| [ Total Views: 2171 | Total Replies: 37 | Thread Id: 30321 ] |
| Pages: 1 2 |
|
|
 VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on October 20th, 2004 at 11:42 AM |
|
|
IDF style throttle bodies
I am considering using EFI (either Delco, or more likely Microtech) on my next engine. I will use two IDF-style TBs, Commodore/Bosch injectors with a
Weber-style linkage... does anyone have ideas where I can start looking for TBs?
[Edited on 20-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
56astro
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1772
Threads: 74
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: The Nambucca
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Pobjoy Powered with twin ignition & soon to be EFI'd
|
| posted on October 20th, 2004 at 12:27 PM |
|
|
Here is a start!
There are some good links from these sites as well. From what I've learnt about EFI the single throttle body design is better for tune-ability. quad
throttle bodies do work, but better vacuum signals with single TB and plenum.
http://www.cevw.com/
http://www.carburetion.com/index.htm
http://www.injectionperfection.com/
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/
http://www.kinsler.com/
http://www.sandrail.com/millerfi/
http://www.redlineweber.com/
http://www.speed-technology.com/
http://carcraftinc.com/turbo.htm
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa |
|
|
VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on October 20th, 2004 at 12:51 PM |
|
|
thanks for that. I'm investigating a remote-mounted IAC pumbed to the two IDF throttle bodies - all GM (probably Camira) stuff tuned using Kalmaker
on a double-plugger. Would prefer dual TBs rather than one for airflow/power... although I do have a Camira/Bosch TB here I could play with... I think
it's about 60mm... The cam I will use (I think you know from who...) gives good steady idle vacuum.
[Edited on 20-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
56astro
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1772
Threads: 74
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: The Nambucca
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Pobjoy Powered with twin ignition & soon to be EFI'd
|
| posted on October 20th, 2004 at 10:42 PM |
|
|
It has been said that this intake design is pretty close to ideal.
The price is a killer though. Far cheaper to calculate the figures and design your own.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
|
|
|
speedster356
A.k.a.: Peter Mcleod
Custom Title Time!
Plastic not Classic Racing
Posts: 1624
Threads: 256
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: CHRIST church NZ
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Producing boost again in NZ
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 07:08 AM |
|
|
Have a look at the Suzuki Hyabusa TBs. They are flanged the same as Webers (IDFs I think) A mate has a set on his Alfa powered hot rod. They generally
come with injectors and perform well. Not sure of throttle size ? Check ebay for secondhand ones.
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
|
|
|
56astro
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1772
Threads: 74
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: The Nambucca
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Pobjoy Powered with twin ignition & soon to be EFI'd
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 08:14 AM |
|
|
| Quote: |
Electronic fuel injection system, fed by 46mm throttle bodies and ram air intake with large volume airbox
|
I think it still uses a plenum ("air box") as this gives the ECU the signals it needs to run efficiently/properly.
In any event - 4 x 46mm TBs :bounce
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
|
|
|
 vw54
Super Administrator
Always Waiting 4 Friday
Posts: 16723
Threads: 378
Registered: August 26th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sunny Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Oval resto ongoing
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 08:39 AM |
|
|
Glenn
Vintage has some IDA throttle bodies 50mm available
|
|
|
VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 11:13 AM |
|
|
Thanks Dave, but I want to run IDF style as the manifolds are straighter and work better, IMO
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 11:17 AM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
It has been said that this intake design is pretty close to ideal.
The price is a killer though. Far cheaper to calculate the figures and design your own.
|
Is that yours, Astro?
Ahhh... maybe not. US tail lights.
Hope it isn't yours.... because I reckon that, from an engineering and drivability point of view, looks silly. Throttle response would be disgusting
with such a large total plenum volume and distance from butterfly to port and it would be an absolute bitch to tune for transients at low throttle
openings and and and.. I think I'll stick to IDF TBs thanks!
[Edited on 21-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
56astro
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1772
Threads: 74
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: The Nambucca
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Pobjoy Powered with twin ignition & soon to be EFI'd
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 11:52 AM |
|
|
This is what an FI guru on STF wrote about this set-up:
| Quote: |
Thats a very smartly designed plenum. Very nice solution. The mini plenums at each end of the center, though not fully conducive to velocity, are very
conducive to taming knuckles of turbulence from turning the 90 degree. Nice compromise decision. It may actually be close to spot on depending on the
engine size. Its really hard to tell from the photo. I would say its close to 2.0 liters. The 1.7 D-jet...which is excellntly sized, is right at 1
liter for the plenum and about 400 cc per runner...so the whole set up is right around 1.6+ liter.
|
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
|
|
|
VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 12:21 PM |
|
|
lol... yeah, 'conducive' and 'knuckles of turbluence'... :blah Stuff that s*it! If they'd designed it properly, they wouldn't HAVE 'knuckles
of turbulence!!! Thanks for the pic, Astro, but for a variety of reasons I have to say that is WAAY off a good design... it's a pile of parts!
[Edited on 21-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
56astro
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1772
Threads: 74
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: The Nambucca
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Pobjoy Powered with twin ignition & soon to be EFI'd
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 01:41 PM |
|
|
I agree, that design is not conducive to good air flow from TB to valves.
Because of the design of the flat-4 any single TB induction system will be compromise.
I like the std VW twin port FI castings that CB sell, but not sure of the internal dia. If they made a similar one without 1-into-2 at the end, I
think they would be real winner.
Designing a plenum for a straight 4-6 or V6-8 engine is going to be easy compared to one for a v-dub. But still, even the WRX STi still has a plenum
system in preference to individual throttle bodies.
What's the engine going into?
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
|
|
|
VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 02:34 PM |
|
|
The engine is a new one for my Beetle - Oval/IRS etc etc
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 02:45 PM |
|
|
Hey guys,
I have an subaru EJ25 in my buggy.
At the mo I am thinking about how to get it ready for the drags.
It is the dohc motor, so the heads flow big standard so i am told. It puts out 165hp standard. I am looking for around 225hp.
before anyone suggests it, I am not interested in a turbo.
1. the car has to be street registered (keeping wife happy) and it can't be with a turbo with that much capacity.
2. I want to run all motor class and that means no turbo and no nitrous.
What i am trying to figure out is whether to go to quad throttle bodies (big $$$) or stay with the standard intake manifold. Guys in the states say it
is very efficient, but surely 4 throttle bodies would be better? I know it would need a plenum, but I will figure that later.
Any thoughts?
|
|
|
VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 03:04 PM |
|
|
nah, for WOT plenum and TBs don't matter. Plant 'n go! I'm looking for crisp, on-street and on-track throttle response
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 03:37 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
nah, for WOT plenum and TBs don't matter. Plant 'n go! I'm looking for crisp, on-street and on-track throttle response
|
What's "WOT" ?
|
|
|
56astro
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1772
Threads: 74
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: The Nambucca
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Pobjoy Powered with twin ignition & soon to be EFI'd
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 05:07 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
nah, for WOT plenum and TBs don't matter. Plant 'n go! I'm looking for crisp, on-street and on-track throttle response
|
So how will the ECU know what the MAP is?
Or is it not important?
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 05:28 PM |
|
|
WHATS "WOT"?
|
|
|
56astro
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1772
Threads: 74
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: The Nambucca
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Pobjoy Powered with twin ignition & soon to be EFI'd
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 05:57 PM |
|
|
I think "waste of time"
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
|
|
|
lulu94
A.k.a.: Danielle
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 449
Threads: 50
Registered: December 27th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Alice Springs
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: What!! 2 more(hehe i draged ryan over to the dark side)
|
| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 11:29 PM |
|
|
ryan here on danielles nick,
just onto the quad TB vs. single, the quads will give more response as they will be near the ports etc.
and with any decent aftermarket ECU, the load input should be able to be set to work off throttle position rather than MAP.
they do this alot when injecting non turbo big ported rotors, as they have a very erratic vacuum signal at idle.
1968 pearl white beetle:kiss
1600 engine 
soon to be supercharged 
1970 and 72 Squarebacks 70 soon to be rotor powered |
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on October 22nd, 2004 at 03:21 PM |
|
|
any ideas for a factory set of TBs I could adapt, or would I need to buy aftermarket jobbies?
|
|
|
ratty 63
A.k.a.: Rossco
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1083
Threads: 74
Registered: October 1st, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast, Qld
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Just cured my shed envy! 
|
| posted on October 22nd, 2004 at 02:27 PM |
|
|
WOT = Wide Open Throttle
Something that I noticed whilst doing the research for my EFI system (Delco/Kalmaker with JE Camira components) is that the factory VW EFI on the Type
I engine does not use a Plenum chamber.
It is generally accepted that Plenum chambers are used to dampen pulses in the intake vacuum at low revs/idle. This helps to stabalise the MAP signal
to the ECU. Some of the aftermarket ECU's can be told to ignore the MAP signal at certain revs, effectivly making a plenum chamber unnecessary.
I haven't used a plenum chamber on my system, so all I had to do was desensitise the acceleration and deceleration enrichment (triggered by changes
in the vac signal) and all it all worked using a MAP sensor right down to an idle. I could have also made the ECU ignore the MAP signal at an idle,
but the manufacturers of my ECU reckon that you almost need a V8 supercar spec cam to warrent doing this!
Of course, if you do decided to go with twin TB's, you will still have the issue of unbalanced linkages, just like you do with twin carbs....
Make sure that the TB's are not too big, as this can cause the engine to have a 'boggy' feel to it when you open the throttle. One of my friends
is currently running a TB from a 4.0 litre Falcon on his Microtec injected 2 litre type III, and it suffers from this issue. He is just about to
change the TB to one from a Hyundai or similar vehicle to see if this is the only cause of this problem...should know soon. Exactly how to define
'too big' is a tricky one though!
Connecting the IAC and MAP sensor on twin TB's is not a problem. The map sensor is connected by running a balance hose between the TB's and fitting
the MAP sensor in the middle.
Of course, twin TB's look great! I would still attempt to fit a single air cleaner to the system though, as I have read plenty of times that this
helps throttle response too....
....I just thought of something, when running twin TB's, could you run the balance hose from each of the TB's to a sealed box, then run the MAP
sensor from that box. The box would act like a Plenum Chamber wouldn't it? Might help someone out if they are having problems where vac signal
fluctuation is causing problems on a twin TB set-up....
Just make sure that you ECU can do everything that you are likely to need it to do - this will be your limitation....
R 
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on October 22nd, 2004 at 03:16 PM |
|
|
could you post a pic of your setup?
what ECU are you running?
|
|
|
ratty 63
A.k.a.: Rossco
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1083
Threads: 74
Registered: October 1st, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast, Qld
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Just cured my shed envy!
|
| posted on October 22nd, 2004 at 03:45 PM |
|
|
...yep, I'll have to go and take a decent pic first though! Anything in particular that you would like to see?
I'm running the Delco 808 ECU (from a JE Camira/VP Commodore/VN Commodore/N13 Astra/N13 Pulsar) that has had the Real Time board fitted by the guys
at Injection Connection in Perth. Have a look at their Web site: http://www.kalmaker.com.au if you are interested in the ECU and software....
R
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on October 22nd, 2004 at 03:49 PM |
|
|
BTW, how critical is the distance between the ports and the TB?
coz I was thinking, if you could bring the induction tubes across the top of the motor and put the TBs right next to each other, you might be able to
solve the whole "linkage going out of adjustment so often" issue.
Didn't Lee Harris (dark green 58) have efi with quad TBs on his motor?
is he on the forum?
|
|
|
ratty 63
A.k.a.: Rossco
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1083
Threads: 74
Registered: October 1st, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast, Qld
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Just cured my shed envy!
|
| posted on October 22nd, 2004 at 04:00 PM |
|
|
the distance between the TB's and the ports is not all that important as far as I can tell (from the info that I have read). If you were going to go
to the bother of mounting Twin TB's side by side, to eliminate the linkage problem, you may as well just use a bigger single TB.
Remember that size of the intake manifold is not a important on an EFI system as it is on a Carbed car as you are only drawing air through the
manifold, not a fuel mix.
I have used a standard 1600 TP manifold center, with modified 1600 TP end castings (modified to hold the injectors), and an adaptor to allow me to
bolt the TB on to the manifold center....perhaps not the ultimalte way of doing things, but it definatly works!
I have to go to work now.... I'll be back later!
R
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on October 22nd, 2004 at 04:18 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by ratty 63
the distance between the TB's and the ports is not all that important as far as I can tell (from the info that I have read). If you were going to go
to the bother of mounting Twin TB's side by side, to eliminate the linkage problem, you may as well just use a bigger single TB.
Remember that size of the intake manifold is not a important on an EFI system as it is on a Carbed car as you are only drawing air through the
manifold, not a fuel mix.
|
OK, but why do the 20valve 4AGE motors and numourous other nutso factory NA motors run quad TBs?
They have to be good for something?
does anyone know what porsche use on their crazy NA motors these days?
|
|
|
VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on October 22nd, 2004 at 04:43 PM |
|
|
The distance between throttle plate and port is very important. Having a short distance between the throttle and the ports gives the best throttle
response, especially with no plenum - that way, the atmosphere pressure can fill your cylinders as soon as the throttle is cracked open, not have to
blow air through a long twisty messy labyrinth of pipes and chambers. Instant fill = instant throttle response and better power (less loss through
intake system). That's why many higher-performance cars have multiple throttle bodies
MAP (manifold actual pressure) on my planned management system/Beetle will be sensed from a remote 'vacuum chamber' ported to each throttle body...
I will possibly mount the IAC (idle air control) valve to this remote chamber, too. I have seen this doen before with success on 8TB V8s etc but there
is teh risk of the IAC affecting the MAP if both are plumbed to the one chamber - they may have to be independent to help 'dampen' vacuum pulses.
For thsi reason, I may possibly use TPS (throttle position sensing) for my idle control if the MAP method doesn't work... not sure yet....
[Edited on 22-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 22-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
bus914
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1230
Threads: 233
Registered: August 29th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Central Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Could be worse
|
| posted on October 22nd, 2004 at 09:40 PM |
|
|
Here’s a different theory: www.dune-buggy.com/turbo/intake.htm
|
|
|
VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on October 23rd, 2004 at 08:43 AM |
|
|
lol... thanks for the link, but with terms like 'expandable air', I didn't bother reading past the first sentence...
[Edited on 22-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
| Pages: 1 2 |
.JPG "Avatar")
