| [ Total Views: 773 | Total Replies: 27 | Thread Id: 17455 ] |
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 Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 6th, 2004 at 01:37 PM |
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I keep breaking rocker washers / retainers
Ladies and gents,
I have seen an alarming trend on my motor recently (mostly alarming becuase it has happened twice, and only by pure chance have I been close enough to
home to get a tow).
First thing that happened was that the spring washer on the inlet rocker to #3 (at the back on the left) cylinder broke. I only recovered half of it -
I'm hoping (and praying) that the other half has washed down to my deep sump and will happily stay there until my next rebuild (hopefully in the
distant future). I picked this up at a service, and simply replaced the spring washer with a spare from a spare set of rocker gear I have.
Second, last night at about 1am, it broke the retaining clip on the inlet rocker to #3 cylinder (scared me - thought I had dropped a valve). I will
replace this one tonight, but in the meantime I'm curious to know if I should be chasing some stronger rocker gear and shafts ?
The motor is an 1835 (yeah I know, blowby and all ), only about 10 or
11,000kms old. Its got 044 (I think) heads with larger, stainless valves and high strength single springs. We set compression at 8.5 :1 (daily driver
in WA). Its running a HSC #2 cam (a reground stock cam). Its also got a counterweighted crank, fully balanced bottom end, twin kadrons. I dont run it
past 6000rpm, and its only seen that four or five times - theres not point with the cam / carby combination its got it stops pulling at 5200 or so.
The rocker gear is bog stock 2nd hand standard. I service it myself and tappet clearances are set to 6 thou.
Is 5500 - 6000rpm too much for standard rocker gear ?
Is this a known problem ?
If so, what are my options to get some stronger gear in there that wont break ?
Thanks in advance for all of your help !
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 Bizarre
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| posted on January 6th, 2004 at 02:14 PM |
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Is your rocker geometry all ok??
Are you getting valve bind??
There was someone with the Ureka(sp?) that was busting valve springs a couple of months ago.
Think his problem was springs in upside down??
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 6th, 2004 at 02:31 PM |
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How do I check the geometry ? What should it be ?
I had thought that it was something I didnt have to worry about, seeing as I dont have ratio rockers and they are stock size valves.
I'm definetely not getting spring bind.
Yeah, I read that post - however I'm breaking the spring washers and retaining clips that hold the rockers in place on the shaft.
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lugnuts
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| posted on January 6th, 2004 at 02:51 PM |
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Try this link dude http://1800vw.bizhosting.com/solid_rocker_shaft.html and http://1800vw.bizhosting.com/qa_rockerslap.htm dunno if it applies to you :thumb |
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 6th, 2004 at 03:02 PM |
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So it sounds like I am up to change over to solid bolt up rocker shafts, yes ?
Anyone know what these are worth in Australia, and a reputable supplier ?
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 6th, 2004 at 03:11 PM |
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Rocker geometry really only comes into it when you are not getting even movement of the rocker.
This can be caused by
* increased lift
*the heads have been really fly cut and are sitting further into the head
"Proper length ensures that at "half lift" the rocker arm is pushing the valve straight in. If "rocker geometry" is off, the
valve will be pushed up or down, and this results in valve guide wear. " - thank you AC.net
The link Lug posted seems to be on the money though
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 6th, 2004 at 03:14 PM |
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http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=ECV0016&c...
$40 US
I guess you are talking $100 Aus
Any of the sponsors "should" carry them
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 6th, 2004 at 03:17 PM |
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I guess thats not bad - at least it shouldnt destroy the bank account to keep this thing reliable. Although I should be putting new rockers on the new
shaft shouldnt I ?
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 6th, 2004 at 03:25 PM |
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Dont "think" so
It is more a wasker / side movement thing.
Dont think it is a "rocker" thing not working.
Futue te ipsum!!!
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BiX
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| posted on January 6th, 2004 at 04:34 PM |
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I wouldn't just put on new rockers. If ur breaking clips they MUST be a reason for it. I would check geo etc first.
With regards to new rockers, i simply had mine tapped on the ends for bolts and then cut alum tube as a spacer for the middle. alot cheaper than new
rockers. Just use shims to set the rockers both sideways and also shims to det the height of the shaft (geometery). |
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 6th, 2004 at 05:57 PM |
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Sorry guys - I think you misunderstood why I was suggesting to put new rockers on the new shafts - I was more thinking about the old worn rockers
possibly wearing the new shafts out faster.
BiX - I like your idea. And the joy of this one is that I can actually get it done on the cheap as we have a big machine shop at work and I can
squeeze in a couple of foreigners
I dont think I will use aluminium for the spacers though. I will probably use a plain carbon steel so that the spacers expand at an identical rate to
the rocker shaft, thus ensuring the rocker sideplay doesnt alter as the temp increases.
Mind if I ask where you ended up getting the shim washers from to set the side play of the rockers ?
How long did you make your spacers ?
Thanks for the idea !!
Now just to get a cheap 2nd hand pair of rocker shafts and start measuring......
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BiX
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| posted on January 6th, 2004 at 07:54 PM |
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got the spacers from leons motor's, but any vw or even mechanic would carry them i assume. I measured the distance between the rockers and then
cut to length. |
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 7th, 2004 at 02:29 PM |
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FIXED. Well, back to original at any rate, so I am back on the road.
Unfortunately, I found out that the wavy washer on #3 inlet rocker had also broken, and as I couldnt find it in the rocker cover, I can only assume
that it has migrated to the sump where it can live with the other half a washer that went down there last time this happened !!!!:cry:cry:cry
I hope they dont cause any trouble....
In the mean time I have decided to lower my self imposed rev limiter (controlled by right foot ) to about 4800 instead of 6000 where I had it before. I will also progress along the track of trying to find some decent
rocker gear and shafts. While I'm at it I might as well go to swivel foot adjusters and 1.25 ratio rockers as well. I guess we will see what
turns up.....
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 7th, 2004 at 04:18 PM |
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find yourself some good originals, just set them up right. Obviously Stan set mine up, ,they're original and have no probs with the revs. Give
him a call to find out what he does !(does this with any motor that has higher valve spring loading) you will be suprised how simple it is to fix
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 7th, 2004 at 04:41 PM |
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So Stan uses standard rocker shafts and rockers on his steroids motors then ?
I'll have to call him. I dont suppose you know if he still uses the spring washers ? I have had advice just to shim and utilise the standard
retaining clips.
You've already said your motor runs to 7500 on up shifts....... I've never had mine past 6200rpm..... hmmmm.
Is there any way to measure the geometry of the rocker or is it just by eye ?
I checked to ensure the adjuster was hitting the valve stem just off center and all of them are. I dont have any shims under the pedestals - is this
normal for standard length pushrods and stock rockers ?
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 7th, 2004 at 09:45 PM |
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Doug, pobjoy motors use standard shafts and rockers, this includes base 1916, steroids 1916, strokers, hillclimb etc etc ..
You would need to call him to discuss what he does :thumbut
Sorry I can't help, at least he can tell you what to do without spending the $$
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 24th, 2004 at 10:51 PM |
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So how did you go with this problem Doug, all fixed ?
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Blue65
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| posted on January 24th, 2004 at 11:19 PM |
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Valve Heavy Duty Springs
Hello,
I think the same thing has been happening to my engine. And the mechanic said that its because I was using super heavy duty (racing) springs. They
were simply too strong for my setup.
Are you using heavy duty springs?
______________________
Owner of a 1964 VW Beetle, 1641cc engine, etc..
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 28th, 2004 at 05:48 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
So how did you go with this problem Doug, all fixed ?
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????????
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 29th, 2004 at 10:19 AM |
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Sorry, I only read this forum from work - can be hard to read everything all at once.
I've still only got the standard gear on the motor, limiting myself to about 4750rpm while its like this.
I decided to make a set of bolt up shafts, mainly because I am cheap and think they are a more solid solution. Only problem is that I'm having
the machine work done at work by a mate as a foreigner, so it has to fit in with all the real work. Hopefully should have the shafts and spacers done
in a week or two, then I can get them back on the engine.
Does anyone know of anywhere that carries the shims in different thicknesses ? All the standard shims are 40 thou (1mm) thick. To all me to shim it to
the right clearance, I'll need different thicknesses.
I know Aircooled.net and cb performance sells them in the states, but I'd rather not have to get stugg from the states if I can source them
locally....
Any ideas people ?
Thanks or the interest.
Cheers,
Doug
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70AutoStik
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| posted on January 30th, 2004 at 12:42 AM |
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I'm afraid, unless you're made of money, you should get a solid rocker shaft kit from the states...
This is not a reflection on anyone in Oz; we simply don't have the market to bring prices down low enough. If you don't think you can
follow the instructions provided [no offence, but you'd have to be so thick we'd wonder what you're doing driving a VW,] there are some
really good Oz mechanics that'll do it for you: But they're in business to make a living (surprise, surprise,) and it takes a while.
Aircooled.net cost a little more (but I've yet to have a quality problem with them - pretty rare for 'mericans,) but they will use Post
(which allows up to AU$999 before tax and duty apply - not relevant if the total is below AU$250,) and are rather helpful with their instruction.
- I hope no-one considers this blasphemous, but they're almost the modern "Berg."
If you were to only require this item, CBPerformance.com might be a lot cheaper, and most of their stuff is OK, but their product may turn out to be
"Empi" (Empi ceased to exist more than 30 years ago; it's likely to be cheap Taiwanese cr@& under that name.)
As for CIP1.com and their ilk: Dream about the cheap prices you see in the mags, their product is the worst chinese and taiwanese rubbish, and they
consider three months to be a good delivery time at airmail rates. (Don't listen to the guys who got lucky - there's 10 of us real people,
at least, to each of them.) Oh, and don't expect "Customer Support" from such...
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 30th, 2004 at 10:12 AM |
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Maybe I've been misunderstood - I'm MAKING a set of bolt up shafts (its not rocket science, as BiX said), and having the machine work done
for free at work.
All I was chasing was the different thickness washers to set the side play of the rockers. I've no problem with the price of Aircooled.net or CB
performance ($11 US for a full set of 8 of 3 different thicknesses each (ie 24 in total)), just that I was hoping to find somewhere local to get them
from so I didnt have to wait too long.
I cant see any reason why these home made ones shouldnt work as well as any of the aftermarket ones. When I get them finished, I will post pictures
and drawings of what I've done, so that if anyone wanted to make their own they can.
Time will tell.
Cheers,
Doug
By the way, I couldnt find anyone in Perth that stocked solid rocker kits ! Though I'm sure they are easy to get in the east.....
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 30th, 2004 at 11:24 AM |
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Did you phone Stan ?
May save some work. Just a thought .
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 30th, 2004 at 02:13 PM |
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I tried to find his number, but couldnt.
At any rate, I have a nice little project now to keep me occupied for a while, so I think I will go through with it.
Ta for all the advice - now I am well informed
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 30th, 2004 at 04:10 PM |
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maybe you could make and sell them :o
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70AutoStik
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| posted on February 1st, 2004 at 12:24 AM |
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Ah, if you're making them, I'll try to find the time to measure mine up and post you the figures. But you'd be better off making them
like the old Berg ones, which had a tubular spacer in the middle, instead of a wider part of the shaft - it's a lot easier to set up accurately
that way.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on February 1st, 2004 at 07:09 AM |
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No, I don't need them, my setup as per Stan has no probs :thumb
Just though if you were doing one, might as well do 10
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VWCOOL
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| posted on February 1st, 2004 at 08:42 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Doug Sweetman
I tried to find his number, but couldnt.
At any rate, I have a nice little project now to keep me occupied for a while, so I think I will go through with it.
Ta for all the advice - now I am well
informed
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Go to http://www.whitepages.com.au
Type in: Stan Pobjoy's Racing Engineering Pty Ltd
Select 'regional' and 'business/govt'
Oh, and 'New South Wales...'
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on February 4th, 2004 at 11:38 AM |
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ps I didnt try too hard
I'm sure the standard set ups would work alot better with brand new spring washers and retainers. After pulling another set of 2nd hand rockers
apart its incredible the difference in wear you see on the components.
I'll see how the ones I'm making now turn out. They do have the tubular spacer in the middle, all I need to find now is a source of shims in
the right size to set side play.
70AutoStik - do you loktite your end bolts ? and what side play do you set them up to ?
Once I've got them on the car I'll post drawings of the set up for whoever wants to copy them.
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