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 karmannghia60
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| posted on January 19th, 2004 at 04:03 PM |
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Bigger valves is better? Maybe not
I am getting my 1835 heads rebuilt. I spoke to couple of people about the advantages of having bigger valves put in. As you expect, nearly everyone
had a different opinion. One said its not recommended because most likely they don't get the seats right. One said there is no point unless you
go with a mild/wild cam. One said no point at all, he is running 2.1 stroker using standard valves and he loves it. But he also mentioned something
quite interesting. He reckons that the drag guys are now experementing with smaller valves not bigger ones. Apparentley smaller ones create better
airflow (kind of a compressed airflow aka turbo) and create more power. I thought that is quite a different view from the norm
Raf
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 Bizarre
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| posted on January 19th, 2004 at 04:24 PM |
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Raf
this is what you put down as experience and what seperates the great from the dog engine builders.
An example is the 1300 twin port motor that came out in later years.
It had small valve heads and yes they flow really sweet. I had a drive of one the other day and you wouldnt pick it as a 1300!
As for your motor - what cam, carbs and exhaust are you running.
My opinion ( :o ) is if you are running heater boxes stay with stock valve heads
You can get 40/35 put in an 040 head and that will flow better but you have to be able to pull the gas with a bigger cam and you have to feed it with
carbs ( Webers - not the kads ) and you have to be able to exhaust properly ( not heater boxes and pea shooters )
What sort of heads are you looking at?? and what size valves are you thinking of???
Yes you can run a stroker with stock heads BUT you could make HEAPS more top end power with an expensive set of decent heads. You can still have HEAPS
of torque and FUN with the stockers though
Barry
Futue te ipsum!!!
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karmannghia60
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| posted on January 19th, 2004 at 04:31 PM |
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Its the standard cam. I do have a mild one but don't want to split the case at this stage. I will be running 40IDFs or 40DRLAs. And I will be
running heater boxes. How does heater boxes affect it compared to J pipes?
Raf
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 20th, 2004 at 08:44 AM |
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2 ways Raf
First they are stock diameter and "can" be restrictive in flow.
Some people (Berg for example) make a larger dia heater box. They are expensive though.
Secondly the heater box retains heat and can lead to cracked heads by not being able to disapate the heat.
This is why J tubes were invented.
Nice cheap solution to the problem of bib motors and exhausts
Futue te ipsum!!!
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lugnuts
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| posted on January 20th, 2004 at 04:22 PM |
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The 40 drlas are to big i think you should sell them to me. |
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70AutoStik
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| posted on January 20th, 2004 at 08:43 PM |
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Larger valves in a stock head won't give you much without extensive welding and porting. with stock cam you'll still end up with less power
throughout the rev range. Having the valve guides topped, running heavy-duty or dual springs and fitting high-lift rockers would be a far better
proposition at this stage. When you're ready for the larger valves, ie; when you're running more than 1900cc and/or your cam produces peak
power above 5000rpm, you really should consider the 044s as a starting point.
You might also find the carbs mentioned won't work too well with your combo.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 20th, 2004 at 09:16 PM |
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Why do you need dual valve springs ?
Do you really think a stock cam will give valve bounce :jesus I don't think so.
ratio rockers................... no use opening the valve more if you don't have the duration.
Really an 1835cc should not be running a stock cam.
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Andy42
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| posted on January 20th, 2004 at 09:25 PM |
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Well I have got to admit I am new to vw motors but have built many drag V8s and it was more important to get everything to match. Basically what craig
was getting at I think. Bigger is not always better.
.
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karmannghia60
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| posted on January 21st, 2004 at 08:58 AM |
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So what you are saying, for an 1835 with dual 40 DRLAs and heaterboxes, I am better off with a mild cam, ratio rockers and standard valve?
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 21st, 2004 at 10:59 AM |
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Yep - NOT that i know but from the info i have scavenged that would be my guess.
You "might" consider 40/35's instead of 35/32's (stock) in some 040 (stock) heads but i dunno if i would. Extra money and
stuff.
You said you dont want to split the case as it is a standard cam there.
A stock cam will accept 1.4 ratios and this is good. Dunno if i would waste the money on 1.25's. Ratios are not cheap.
The cheapest i have seen is like $400 a set.
By the way - what sort of crank have you got in there. If it is a standard cam is it a stock crank.
Dont want to wake the engine up too much if it isnt a counter weighted one.
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Cam
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| posted on January 21st, 2004 at 11:13 AM |
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Depends what you're using the motor really. If it's going to be a daily driver, you don't want everything dig. Particularly on a street
engine where figures really mean nothing. Ultimately, it's important to match it with everything your motor currently has, to compliment the
other parts and therefore make the best sort of power for the job. With what you mention you already have, I'd say stick with stock valves.
They'll do the job beautifully and you'll have nice smooth power, which is most important for daily use. Perhaps some 1:1 ratio rockers?!?!
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karmannghia60
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| posted on January 21st, 2004 at 01:41 PM |
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Yep, it will be a daily driver. It has stock crank as far as I know. I know nothing about ratio rockers, why is 1:25 bad or not worth it? Being that
it will be an 1835 daily driver (city mainly not even highways) with twin 40 DRLAs and stock everything, what ratios would work with it?
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 21st, 2004 at 01:56 PM |
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http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=ECV0008&c...
1.25 Scat $250 US = @ 75c = $333 Aus + 15% duty + 10% GST = $420 Aus + shipping
1.4 Scat $250 US
1.4 budget $190 US
For over $500 delivered get the most you can.
1.25 over stock 1.1's just not worth it for that sort of money.
Raf
have a read here
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/mods.htm
and
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/t1hpeng.htm
Those ponies start to get expensive.
Where do you stop????
Futue te ipsum!!!
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karmannghia60
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| posted on January 21st, 2004 at 03:55 PM |
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You are not wrong Barry, I have a big hole in my back pocket which is bound to get bigger, bought the engine for $1k to discover it was stuffed. New
P&Cs cost me $600, 6v 200mm flywheel and clutch $450, reco. heads $300, dual 40 DRLAs $600. So nearly $3k so far and still have to sort out
ratios & exhaust :jesus
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 21st, 2004 at 03:57 PM |
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Then stock heads and rockers it is!!!
That is what i have!
For the exhaust a Thunderbird header and a trip to Mr Muffler to chop up the muffler and get it tucked up underneath
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 21st, 2004 at 04:08 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by karmannghia60
You are not wrong Barry, I have a big hole in my back pocket which is bound to get bigger, bought the engine for $1k to discover it was stuffed. New
P&Cs cost me $600, 6v 200mm flywheel and clutch $450, reco. heads $300, dual 40 DRLAs $600. So nearly $3k so far and still have to sort out
ratios & exhaust :jesus
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What a bummer  That's why 10 years ago I decided to always by new.
With valve lift, it is proportionate to valve size. Lift should be a % of the valve diameter. If you go over this % then you are openning the valve to
far and you are gaining no benefit. With standard 040 valves 1.4 ratio rockers will open the valve more than what is needed. The problem you will then
have is that you are putting additional strain on your pushrods! Then you will spend money on Chrom Moly pushrods all to fix a problem that should not
of occured !
Like Andy said , its all about the combo :thumb
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karmannghia60
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| posted on January 23rd, 2004 at 08:27 AM |
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One more question, if I decide to go the full hog (mild cam, balanced crank, ratio rockers, twin 40DRLAs or 40IDFs, 009 dizzy), what valve size would
be better in this case? 40x32 or 40x35.5?
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 23rd, 2004 at 09:40 AM |
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"Install Ratio Rocker Arms: 1-2 hour installation time. If you can adjust valves, you can install these. They MUST be used with shorter pushrods.
We recommend 1.4 rockers (which DO work on stock engines). 1.25 rockers give you almost no gain for your work; waste of effort. 1.25's work well
with some high performance cam shafts but you have to know what you're doing! 1.4's will really wake up a stock engine, especially if
it's a dual port, and if you have additional carburetion. Replace your valve cover gaskets at the same time. If you have problems with leaky
valve covers, make sure that you use genuine VW valve covers and bails." - from John C at AC.net
Craig - why do people (not just ACnet) recomend putting 1.4's on a stocker as a hot up??
It certainly be recommended to me with my cam and my stock heads????
Raf
There is no simple answer. You will get many. Hot Rod Matt has 40/35 040's in his 1776 and i think you will find 2 Guns will as well. Both these
were CBB based motors.
I have 35/32.
I think Jak was/is 040 and 40/35
Jak was definitely running J pipes and i dont
Dont know about matt???
On the last dyno day we were all in the mid 60's.
Matt runs Kads.
I run IDF's
IF you have money then i think i would go for 040 and 40/35
Do it and have an experienced answer 
Futue te ipsum!!!
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karmannghia60
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| posted on January 23rd, 2004 at 10:30 AM |
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Last question, promise. I can get the heads I have now reco (ie replace guides) for between $200 & $240. While I can get full reco ones from the
US (I will be there next week) including new 40x32 valves, new 3 angle seats and new silicon bronze valve guides for about $300. The later option
looks better value, what do you think?
Thanks a lot
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on January 23rd, 2004 at 10:36 AM |
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| Quote: |
There is no simple answer. You will get many. Hot Rod Matt has 40/35 040's in his 1776 and i think you will find 2 Guns will as well. Both these
were CBB based motors.
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My heads were done for the bigger valves by someone else some time ago.
2guns uses standard valve sizes but they have been reshaped and swirl finished around the stem and the back surface. The porting job on his heads is
awesome and flows beautifully.
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 23rd, 2004 at 10:43 AM |
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Raf
i just like blabbing so i will answer
The US ones DO sound like good value BUT.......
They also sound like 041's which were big inlet and stock exhaust.
The head casting was different and didnt cool as well.
Cant get the 35 exhaust in these???
Either way that is an awsome price.
Can hardly buy new stock heads in US $ for $300
If they were 040 castings i would buy them
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 23rd, 2004 at 01:08 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by blue74l
"Install Ratio Rocker Arms: 1-2 hour installation time. If you can adjust valves, you can install these. They MUST be used with shorter pushrods.
We recommend 1.4 rockers (which DO work on stock engines). 1.25 rockers give you almost no gain for your work; waste of effort. 1.25's work well
with some high performance cam shafts but you have to know what you're doing! 1.4's will really wake up a stock engine, especially if
it's a dual port, and if you have additional carburetion. Replace your valve cover gaskets at the same time. If you have problems with leaky
valve covers, make sure that you use genuine VW valve covers and bails." - from John C at AC.net
Craig - why do people (not just ACnet) recomend putting 1.4's on a stocker as a hot up??
It certainly be recommended to me with my cam and my stock heads????
Do it and have an experienced answer
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I guess you will read so many varied opinions, and each to their own in which ones you want to beleive .:thumb
I remember reading about a fantastic "black box" , that would do wonders to my holden, written by Peter Brock, it was called a
"polariser" !!
Barry I guess we can agree to disagree about using 1.4 ratio's on a stock cam/stock head combo.
I would ask, for my learning benefit what do you think/read should be
the overall lift for a standard size valve. What lift would be to much ???
Also what is the increased valve spring load ?
Do you loose HP with this added load ?
How much shorter do the Pushrods need to be ?
Do you need to fit chromoly pushrods?
what will this cost ?
What is the added HP to the stock motor ?
I have read that the ratio rockers will increase a standard 1600 tp motor's Hp by 2-3hp, this same book also said you can get over 100hp from a
1600 ??!!
Not saying your wrong Barry, I just dont' see the benefit on this combo, but maybe you can clarify for me the above points.
:thumb
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karmannghia60
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| posted on January 23rd, 2004 at 01:13 PM |
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Blab as much as you like Barry, I am getting a lot out of it. Looks like I will go for the US heads. I just have to struggle with airport security
& customs
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 23rd, 2004 at 02:45 PM |
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Craig
the whole problem i have is i now only have 2 VW cars
I have the Type 4 Kombi and the beetle
I have owned and worked on
1200 stock , 1300 stock , 1600 stock Progressive IDF same with 1776 with cam and head work
I should have started when i was 17 instead of all the other stuff i did. I would have a lot more motors under my belt.
After the 90.5 Vs 94 i find the 1.4 arguement a close second. Probabally not as much talked about here.
Bit like the 040 Vs 041 Vs 044
Oh - i wish i had built/driven more motors and cars!!!
Oh well - maybe by the time i am 85 i will have a lot of info but everyone will say - "what a grumpy old fart!"
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 23rd, 2004 at 03:58 PM |
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That's cool Barry, I was not looking for and arguement, just some info I may not have been exposed too.:thumb
Piston size will always be a debate because it is influenced by crank stroke.
But the opening of a valve will always reach a point where it is no use opening it any more. If you want more benefits you then need to go a larger
valve, you can then increase the lift to the max advantage of this valve and so on, you then move onto multivalve heads etc.
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lugnuts
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| posted on January 24th, 2004 at 04:49 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by karmannghia60
Last question, promise. I can get the heads I have now reco (ie replace guides) for between $200 & $240. While I can get full reco ones from the
US (I will be there next week) including new 40x32 valves, new 3 angle seats and new silicon bronze valve guides for about $300. The later option
looks better value, what do you think?
Thanks a lot
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If your goin to the US of A bring these back with you,there brand new 100% better than yank recons, http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=77 and
there only $250AUD :thumb |
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karmannghia60
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| posted on January 25th, 2004 at 01:53 PM |
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This price is of each bare head (no springs, no valves, no guides nor seats) + delivery. I am getting the PAIR complete ready to bolt one for $300
delivered
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karmannghia60
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| posted on January 29th, 2004 at 07:01 AM |
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One more thing, do I need to change the push rods if I use 1.4 ratios?
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 29th, 2004 at 02:08 PM |
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"Proper length ensures that at "half lift" the rocker arm is pushing the valve straight in. If "rocker geometry" is off, the
valve will be pushed up or down, and this results in valve guide wear. Get it right! This is one of the most intricate parts of engine building.
Cutting and assembling your pushrods is a real pain (I hate it). For assembly purposes, you need an adjustable pushrod to have any hope of achieving
optimal rocker geometry. You use the adjustable pushrod to cut your chromoly pushrods to the desired length then tap the ends in using a hammer and
two old lifters (to keep from screwing up the ends of the pushrods). Sometimes, depending on the pushrod brand, they have to be drilled out to match
the pushrod ends! Sound arduous? Well it is, but guess what!? Aircooled.Net offers the service of cutting and assembling your pushrods, saving you the
do-it-yourself grief!" - from ACnet
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 29th, 2004 at 02:49 PM |
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MMMMMM gets back to my point, why bother on a stock head and stock cam combo. All this headache for what ????
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