| [ Total Views: 777 | Total Replies: 31 | Thread Id: 35663 ] |
| Pages: 1 2 |
|
|
 pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on March 3rd, 2005 at 07:07 PM |
|
|
standard stroke for 1800 and 2L type 4s?
was reading a manual the other day for a late kombi. it said the standard stroke of all the type4 motors (1.7, 1.8, 2L) was 66mm.
Is that correct?
if that's true, can you put 2L pots and pistons straight onto an 1800 block?
|
|
|
Menangler
A.k.a.: Dave Becker
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1991
Threads: 309
Registered: August 26th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: South Coast NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on March 3rd, 2005 at 07:23 PM |
|
|
66mm is the 1700 and 1800, the 2 litre is 71mm
FAHRVERGNUGEN;
Description of a pleasurable sensation,
Experienced when a car and it's driver are in mutual harmony, A unique driving experience, Pleasure, Satisfaction,
A feeling experienced by Volkswagen Drivers.
 |
|
|
Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
23 Windows of Awesome
DAS Resto Haus
Posts: 5746
Threads: 289
Registered: August 26th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: feeling fine...
|
| posted on March 3rd, 2005 at 09:25 PM |
|
|
Dave is spot on with the crank sizes....
From http://www.tunacan.net/t4/tech/piston.htm (see link for more
info)
The 1700cc used a 90mm bore, 1800cc used a 93mm and the 2000cc(2.0L) used a 94mm bore. All of these pistons feature 24mm wrist pins and standard
skirts. The cylinders are generally interchangable, but the top of the 1.7 cylinders is smaller than the 1.8/2.0 cylinders. So retrofitting a 93mm set
of piston/cylinders to a 1.7 only requires flycutting the head to match the top of the 93mm cylinders.
The pistons were manufactured in various configurations. There were flat-top, dished and domed pistons for use the wide ranging applications of these
engines. The domed pistons were used to increase the compression ratio in applications such as the 914 and the Euro spec. 411/412s. The dished pistons
were used to decrease the compression ratio for use in the Transporter and in the 411/412 variants (station wagens). For the most part the high
compression ratio was 8.6:1 (domed pistons) and the low compression was 7.3:1 (dished pistons).
If you are looking to build an engine for a Bus, your safest bet is to stick with the 2.0L bore of 94mm. The extra weight and unyielding aerodynamics
make the engine work over time. You will need all of the extra cooling with the thicker cylinder walls. Save your money and get a longer stroke
crankshaft to get the low RPM torque that your Bus needs.
Plan carefully if you are thinking about mixing and matching stock pistons, cylinders, connecting rods, and cranks. The wrong combination can give you
too much deck height or move the piston out the top of the cylinder. For instance, installing 94mm piston/cylinder set on a 66mm cranks with stock
rods will yield way too much deck height. Installing 90mm or 93mm pistons on a stock 2.0 bottom end will push the piston out the top of the cylinder.
|
|
|
Jeza
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 353
Threads: 23
Registered: January 9th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Spinning
|
| posted on March 4th, 2005 at 05:45 AM |
|
|
Pete
If you check out the Type 4 store here
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/store/product.php?productid=16171&cat=...
Budget piston and cylinder kit 96mm for the 66mm crank- gives 1911cc.
Still not as cheap as a set of T1 P&C but much better than they used to be!
Cheers
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on March 4th, 2005 at 01:23 PM |
|
|
I guess that the 1800 and 2L litre blocks are identical then, right?
Thinking more about something in the 2.6L capacity. would I need to use a stroker crank for that? I'd prefer not to use one though. VW cranks are
best I reckon, I'd look into getting Stan to counterweight it maybe.
BTW, it's not for a kombi, wife hates them and besides, they need a much bigger engine. Like say a V6 or a 20Bt
|
|
|
Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
23 Windows of Awesome
DAS Resto Haus
Posts: 5746
Threads: 289
Registered: August 26th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: feeling fine...
|
| posted on March 4th, 2005 at 10:06 PM |
|
|
I'd strongly suggest (if you haven't done so already) to have a good look and research through :
http://tunacan.net/t4/
http://www.shoptalkforums.com in the type4rum and aircooledtechnology
forum
http://www.germanlook.com/Forums in the engine section
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com
Going to 2.6 will be a hell of a task. Be prepared to outlay a lot of cash. I know someone on this forum has run 103mm p&c's with 71mm crank. Not
sure how difficult it was or whether there were any head sealing issues. Make sure you do your research thats all 
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on March 5th, 2005 at 09:04 AM |
|
|
What setup do you have in ya rag top?
what is the capacity?
|
|
|
MUD BASHING ANYONE ??
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 591
Threads: 23
Registered: May 27th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Need to be inspired !!
|
| posted on March 5th, 2005 at 12:09 PM |
|
|
Have a look at this site dude there is heaps of cool stuff but no pistons and barrels the biggest i have seen is 105mm but thats huge them and a 82 mm
crank takes the old type 4 out to 2840cc wild hay http://www.bergmannracing.com
he is in alot of usa mags and if only we could get them here that cheap everyone would have a wild motor just like in the states
You only need two tools
Wd40 if it don't move and it should
Duct tape if it move's and it shouldn't
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on March 5th, 2005 at 12:36 PM |
|
|
Haven't heard good things about Bermann motors. Rather build one out here
|
|
|
MUD BASHING ANYONE ??
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 591
Threads: 23
Registered: May 27th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Need to be inspired !!
|
| posted on March 5th, 2005 at 04:41 PM |
|
|
they cant be that bad as penrose runs a 82mm full circle in his blue bug and what have you herd as i will be building a big type 4 soon
You only need two tools
Wd40 if it don't move and it should
Duct tape if it move's and it shouldn't
|
|
|
Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
23 Windows of Awesome
DAS Resto Haus
Posts: 5746
Threads: 289
Registered: August 26th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: feeling fine...
|
| posted on March 5th, 2005 at 06:14 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
What setup do you have in ya rag top?
what is the capacity?
|
71mm crank, 94.5mm (slightly oversize) pistons and barrels, 2L case and heads (but with 1800 valves which are slightly bigger than the 2L), slightly
lightened 215mm flywheel, everything dynamically balanced.
Mallory unilite vac/mechanical advance dizzy, 40 dells with update kit....etc
Just a nice mild but healthy (and hopefully torquey) engine.
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on March 5th, 2005 at 09:54 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by MUD BASHING ANYONE ??
they cant be that bad as penrose runs a 82mm full circle in his blue bug and what have you herd as i will be building a big type 4 soon
|
Be interesting to know how good the crank is in terms of heat treating. Thats the main complaint about US cranks normally.
Most of the stories I have heard about Bergmann relate to complete motors. Exy and wear out quick. They could be wrong, but I'd rather have someone
over here build one for me. At least then you can do something if they try and screw you around.
|
|
|
MUD BASHING ANYONE ??
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 591
Threads: 23
Registered: May 27th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Need to be inspired !!
|
| posted on March 6th, 2005 at 08:49 AM |
|
|
Ah thats interesting thanks mate and to true about being able to drive to the place that build your crank aleast you can take it back if it dont last
i would say that bergman would be very reluctant to give you another if the first doesn't last
You only need two tools
Wd40 if it don't move and it should
Duct tape if it move's and it shouldn't
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on March 6th, 2005 at 07:44 PM |
|
|
Mudbashing,
Hans Klaack (Klaack Motors) told me there's a place in OZ that does good VW stroker cranks.
Das,
Had a look at the DTM site. I'm sure Jake Raby builds good stuff but US$2.3K for Pistons? Pretty exy, that and he claims they are the only ones that
will last. That's a pretty big claim and it's dependant on a whole swag of variables, not the least of them the driver.
Where did you get ya pistons from and what are they, forged or cast?
[Edited on 6-3-2005 by pete wood]
|
|
|
Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
23 Windows of Awesome
DAS Resto Haus
Posts: 5746
Threads: 289
Registered: August 26th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: feeling fine...
|
| posted on March 6th, 2005 at 08:36 PM |
|
|
Yeah that is a bit over the top for pistons and he is not shy about making those sort of claims for things he endorses. Before they came along (I am
assuming the nickies is what he is talking about), I'm sure he was singing the praises of whatever he used saying they were the only things that
lasted! Don't get me wrong he knows his stuff, I priced a 2270 kit form from him way back and at US$4000 approx (from memory), it was a little too
much.
I reused my original barrels and had them slightly clearanced for the 94.5mm pistons (which I think are cast and were sourced from Leon's motors I
think (was a long time ago!)). Had them all balanced at Crankshaft Engineering here in Brissy.
|
|
|
Andy
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Andy's Adventures
Posts: 2820
Threads: 181
Registered: November 5th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Happy Man
|
| posted on March 6th, 2005 at 09:21 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
71mm crank, 94.5mm (slightly oversize) pistons and barrels, 2L case and heads (but with 1800 valves which are slightly bigger than the 2L), slightly
lightened 215mm flywheel, everything dynamically balanced.
Mallory unilite vac/mechanical advance dizzy, 40 dells with update kit....etc
Just a nice mild but healthy (and hopefully torquey) engine.
|
Dasdubber, didn't you do some cam work also? If so what grind did you get?
Also note 1.8L and 2L head combustion chambers are disfferent, so 1.8L heads and 1.8L valves in a 2L head are not necessarily the same! (I have not
run motors with both so can't compare).
|
|
|
MUD BASHING ANYONE ??
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 591
Threads: 23
Registered: May 27th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Need to be inspired !!
|
| posted on March 6th, 2005 at 10:34 PM |
|
|
Hay pete do you happen to have more contact info on this stroker crank man. And $4000 for pistons and barrels gees what are we building here a top
fuel dragster or somthing i dont know what there worth but that seams way way out there and 2270cc is that 103mm bore?
You only need two tools
Wd40 if it don't move and it should
Duct tape if it move's and it shouldn't
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on March 6th, 2005 at 10:42 PM |
|
|
I've been thinking, once you get up to 2.5l, the pistons would be around the same size as some popular V8s. Be worth looking into that, We could buy
one set between a pair of us and build two motors. Lot's more to chose from too.
What do you guys think?
|
|
|
Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
23 Windows of Awesome
DAS Resto Haus
Posts: 5746
Threads: 289
Registered: August 26th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: feeling fine...
|
| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 08:13 AM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Andy
Dasdubber, didn't you do some cam work also? If so what grind did you get?
Also note 1.8L and 2L head combustion chambers are disfferent, so 1.8L heads and 1.8L valves in a 2L head are not necessarily the same! (I have not
run motors with both so can't compare).
|
I just had the stock cam reground - nothing wild...can't recall the specs off hand (I did get them though because I had to give them to the exhaust
shop when they built the extractors/muffler. You are right about the heads....yep I used 2L heads with the larger 1.8 valves as indicated above.
Supposedly the 2L combustion chamber shape had some advantages over the 1.8L (after doing a lot of reading on shoptalkforums.com) hence why I went
with 2L heads.
|
|
|
Andy
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Andy's Adventures
Posts: 2820
Threads: 181
Registered: November 5th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Happy Man
|
| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 08:52 AM |
|
|
Thanks dasdubber,
I'd be interested to know!
There where a lot of different stock ones (don't have specs at hand). But 1.8L, 2L solid lifters, 2L hydro lifters were all different. I think 1.8L
gave highest lift and 2L solid/hydro were same lift but different profile from memory.
Good to know the exhaust guy wanted these specs!!
So other than carbs, dissy, exhaust you have a reasonably stock motor?
Should be fun in a bug :thumb
So when do we see it running 
|
|
|
Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
23 Windows of Awesome
DAS Resto Haus
Posts: 5746
Threads: 289
Registered: August 26th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: feeling fine...
|
| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 10:38 AM |
|
|
Yeah should be good fun Richard! Whenever that will be!! Hopefully before the May show at cleveland.
Pete, see this post for some interesting info...just some info on a 2.6L that was built:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2804
|
|
|
Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
23 Windows of Awesome
DAS Resto Haus
Posts: 5746
Threads: 289
Registered: August 26th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: feeling fine...
|
| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 11:42 AM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
I've been thinking, once you get up to 2.5l, the pistons would be around the same size as some popular V8s. Be worth looking into that, We could buy
one set between a pair of us and build two motors. Lot's more to chose from too.
What do you guys think?
|
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=84999
That post is quite relevant to what you are asking.
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 01:28 PM |
|
|
Umm, yep, but they're pinto 4 cyl pistons.
I was thinking V8 pistons. I mean, anything round 5litres would have to be close. eg, Holden 308, Chev 307, Ford 289, 302 or late 5l, Chrysler 318.
And I am sure there are more available too. They're just the most common ones.
Anyone know what size pistons these motors use?
For a 105mm we are looking for a 4.29inch bore.
As for barrels, We might even be able to hunt round for a common big aircooled twin (ie bike, like a harley or K series Bimmer) and have them modded
to fit.
We don't have to do what the yanks do, Aussies figured out things their own way before the internet was invented. Most of the time we did it better.
Let's just steal their best ideas.
|
|
|
Andy
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Andy's Adventures
Posts: 2820
Threads: 181
Registered: November 5th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Happy Man
|
| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 01:34 PM |
|
|
This is way out my league, but I don't see motor bike barrels fitting, jap stuff are one piece (multi cylinders) and singles have allowance for cam
drives etc.
K BMW is water cooled, R BMW (aluminium) would be much dearer than aftermarket VW barrels....
Matching V8 pistons means finding the right pin height otherwise things get all out of wack.
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 01:40 PM |
|
|
cool, just brain stroming that's all, but I was assuming you'd have to match the pistons anyway in dimension and etc. It just seems that the price
of us Type 4 performance parts is astronomical and there's probably a common factory part for another car that is very similar and much cheaper.
That's the way people used to do it before we all got rich and stupid.
|
|
|
Jeza
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 353
Threads: 23
Registered: January 9th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Spinning
|
| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 01:48 PM |
|
|
Have a look here
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=80099
They talk about using Duetz cylinders (Diesel cylinders?) (and page 2)
but the Aussies have certainly come up with some very ingenious kit of their own, using commonly available parts, which is nicer than taking the "if
I throw more money at it, it will work" approach 
Cheers
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 02:20 PM |
|
|
that post is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about :thumb
|
|
|
Andy
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Andy's Adventures
Posts: 2820
Threads: 181
Registered: November 5th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Happy Man
|
| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 03:18 PM |
|
|
I knew it had all come up before. Phil's the man!
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=6876#pid52158
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=5872#pid44602
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=7123#pid54417
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=3862#pid27547
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=4911#pid36320
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=3729#pid26105
And plenty more if you want to search!!!
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 05:57 PM |
|
|
mm, Poor old Doug Pobjoy copped a hiding, however, he was preaching his father's 'no stroker' gospel so it was bound to happen.
In my experience 3 things kill motors, Bad tuning (& lack of maintanance), too much boost (turboes), or too many revs. If you build it carefully
to begin with, tune it right and treat it with respect, most motors last forever, and that includes race motors.
Ok, I'll fess up now. I'm think about building a Type4 motor up for a squareback auto. I don't have a car or a motor yet, they're at least 18
months away. I like my buggy, but I'm sick of the wind noise and I want an aircooled motor next, maybe I'm getting old and sentimental.
Anyway, here's the idea, big cubes, low compression and 8-10pds of boost (turbo or blower?), intercooler and aftermarket EFI. I want a high torque,
low revving cruiser that can turn tyres at 3500revs. Red line of 5500revs. Type3 auto tranny. I reckon the type4 is the go.
Any thoughts now?
|
|
|
Jeza
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 353
Threads: 23
Registered: January 9th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Spinning
|
| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 06:50 PM |
|
|
Yes
Look up the shoptalk forums for moggy and then look for the yahoo group he started dealing with super chargers.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=77587&highlight=
Moggy has a super charged T4, that hes toyed with for a long time.
I reckon super charger might be the better go, as they provide boost straight off the line with no lag hence lots of torque immediately.
This is all bench racing though as I only have the reading I've done (Forced Induction Performance Tuning, A. Graham Bell, and the web) to back it
up. Hopefully some day I'll have some actual engine experience.
I'm also thinking Tubo or super charger, mostly because I like the idea of small and efficient- and not necessarily high revs.
You'll find a lot of discouragement on STF re forced induction on a T4, plenty of talk about difficulty sealing heads and the like. However the
occasional European sticks his neck out and says he's succesfully tried it, unlike most of the Yanks that I guess have only talked about it!
Sounds like a fun project
Cheers
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
|
|
|
| Pages: 1 2 |
