to keep it flat the whole way, backing off would've had him drop out of his powerband and lose his speed
quickly.
I have the luxury of having too much HP and being able to backoff completely, then tromp it again and have it respond instantly. Ah, sweet EFI.
And if you think any 4WD would make it up the steep hill if the driver was crazy enough, you'd be wrong. Brad tried it in his hilux and failed,
and he had some serious momentum.
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Brad
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| posted on October 30th, 2003 at 01:33 PM |
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mmm
Yes I must say the Hilux did SUX ... Now if only my Buggy could tow a car trailer and carry 1000kg in teh back I would have no need for such a
vehicle....
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on October 30th, 2003 at 03:33 PM |
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Brad, that's why you need a kombi
On the topic of lockers, I don't believe that a manx needs one. Sure it would be nice, but not necessary, because a manx is so much heavier at
the rear than the front that it just lifts a front wheel and keeps both rears planted. :thumb No, I've never owned one, but I did see them in
action in the hills behind the beach, and I was paying close attention. 
The buggy below wasn't going fast, and demonstrates quite nicely what I'm saying. Sorry about the picture quality, it was quite dark at the
time and I've had to manipulate the image to lighten it up.
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